Local food with local wine, says who?

[Craig Camp]

The main reason I follow the drink local rule is not because the local wines and foods automatically go better together than similar wines from outside the region, but because I want to taste wines that may not be readily available outside the region.

Well, generally, you don't really have a choice about drinking locally or non-locally. For the most part, in Europe, local wines are the only ones on the list. Paris and Rome are exceptions. But I've been to a good 30 restaurants in the Cote d'Or, and I can't recall a single one other than Lameloise that had wines from outside the region.

Even places like Naples, cities built on trade, offer only local wines (for the most part).

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There are wine regions outside of Europe.

[JohnL]

I wonder if this paradigm might hold more water in regions that have long-standing histories of excellence in wine-making? I would think that in those places traditional dishes may have been more likely to develop around the wine and in relation to the wine. To postulate that wines from a region might have developed around a cuisine does not make sense to me.

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Right. I think the "classic" matches like Muscadet and oysters or Sauternes and foie gras or Rioja and Jamon Iberico fit this model moreso than others and that's precisely why they're considered classics!

JohnL: I must seriously try the lambrusco with Mexican food or barbeque pairing. Sounds perfect and not something I ever would have thought of.

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I agree. Those classic pairings are well---classic. However we are still really talking about a wine's flavor profile as a reason for the success in the pairing. One can find wines from all over the world that would pair as well with any classic dish.

I also believe that a lot of the Europena resistance to new World wines is that many of the new World wines do not have the flavor profiles that work well with what a European would consider their classic dishes. This has led to a lot of "trashing" of new world wines by the European press and a backlash against any European producers who make wine in a different style than what people are used to.

I also believe that as every country now produces many styles of wine and as many countries have access to the cuisines of other countries in addition to evolution of their own cuisines a lot of this angst and gnashing of teeth will go away.

Ahhh the problems with globalization!

Incidently, I kind of rediscovered lambrusco at a restaurant called "Via Emilia" here in NYC. They serve the cuisine of Emilia Romana and have a list of wines from there. They offer a number of Lambrusco's by the glass. I have recommended lambrusco (a good one like the Medici) with Mexican and Barbeque and people have raved about the pairing.

[LOS]

The main reason I follow the drink local rule is not because the local wines and foods automatically go better together than similar wines from outside the region, but because I want to taste wines that may not be readily available outside the region.

Well, generally, you don't really have a choice about drinking locally or non-locally. For the most part, in Europe, local wines are the only ones on the list. Paris and Rome are exceptions. But I've been to a good 30 restaurants in the Cote d'Or, and I can't recall a single one other than Lameloise that had wines from outside the region.

Even places like Naples, cities built on trade, offer only local wines (for the most part).

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There are wine regions outside of Europe.

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Yeah, I should have been clearer that I was refering to Europe. The original post mostly was, but the discussion has since wandered a bit.

[markk]

Also (I sort of suggested this earlier), a lot of out-of-the way regions where we go in hopes of finding local cuisine have simply ripped out their traditional grapes and started planting Chardonnay and Cabernet, even though they may not be as successful in that soil and climate to taste any good, and of course in the context of this discussion, no longer qualify as "local" wines to pair with the food.

[Sneakeater]

Incidently, I kind of rediscovered lambrusco at a restaurant called "Via Emilia" here in NYC.

Me too!

(I just never thought about it with Mexican.)

[eje]

I've really tried to resist this off-topic post, and I'm sure I will regret it.

But, everytime this topic pops up, I think of it.

Has anyone else seen the rather surreal BBC series, "League of Gentlemen"?

"It's a local wine for local people."

[jsmeeker]

Heh...  I did the same thing in a Brazillian Churascaria.  In fact, I started a post here in the wine forum before actually going to the reastaurant. I strted off with the "When In Rome" assumption.  People suggested a Malbec from Argentina.  (It's close to Brazil  ) And you know what, it was great.  It looks like I'll be going to a Brazillian Churascaria later in the month. And you know what? I think I'll order a Malbec.     I mean, if I never tried the "when in Rome" thing, I'd probably miss out on a lot of wines I would not normally have.

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I was in on that thread. But I don't think that people suggested the Argentinian Malbec because Argentina is close to Brazil. I think they suggested a Malbec because it's a delicious accompaniment to grilled and roasted meats, and an Argentinian one because not only are theirs delicious (and Argentina is one of the places getting great results from that grape), they are reasonably priced as well.

It was Texas de Brazil in Miami that you're referring to. I was there last week, and I also ate at an Argentinian Steakhouse (Graziano's) and had a sublime rib steak grilled over wood, and a supremely delicious Argentinian Malbec to go with it.

Now, it very well may be that the Argentinians started planting the Malbec grape looking for something to go with their delicious beef, for sure.

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Yeah.. I know. But I think I DID initially seek out something that was from an area close to Brazil.

Anywyay, you were a great help and I got good wine that we all loved. That's what matters most. Right?

[IlCuoco]

Are the two "sides" of this debate really mutually exclusive?

It seems to me that there is some natural synergy between wines and foods of a given region and that both the regional wine styles and cuisine styles evolved "together" to a degree, starting with the rustic (the analogy of the wine maker marrying the farm wife sums it up far better than I could). On the other hand, I don't think anyone is suggesting that ONLY those wines from a region should go with that food; far more wines (and food) from far more places are available today than even 50 years ago (to say nothing of 100 or more) and, if the quality of the best is lower (and I'm not saying it is), the quality of the mean is much higher (that is, on average, food and wine are of better quality now than in the past) so other pairings will work as well, heck, maybe even better.

It's not one way or the other...

[markabauman]

A chef friend of mine from Italy likes to say: "If it grows together, it goes together". Don't know who actually made that up, but she likes to go by that- but not exclusively. It's only a starting point from which to break the rules.

[Pan]

[...]Is it an act of God that the Emilia Romagna region of Italy produces all the ingredients necessary for Lasagne Bolognese?[...]

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No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas.

Edited January 8, 2007 by Pan (log)

[markk]

A chef friend of mine from Italy likes to say: "If it grows together, it goes together".

Well, you certainly couldn't say that about the wines of Capri and its food, for sure. The only thing that goes with them is a stomach pump, seriously. The soil and climate there grow some mighty delicious things, but grapes ain't one of them, at least not when they're turned into wine.

[markk]

[...]Is it an act of God that the Emilia Romagna region of Italy produces all the ingredients necessary for Lasagne Bolognese?[...]

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No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas.

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True, but the fact that they grow so well and deliciously there could be indicative of something. That area's silly with good ingredients.

[Craig Camp]

[...]Is it an act of God that the Emilia Romagna region of Italy produces all the ingredients necessary for Lasagne Bolognese?[...]

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No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas.

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How many centuries is the rule before a product becomes local?

[Fat Guy]

In New York the rule is 1 minute.

[Pan]

[...]Is it an act of God that the Emilia Romagna region of Italy produces all the ingredients necessary for Lasagne Bolognese?[...]

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No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas.

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How many centuries is the rule before a product becomes local?

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Oh, tomatoes are long since local to Italy by now, but their arrival there was certainly not an "act of God," unless we can say that God was working through the conquistadores and traders.

[markk]

[...]Is it an act of God that the Emilia Romagna region of Italy produces all the ingredients necessary for Lasagne Bolognese?[...]

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No, but partly an act of traders, seeing as the ragu includes tomatoes, and tomatoes were brought to Italy directly or indirectly from the Americas.

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How many centuries is the rule before a product becomes local?

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Oh, tomatoes are long since local to Italy by now, but their arrival there was certainly not an "act of God," unless we can say that God was working through the conquistadores and traders.

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Well, that satisfactorily answers my question, and, "good point!".

[Brad Ballinger]

For anyone interested in this topic, a must background read is just about anything by Tim Hanni. He wrote a chapter several years back in an out-of-print book titled "The Wine Brats Guide to Living with Wine." While much of the chapter, and Tim's focus now, is about maintaining balance in both food and wine in terms of flavor profiles (sweet, sour, umami, etc.), he does address some of the issue brought up so far.

Did food and wine grow in harmony together? No. Maybe food is prepared now to better match certain wines of a region, but I'm not buying much into that. For centuries the Italians considered tomatoes poisionous. So it had to be only in recent decades that the barbera-tomato sauce (or, according to some, sangioves-tomato sauce) "classic" pairing surfaced.

People drink what they drink because it's available. Almost certainly. In Germany's Black Forest, where a traditional dish is vension with cherry sauce, people pair it with Riesling. Yet I douby many of us would make that our first choice.

I've conducted an experiement that originated with Tim. I served some people spaghetti with a store-bought sauce (think something with ridiculously high amounts of sugar), and served a Chianti with it. The wine appeared too "strong" (tannic, harsh, etc) when paired with the food. That's because sweetness will make most wine appear that way. I then had my guests add some red wine vinegar to the sauce and then try the wine again. They were surprised how the wine had mellowed. But the wine didn't change. Instead, the food was simply borugt back into balance and paired well with a balanced wine.

Where we get into food and wine pairing issues is when either is out of balance in terms of flavor profiles. Sauternes "tastes" sweeter with blue cheese than with creme brulee. Sauvignong Blanc "shows" more citrus with chevre than with vinaigrette. And so on.

When I've traveled in Champagne, the restaurants have mainly Champagne on their wine lists, but serve a variety of cuisine. At the high end places you can get Bordeaux, for example, tor example to have with beef, but most diners with be having Champagne with their beef. When I stayed along Italy's Amalfi Coast, the local wines (about $2 U.S.) were joyous matches with balanced dishes. In the Pfalz region, I dined in a couiple's house where they preferred to put an Italian spin on their cuisine, and had many Italian wines. For fun, I ordered a Riesling and one of the Italian wine (can't recall the name offhand). The Riesling was a better food match that night. And In Spain, I just ordered sangria because my wife loves the stuff.

[Craig Camp]

  So it had to be only in recent decades that the barbera-tomato sauce (or, according to some, sangioves-tomato sauce) "classic" pairing surfaced.

You'd be hard pressed to find a tomato sauce in Piemonte.

[Sneakeater]

Now that it's finally cold out, my thoughts have naturally turned to cassoulet.

When I go out to have a cassoulet, I will reflexively order a madiran to go with it, if it's available. After all, that's what you'd drink with a cassoulet in Toulouse.

But let's think about it. The cassoulet I'm served in New York will really not taste anything like a cassoulet in Toulouse. The ingredients are different. Most places don't use the same kind of beans as is used in the Languedoc. They use duck instead of goose. And even to the extent they use the same types of meats, our pork (say) tastes different from pork in the Languedoc.

So the assumption that terroir tells is, when you think of it, misguided, since of course the food doesn't come from the same soil as the supposedly "local" wine.

Cassoulet is a fairly extreme example, but when you think about it, the same is true of any foreign cuisine served in the United States. You couldn't replicate the taste of any dish from anywhere in Italy, for example, because no matter what you do the ingredients will be different.

If you look at it that way -- as a matter of terroir -- no matter what type of food I'm eating in New York City, the only local wines are from Long Island and the Hudson Valley. Anything else is foreign to the food I'm eating, no matter what the origin or orientation of the recipe.

And there's no way I'm limiting myself to Long Island and Hudson Valley wines.

(Even if you look at it as a matter of flavors developing together, the "local" wine assumption doesn't hold, because, as I said, the flavors of foreign food cooked here are going to be different from the flavors of foreign food cooked in its place of origin.)

Edited January 20, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[Daniel Rogov]

Perhaps setting a "rule" as to local wines with local foods is a bit overgeneralized....as matching every course with a different wine might be overly specific.

My own custom when dining in wine-growing regions is indeed to stay with the local,but that especially in restaurants featuring local cuisine. In a tavernna on the Greek Peloponesus, for example, I'll certainly try the local wines, but if dining at a fine French restaurant in the same area, I'll be far broader in my selections (not eliminating the local wines but ordering only those I know will go with my meal). Even in (shall we say) less exotic California, I'll tend to stay with the wines of the specific region in which I am dining (Sonoma, Napa, whatever) if the cook/chef tends towards specialties of that region but at the French Laundry I might go for wines from one of a dozen different countries.

In an odd way perhaps, the simpler the restaurant, the greater the probability that I'll go for the local wines. Amazing how many good matches I've found. On the other hand, equally amazing how few wines one finds that way that one would want to ship home except perhaps as a curiosity.

[Sneakeater]

I think there are two different sub-questions here. When traveling, of course you'd tend to have local wines with local food. But as Fat Guy said in one of the initial posts in this thread, that's almost more touristic advice than anything else.

A different and more interesting question -- and the one I think this discussion has mostly focussed on -- is what to do when you're eating "foreign" food in a place with a cosmopolitan restaurant culture (and no true indigenous wine culture) like the U.S. (and probably Israel as well, but I don't know enough to say so).

[Daniel Rogov]

Sneakeater, Hi...

Point well taken. When dining in cosmpolitan areas with no specific "cuisine" and/or "wine culture" of their own, I'd say that best bet is to forget localities and best match the wine to the nature of the dish. A few examples come to mind - Thai cuisine in the UK, USA or Israel might match well with Alsace Gerwurztraminer or seafood with a French flair with Burgundy or Loire whites, no matter where consumed in the world. On the other hand, when we get to those restaurants that some consider "their own" and others think of as "ethnic" we may even find that wine is not the best match. I, for example, adore humous in a thousand forms, but have yet to find a wine that matches well to my taste. On the other hand, with that humous let me start with a small glass of Arak and then go on to a well chilled beer and all's well on earth.

xceptions might be made of course in restaurants where the owner, chef and/or wine waiter suggest a special find that they recommend with a given dish. We have at least one (the one that I know of) Lebanese restaurant in Tel Aviv that arranges* for the wines of Lebanese producers, Chateau Musar, Kefraya, Chatau Ksara and Massaya to be available to his regular clients. Fascinating to taste those wines with the Lebanese dishes alongside glasses of paired Israeli wines from the Golan Heights and Upper Galilee and to find the similarities and differences.

*Because politics rarely concern themselves with wine, it is illegal to import the wines of Lebanon into Israel and, of course, vice versa. Ah well....one day perhaps.

[Sneakeater]

But there's still the main question: if you were eating at an Italian restaurant in Tel Aviv, would you automatically pair an Italian wine (preferably from the same region your dish is from)? I know I normally would (although you obviously are worlds more sophisticated than I am). But what this thread is bringing out is that that's probably misguided.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

[JohnL]

But there's still the main question:  if you were eating at an Italian restaurant in Tel Aviv, would you automatically pair an Italian wine (preferably from the same region your dish is from)?  I know I normally would (although you obviously are worlds more sophisticated than I am).  But what this thread is bringing out is that that's probably misguided.

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Not "misguided" at all.

At a basic level:

Matching wine with food is a matter of selecting a wine whose flavor profile

would work with the food. The flavor profile of a wine is really the wine's style.

Pretty much every wine making area of the world produces wines of different styles, even from the same grape varietal. I recently tried two verdicchio's from the same region--one was very crisp, light bodied and citrussy, unoaked and simple while the other was medium bodied, minerally, with oak notes and was very complex. I would say they were of equal quality--both very well made. Now either one would "work" for most people with most seafood. Yet each would work "better" with specific seafood preparations.

In the days before the EU and the emergence of so many wine making countries and advances in viniculture and viticulture, one dining is, say, the Loire would most likely be confronted with a list heavy with wines from--the Loire. One would invariably ask the wait person or sommelier for a wine to go with whatever they were having. (invariably a local dish). Now was every wine on the list an equally good match for the dish in question? Probably not though most dry whites or dry reds would probably work in a generally pleasing way. Does this mean that if a wine list comprised of wines from Italy were substituted, that one could not find equally good (maybe even better) matches at all levels to one's "Loire dish?"

I think that when traveling, most people like to experience the local sights, people and culture as well as the food and wines. If one's goal is to eat food that is perfectly matched by the wine then it is not so important where the wine comes from (or the food really). In the second case, the broader and deeper the selection of wine without regard for place of origin is more likely to provide the "perfect" match.

It is perfectly fine to want to drink "what the locals drink" with a particular dish. However this is a moving target as local options and preferences are changing (as they have always changed).

So, as I see it, it all depends upon what one is looking for--what kind of experience you want.

Today, that restaurant in the Loire may have a wine list that is comprised of only wines from the Loire--this region makes many different styles of wines both red and white. Or, the restaurant may have a more wide ranging cosmopolitan list with wines from elsewhere in France, Europe or the world.

The truth is, there is an ever growing diversity with wines to the point that the old generalizations simply do not apply so easily anymore. (if they ever really applied to begin with).

[Daniel Rogov]

But there's still the main question:  if you were eating at an Italian restaurant in Tel Aviv, would you automatically pair an Italian wine (preferably from the same region your dish is from)?  I know I normally would (although you obviously are worlds more sophisticated than I am).  But what this thread is bringing out is that that's probably misguided.

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Not misguided in the least. Indeed, at a fine formal Tel Aviv Italian ristorante such as Pronto, I'd most surely often order Italian wines from their excellent wine list and indeed, often try to pair regional cuisine with regional food. At equally good but far less formal places, such as Pasta Mia or Mia Pasta, I'd either order from their wine list of Italian wines or because these places do not havd extensive wine lists, bring a bottle from home of wine suited to my appetites of the evening.

On the other hand sometimes it can be fun to try a mix-and-match. Staying with Italian cuisine, for example, a California or even an Israeli Zinfandel or Zinfandel blend or perhaps something akin to one of the super-Tuscans of pure Sangiovese or a Bordeaux blend but not one from Piemonte or Toscana but from Israel, the New World or even (forgive the mention) Australia.

As for my being "more sophisticated", forget that nonsense. I may be a critic but the best wine is the wine you enjoy the best and the best food-wine matches are those you enjoy the best.