The New Time Warner Center

[Fat Guy]

eGNY News Team contributor Eden Blum recently attended an architectural preview of three of the much-anticipated new restaurants in the Time Warner Center and has a report in The Daily Gullet.

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[FoodMan]

Per Se? Does that stand for anything or is just Per Se?

Elie

[bloviatrix]

I love how in many articles about the Time Warner Center's 3rd and 4th floors (where the restaurants are located) as a "food court."

[knifehandchop]

The "Per Se" come from Keller commenting that the restaurant would not be like the

French Laundry, per se.

[jogoode]

I certainly didn't expect Kunz to open a place you could visit 8-10 times a year. I wonder if his restaurant's proximity to Keller's has something to do with its concept as a very different kind of destination. The thought of having two high-end french restaurants opening on different floors of the same building is strange, as if Daniel moved to the third floor of the Trump at Columbus Circle. But I guess there will be a rather absurd cluster in the area when all this is done.

[Fat Guy]

Kunz has been saying for years that he wants to open a casual place, and people have been saying for years that he wouldn't know casual dining if it jumped up and bit him in the nose. It will be interesting to see what Kunz's interpretation of casual dining is, and it will also be interesting to see what direction the public pushes the restaurant in. After all, restaurant pricing in the abstract tends to run in a much narrower range than people assume. As an absolute matter, there is no restaurant in New York that charges more than $200 for food (with the exception of truffle tasting menus and the like). So really, most middle-class people could afford to do that more than once a year. Not to mention, even the four-star places usually have $50-or-less option: I think you can have lunch at Jean Georges or Bouley for about $36, can't you? What really distinguishes pricing is the way people use a restaurant. That the dinner prix-fixe at Gramercy Tavern is $65 while the prix-fixe at Jean Georges is $85 doesn't really tell the whole story. What happens from there is that people see Jean Georges as a fancier restaurant, so they spend more on wine, they are more likely to order add-ons, etc. So all of a sudden Gramercy Tavern may be collecting half the amount of money per cover as Jean Georges, even though there's only a $20 difference in menu pricing. Cafe Gray may sell $30 entrees -- just as a hypothetical price point -- but does that mean the check average will be $30, or will the customers eat lengthy, elaborate meals with serious wine and average in closer to the Jean Georges level of things? The better Kunz cooks at this place, the harder it will be for him to realize his casual goals. Look, for example, at Cafe Boulud -- I think it's safe to say that the customers took that decision out of Daniel Boulud's hands. He talked a lot about a cafe, and about how people could go in jeans, but I've never seen anybody there wearing in jeans and all the foodies who go there spend about the same amount of money on dinner as they would at Daniel.

[R Washburn]

and about how people could go in jeans, but I've never seen anybody there wearing in jeans

I have. However, most patrons make an effort to dress for dinner there.

[Fat Guy]

I've also found that the customers at Cafe Boulud are on the whole better dressed than those at Daniel.

[jogoode]

all the foodies who go there spend about the same amount of money on dinner as they would at Daniel.

yeah, if you want a tasting of any sort, it costs you something like $20/dish. I'd love that place even more if I could wear jeans. but everyone in that area shuffles around in slacks and jackets anyway, except for you steven

how high do you think PerSe's prices will go? I'd heard he was going to charge thesame as at TFL, but I think if he has any sense he'll charge $30-50 more.

[Fat Guy]

He's charging $120 in Yountville for the tasting menu, plus a $25 supplement for the foie gras choice (not an extra course -- that's what you pay to choose foie gras over a vegetable). At $145 for nine tiny courses, that already prices him higher than any of the four-star New York restuarants other than Ducasse. I can't even imagine he's going to be able to compare favorably at that price point -- but then again I've not found his cooking as impressive as some. It will certainly be interesting to see him cook off against Jean Georges, Daniel, et al. -- something he has not had to do in California. It might be smart for him to go up to $175 so he can compete by buying more and better ingredients, but I think if he goes up that high, he's going to get killed in the PR department.

[jogoode]

I'm bored in anticipation of hearing why Per Se not being as good as TFL and how now TFL isn't the same either without Keller's full attention.

I think Daniel has an 8-course tasting for $160

[Fat Guy]

The last time I was there it was $140, but it certainly could have gone up. Were I in Keller's shoes, however, I'd be certain not to go above whatever the other non-ADNY four-stars are charging -- at least not at first. If he can generate the positive reviews and the buzz, he can go up in price. But if he underwhelms, which I think he might, he'll get killed if he tries to charge higher than Daniel.

Of course it will be nearly impossible for him to open at the French Laundry's level of quality and consistency. Reviewers and customers will need to take that into account: new restaurants have problems for which you need to discount. But what I'm saying is that Keller's food, even in its most flawless presentation, may not impress New Yorkers here as much as it impresses New Yorkers on vacation. I think those who have visited and written about the French Laundry have long ignored the outsize effect the setting has on customers, and I don't personally find Keller's cuisine to be particularly impressive. But we'll have to wait and see.

[IrishCream]

You are all so lucky to have Thomas Keller opening in New York. I ate at the French Laundry last month and the tasting menu is now $135 (plus, and well worth, the $25 supplement for the foie gras) for a delicious, complex, "perfect" meal. The California board has several long and descriptive threads about FL. Several of the reviews come from eGullet's most experienced diners and they are overwhelmingly favorable. So, I must disagree with Fat Guy that the atmosphere is what makes it so attractive. It was the food, baby! The night I was there temps were in the high 90's, the AC was not working...it was hot. All of which became unimportant as soon as we started eating. The food took over.

Rejoice!

[jogoode]

IrishCream,

I'm sure Fat Guy enjoyed his meal but when expectations are that high, it is difficult to be utterly impressed. It's idyllic and out-of-the-way location add to its atmosphere and the effect this atmosphere has on the diner, much like a Michelin 3-star -- this effect boosts some opinions and detracts from others. When the restaurant is readily accessible to people who are used to having constant access to a similarly high level of dining, it might not shine quite as brightly.

[Fat Guy]

Or maybe he'll blow everyone else away. It will be interesting to see how the side-by-side comparison goes, either way.

[bloviatrix]

William Grimes looks at the forthcoming "food court" the Time Warner Center in today's NY Times.

Yes, It's a Mall. But a Far Cry From the Food Court

The names are imposing. On the fourth floor, Thomas Keller will preside over Per Se, an East Coast version of the French Laundry, his almost mythic restaurant in the Napa Valley.

Jean-Georges Vongerichten, whose flagship restaurant, Jean Georges, is just across Columbus Circle, will run a New York version of Prime, his hugely successful steak house in Las Vegas. His neighbor will be Masa Takayama, a Japanese chef whose dinners at Ginza Sushiko in Beverly Hills ran $250 per person ($300 during blowfish season). Mr. Takayama has closed the California restaurant and will open Asayoshi in the complex, where he will be pleased to serve a $500 dinner.

One floor down, diners will find two larger, less expensive restaurants, but two instantly recognizable names. Gray Kunz, who lifted Lespinasse, in the St. Regis Hotel, to star status, will run Café Gray, a large brasserie with an Eastern European flavor. Last week, Charlie Trotter, the highly acclaimed chef and owner of Charlie Trotter's in Chicago, signed on to open a seafood restaurant.

[glenn]

Mr. Takayama has closed the California restaurant and will open Asayoshi in the complex, where he will be pleased to serve a $500 dinner.

This is the part that made me roll over and gag. No, not because I don't have $500 in disposable income for a friggin' dinner (I don't), but the probability that enough people are gonna gladly fork over this kind of dough over something as nonessential and trivial as dinner. I wonder if that price includes tip. And with only 9 seats and a sushi bar, is this really a restaurant? I'm beginning to wonder if all the doomsayers were right about the significance of the fire and ice in California.

[fifi]

I will join you in the gagging session... and I'm not even a liberal.

Sorry... There is not a whole lot of food out there that is worth $500 for one dinner. Especially not "bait".

Seriously, is that really true? $500 for dinner? Sorry, I can't think of anything that would be worth $500. And, as I think of it, I could afford that. But I wouldn't. Sort of a value for price thing.

[Fat Guy]

You can go to any of several dozen sushi restaurants in New York right now and spend $500 on dinner if you order a lot of exotic pieces. At most any top-tier French restaurant, you can push your food bill up into the $300-$400 range during white truffle season and if you order caviar as a supplement. It's hardly remarkable to see prices that high, and of course every night at those restaurants people are ordering bottles of wine that cost $1,000 or even, on occasion, $10,000 or more.

I wonder what the $500 refers to, exactly. Is that a minimum, a maximum, or an average? Is there also a $50 lunch, or can you really just not go to the restaurant unless you have $500 to spend? This is the sort of comment -- "where he will be pleased to serve a $500 dinner" -- that seems calculated to drive both the liberal-guilt audience and the New York Post audience through the roof, but it's sufficiently vague to leave me wondering what it really means.

[Fat Guy]

eG administrative note: we've combined a couple of threads to create this one, and it seems that over time we've accumulated about a dozen threads on the Time Warner Center restaurants (perhaps a good samaritan will post a list of links here, for reference). Until the restaurants actually start opening, however, let's keep all the Time Warner Center restaurant discussion on this thread. Once there are actual restaurants to talk about, we can have a new thread for each of them.

[bloviatrix]

The print edition of the Times (p.38 in the Metro section, for those of you who have it) contains a chart of "the players" to use their words. They have a photo of each chef, provide the restuarant name (with the exception of J-G and CT who haven't decided), explain the cuisine, gives the number of tables and the approximate cost of dinner for one. Costs are as follows:

Per Se: $135

Jean-George steakhouse: $80 - $120

Asayoshi: $500

CT fish: $70

Cafe Gray: $55 - $75

Asiate: $65

[Bux]

(Mr. Himmel puts the cost of Per Se, Mr. Keller's restaurant, at more than $12 million. That's more than four times the cost of Rocco's on 22nd, the restaurant in the Flatiron district whose birth pangs were chronicled in the  NBC reality series "The Restaurant.")

I remember when Kunz redid the kitchen, just the kitchen, at Lespinasse and it was the first million dollar kitchen. I also distinctly recall that when Daniel reopened on Park Avenue, the tab (for the restaurant renovation, not dinner) was said to be $12 million.

So Trotter is finally in.

It will be interesting to see the effect of having these restaurants all in the same ... er, mall. It's not like "let's go down to the mall and if we can't get in to Per Se we can have some sushi next door." These are destination places. Perhaps there will be an electronic board near the elevators for those who can never make reservations--"Immedate seating in _______."

[robyn]

I will join you in the gagging session... and I'm not even a liberal.

Sorry... There is not a whole lot of food out there that is worth $500 for one dinner. Especially not "bait".

Seriously, is that really true? $500 for dinner? Sorry, I can't think of anything that would be worth $500. And, as I think of it, I could afford that. But I wouldn't. Sort of a value for price thing.

I have only eaten big deal Japanese food a few times in my life (in Hawaii - and on the west coast of the United States and Canada). The prices of the raw ingredients are extraordinarily expensive to start with in Japan - and high end chefs tend to fly them in daily from Japan - because the types of fish and cuts of fish they want to serve aren't available here.

I never ate at Ginza Sushiko in Los Angeles (which was tiny) - but I did eat sushi at larger restaurants with equally good reputations. Average cost was about $150/person only for food. And you're not talking about people with enormous appetites. At the last place I went to - the best tuna was about $20 per piece (and it was worth it - the kind of tuna I've had at the best places out west isn't anything like I've found in the east). Ginza Sushiko was always more expensive because it had to spread its overhead (including rent in a very high rent area) over a much smaller number of diners.

For what it's worth - my favorite Japanese isn't sushi - it's the long formal dinner composed of many small courses. There is a specific name for it - but I forget what it is. A lot of the dishes I've had were so exquisite they didn't even look like food. And don't forget all the costs in addition to food (like 12 table settings for each diner - you really need a lot of dishes - and they have to be really nice dishes to boot). Robyn

[robyn]

You can go to any of several dozen sushi restaurants in New York right now and spend $500 on dinner if you order a lot of exotic pieces. At most any top-tier French restaurant, you can push your food bill up into the $300-$400 range during white truffle season and if you order caviar as a supplement. It's hardly remarkable to see prices that high, and of course every night at those restaurants people are ordering bottles of wine that cost $1,000 or even, on occasion, $10,000 or more.

I wonder what the $500 refers to, exactly. Is that a minimum, a maximum, or an average? Is there also a $50 lunch, or can you really just not go to the restaurant unless you have $500 to spend? This is the sort of comment -- "where he will be pleased to serve a $500 dinner" -- that seems calculated to drive both the liberal-guilt audience and the New York Post audience through the roof, but it's sufficiently vague to leave me wondering what it really means.

At Ginza Sushiko in Beverly Hills - the price (which was about $300 last time I was in Los Angeles) was a fixed price for omikase dinner. If you went there - that's what it cost. So I suspect the $500 is a fixed omikase dinner price too (unless there are optional seasonal supplements that might increase the price).

I think the higher price in New York is probably due: 1) to higher rent (the place in Beverly Hills was in a high rent district - but it was on the second or third floor of a somewhat pedestrian building that also housed a parking garage if I remember correctly); and 2) to higher shipping costs for the raw ingredients. Robyn

[robyn]

IrishCream,

I'm sure Fat Guy enjoyed his meal but when expectations are that high, it is difficult to be utterly impressed. It's idyllic and out-of-the-way location add to its atmosphere and the effect this atmosphere has on the diner, much like a Michelin 3-star -- this effect boosts some opinions and detracts from others. When the restaurant is readily accessible to people who are used to having constant access to a similarly high level of dining, it might not shine quite as brightly.

I have never eaten at the FL - but I have eaten at many fine restaurants in the countryside of France (and other countries). I have also eaten at many fine "city restaurants". One type of experience isn't necessarily better than the other - they're just very different. You don't go out in Manhattan in the morning to pick fresh herbs out of your herb garden. So one important issue will be whether Keller can migrate from a successful "country environment" to a successful "big city environment".

Another important issue will be whether he decides to do a "one seating" restaurant (which I suspect the FL is - and which is very unusual in New York City) - or a "multi-seating" restaurant (which is the norm). I don't know how anyone can do 15 little courses in a multi-seating restaurant without pissing everyone off (everyone will have to eat at 6 or 10). On the other hand - his economics will be very different depending on this decision. I seem to recall that he owns the place where the FL is - and that he bought it a long time ago. So his overhead is fairly fixed - and probably relatively low. I assume he is paying rent in New York - and that it isn't relatively low. So the decision of which way to go may determine whether or not he succeeds financially.

I'll note that when you talk about the meal prices in various big cities - the prices can vary a lot even if the food is the same depending on how many seatings the place is trying to do. The more seatings - the less overhead every diner has to pay. That's one reason a restaurant like AD is so expensive - there's usually one seating - and that one seating is paying the overhead for the table for the night. Most of New York seemed to resent AD for doing this - because it was highly unusual for New York. On the other hand - it would have been the norm in Paris. Robyn