SELLING Reservations in Philly

[Vadouvan]

I has been discussed in other cities but I wonder how Philadelphians feel about the fact that primetimetables intends to expand into philadelphia as is obvious from thier website.

http://www.primetimetables.com/

I think it's the absolute worst opportunistic idea that makes dining out less democratic.

Can they pull it off here ?

Probative discussion of the issue definitely trumps any awareness they may gain from this thread.

Any thoughts people ?

I highly doubt loads of people are going to pay an extra 50 bucks to eat at 7.30pm ?

[wkl]

i seriously doubt i would ever pay for a reservation. maybe if it was the only way to get into per se or some restaurant of that ilk.

i can't see this taking off in the philly market. maybe among some business people with big expense accounts, but even then i could see an internal auditor questioning the charge if it came up alot.

i don't believe the restaurant shares in this fee, which kinda sucks for the restaurant.

does anyone know if this has really caught on in new york? is it a profitable venture for prime tables?

[philadining]

I can't imagine it working in Philly. There just aren't that many places where it's that hard to get a reservation. Yep, Amada is still tricky at prime times. Osteria is going to be booked solid on weekends for a few months, but that will calm down.

I just can't think of that many places that a service like this would help with. And I don't know anybody who would pay for it...

I don't know how it works, but I'd think that restaurants would be annoyed by some outside service gaming their books, and would eventually flag those names and numbers somehow. But I'm not in the biz, maybe restaurants don't care as long as there are butts in seats.

[Vadouvan]

I can't imagine it working in Philly. There just aren't that many places where it's that hard to get a reservation. Yep, Amada is still tricky at prime times. Osteria is going to be booked solid on weekends for a few months, but that will calm down.

I just can't think of that many places that a service like this would help with. And I don't know anybody who would pay for it...

I don't know how it works, but I'd think that restaurants would be annoyed by some outside service gaming their books, and would eventually flag those names and numbers somehow. But I'm not in the biz, maybe restaurants don't care as long as there are butts in seats.

Well it seems Danny Meyer is against it, but as you mention, maybe restaurants dont care as long as you show up.

The issue though is that when you buy the reservation, they give you an assumed name which the reservation is booked under so you can claim it.

BUT you have to pay first.....it's tricky but legal.

[etalanian]

What happens with restaurants that require a credit card for a reservation? I guess the "service" doesn't deal with those restaurants?

Just sounds so sleazy.

[Vadouvan]

Thats the big problem Elaine......I am afraid it's going to move a lot of restaurants towards requiring a credit card for reservations just like the hotel industry evolved.

I dont eat anywhere that requires a credit card for a reservation with the single exception of PerSe and that was more about paying for the meal before you saw the bill so it didnt ruin your digestion.

I would think OPENTABLE isnt too happy either....

Edited February 21, 2007 by Vadouvan (log)

[Tim Dolan]

I think it's way too obnoxious to work in Philly. I also agree that there are probably too few places in Philly for Primetables to extort to make it worth their while.

[nikkib]

Unless you are prepared to hold back tables or be more flexible with your reservation systems i don't think theres anyway of stopping it though.

[Diann]

Unless you are prepared to hold back tables or be more flexible with your reservation systems i don't think theres anyway of stopping it though.

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You can stop it with lack of customer demand -- Philly restaurants are great, but I think the French Laundry is the only restaurant in the world where I woulld even consider purchasing a reservation.

And yeah, it does seem sleazy...

[Tim Dolan]

BUT you have to pay first.....it's tricky but legal.

←

It's like scalping tickets at a game. It's illegal to buy tickets on the street straight from scalpers, but somehow websites like stubhub and razorgator do major business. I've never understood that.

Edited February 21, 2007 by Tim Dolan (log)

[Andrew Fenton]

I can't imagine it working in Philly.  There just aren't that many places where it's that hard to get a reservation. Yep, Amada is still tricky at prime times. Osteria is going to be booked solid on weekends for a few months, but that will calm down.

I just can't think of that many places that a service like this would help with. And I don't know anybody who would pay for it...

Right. I suspect that this scheme only really works for high-end restaurants. And the high-end restaurant market in Philadelphia just isn't that big. If you're going to be spending a few hundred dollars for a dinner, then a $50 surcharge isn't that big a deal. But how many restaurants are there here that are in that range, and tough for reservations? Maybe 10-15, at a very generous guess?

Seems like the really h-o-t-t tables are at less expensive places (like Osteria), where that $50 will represent a much bigger chunk of a night's entertainment. I doubt that too many cheapskate Philadelphians will pony up that cash...

[KatieLoeb]

It's an offensive and absurd concept in any city, but particularly here, where there aren't enough high-end places that are high demand every night as well.

I suggest we subvert this by offering up reservations on Craigslist for free just to piss them off and drive them out of town...

[Vadouvan]

Seems like the really h-o-t-t tables are at less expensive places (like Osteria), where that $50 will represent a much bigger chunk of a night's entertainment. I doubt that too many cheapskate Philadelphians will pony up that cash...

True Andrew but even in NYC, it mainly appeals to those who see the act of getting a reservation as sport, you know those people...the "Financial services - My hedge fund and Salsichon is bigger than yours"

[Andrew Fenton]

Seems like the really h-o-t-t tables are at less expensive places (like Osteria), where that $50 will represent a much bigger chunk of a night's entertainment. I doubt that too many cheapskate Philadelphians will pony up that cash...

True Andrew but even in NYC, it mainly appeals to those who see the act of getting a reservation as sport, you know those people...the "Financial services - My hedge fund and Salsichon is bigger than yours"

←

Of course! But there aren't nearly as many of those people here. (Whew!)

[shacke]

This is easily defended against by the establishment. If they really care, during peak table times, tell the caller that at the time of the reservation that they will check an ID or take a credit card number, dont charge it and ask that they present it when they arrive for verification.

Sound weird? Well thats easy to fix if its a real problem.

Personally, I might have been tempted to do it for Babbo, TFl or Per Se where the elitist process of getting a table is even more moronic. Talk about jumping through hoops.

Evan

[Vadouvan]

Unless you are prepared to hold back tables or be more flexible with your reservation systems i don't think theres anyway of stopping it though.

Actually I just did a quick simple excel spreadsheet.

You can directly put them out of business but you would have to spend between 5 and 10 grand.

Here is how it works.....

Basically it would require co-operation of several restaurants.

Call primetime tables, buy a reservation and pay them.

Cross-reference the reservation with the contact phone number.

Share that phone number with all restaurants involved.

Take NO reservations from that number.

Use caller ID.

SO they change the phone number.

Repeat the process and continue to cross reference resrvation/phone number/caller ID.

They will need to either continue to get ...

1. New phone land lines. (prohibitively expensive and timewise a pain in the ass dealing with

NYNEX...now Bell or whatever.

2. Disposable cellphones like drug dealers in HBO show "The Wire"

again stupidly expensive unless your profits are based on cocaine instead of reservations.

YOU spend $40 to 50 each time, but each time you isolate a phone number.

There is no way they can sustain that much of a direct assault.

It would certainly change thier "free profit no actual commodity" business model and at the very deal make thier lives a pain in the ass.

If I won the lottery, I would do it purely for the pleasure.......

[Jeff L]

I don't really think this service will work in Philly. First, as already mentioned, too few higher end places where this would even have a prayer of working, and secondly, I think too few people would part with the $50 to make it a success even if there were enough restos.

I think it's obnoxious and hope that everyone else will too. We all know how frustrating it is to wait weeks, sometimes even a month, for a table at an in demand place (This is why I still haven't been to Vetri) Imagine sitting next to someone who paid for their res that day after you waited for weeks to get in. OK, it's a free market society lest I piss off the libertarians (where have they disappeared to?) so let's just let it fail on it's own.

[Capaneus]

Heh. Here I go again, I suppose.

Why exactly is this especially offensive? Given that its existence presupposes I wouldn't have been able to get a reservation for one of these restaurants on short notice anyway, it's taking nothing away from me. If (not really able to imagine it, but...) I decide to pay for it, it does provide me an alternative I wouldn't have had otherwise. What am I meant to be angry about again?

Now, I can understand why restaurateurs would be fuming, but that's a different issue, surely.

[Vadouvan]

[Capaneus]

"Why exactly is this especially offensive? Given that its existence presupposes I wouldn't have been able to get a reservation for one of these restaurants on short notice anyway, it's taking nothing away from me."

You are missing the point completely.It's because the "Operation buys the reservations" way ahead.

You would *not* be able to get long term reservations in peak hours either ......because they are buying "making it" 6 to 8 weeks out and sellling it as the time gets closer.

Many  restauranteurs see it as a subversion of thier reservation system.

Cmon Pedro they give you fake names for christ's sake...Jesus....

←

Meh.

For there to be a market for the reservations, there has to be a scarcity in place prior to these bottom-feeders stepping in. Otherwise, demand wouldn't exist. So a casual occasional user like myself will see no change in circumstances from any of this.

The fake names... That just tells me something about how their interaction with the restaurants is going. The industry is clearly not terribly happy with them, though I'm having some trouble understanding the whys and wherefores of that reaction too. Yes, I get "subversion of their reservation system", which translates to me to "Vee haff ze classical trainink und vee are zee kontroll freaks und you vill do as you're told because it is the Keller/Bocuse/whoever Expericence and it is GUT for you!" What I finally don't get is exactly what harm is being done.

And of course, being an unpleasant cuss, it occurs to me that this all happens in the context of a multi-tiered reservation system already being run by restaurants, who have always favored people-who-aren't-me with special access. I know schadenfreude isn't nice, but it really can be pleasant, in carefully-controlled doses.

Edited February 22, 2007 by Capaneus (log)

[guzzirider]

Well, if I ran a restaurant that had to deal with selling of my reservations, I'd be pissed simply because somebody else would be making money off of me, without actually doing a damn thing.

In my mind, its not unlike me opening a restaurant, and then somebody coming along, hording all the nearby parking, and then putting up a sign that says "VIP Parking for Jason's Restaurant: $50". I'd be after them with a tire iron.

What I want to know is, what kind of no-show volume do these places create? If they reserve say, 4 tables on a busy night and only sell one of them, thats 3 no-shows for tables that quite possibly would have been filled if they weren't hoarded in advance.

Just seems shady to me.

__Jason

[townsend]

The reason that restaurants are not happy is this. Any seasoned reservation manager can pretty much nail the books for a given evening. All the factors; time of year, day of the week, weather, etc. are taken into account when booking/overbooking/maximizing space and time (which is necessary for the restaurant to stay open, and guests to have access). When those variables change, how the book is managed changes. Less or more risk is introduced, and the restaurant is left to assume that risk. Not the guest. Not the 'service'. The restaurant in effect has to hope they can 'sell' (both figuratively and literally) their product.

In Philly there is no market for this service. Most reservations will go unused a greater percentage of the time. The majority of people won't even know this service exists, and it will end up making it even harder to plan a night out at Vetri. Coincidentally, I think that is the number one restaurant that this will hurt, based on the percentage of prime tables they will book (1 resy in an eight table room, you do the math). And please, no talking about 'regular' guests also cancelling. Over time, they do this at a predictable rate that can be accounted for.

From a guests' POV, they are competing with you for something they don't want. They just know you do, and if they can beat you to the punch, you then have to decide whether or not you want to give up $50. Lunch money arbitrage, how schoolyard...

[etalanian]

What I want to know is, what kind of no-show volume do these places create? If they reserve say, 4 tables on a busy night and only sell one of them, thats 3 no-shows for tables that quite possibly would have been filled if they weren't hoarded in advance.

Just seems shady to me.

__Jason

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That's exactly the problem. If I were a restaurateur who has had the pleasure of being fully booked most nights and this "service" comes in and starts taking bets on reservations (which is basically what they are doing) at MY place, and all of the tables don't fill, I would really, really be pissed. There are far too many ways a restaurant can lose money. Who needs to add this to the list???

Eileen

[herbacidal]

I'm also looking at it from the restaurants' POV, and it's probably bad for the customer.

I'll agree with the likelihood of requiring credit card numbers for certain reservations, along with those credit card numbers, phone numbers, reservation names, etc. being flagged and tracked a little more closely, especially for peak tables.

I wouldn't be suprised to see a policy where a reservation during peak period requires a minimum charge, regardless of whether people show up or not.

That would do away with a lot of the reservation selling.

I consider it a good thing for the smart restauranteur:

cuts down on the various fake reservations that are made during the course of a given week

slightly more revenue to go towards many of the fixed costs

[Capaneus]

I'm also looking at it from the restaurants' POV, and it's probably bad for the customer. 

I'll agree with the likelihood of requiring credit card numbers for certain reservations, along with those credit card numbers, phone numbers, reservation names, etc. being flagged and tracked a little more closely, especially for peak tables. 

I wouldn't be suprised to see a policy where a reservation during peak period requires a minimum charge, regardless of whether people show up or not.

That would do away with a lot of the reservation selling. 

I consider it a good thing for the smart restauranteur:

cuts down on the various fake reservations that are made during the course of a given week

slightly more revenue to go towards many of the fixed costs

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If this were feasible, it would be in place - somewhere, in some way. I imagine the illwill this would generate would more than outstrip the drop in no-shows.