Bruni and Beyond: NYC Reviewing (2007)

[Sneakeater]

Just for the record, by the standards I hold Bruni to, I am a completely shitty food writer.

I'm also not such a raging success as a heterosexual (but that's a topic for a different board).

One other thing that was interesting about the Grimes review Nathan linked is that it was precisely the kind of "hidden gem"/"underappreciated spot" that we've been arguing about. I guess Nathan would argue that, in the current internet era, people would have been all over that place as soon as the new chef moved in. I wonder, though, whether there still might not be several places of like quality floating under the radar.

[Sneakeater]

Bruni's problem is he is not being taken seriously by a large chunk of his audience as a food and restaurant critic. His sexual orientation became an issue only after he introduced it. (in fact, arguable hung a review on it).

My point is that if he were well respected as a critic no one (well almost no one) would be having any issue with said orientation at all.

It is pretty clear that most people do not believe that gender or sexual preference has anything whatsoever to do with one's abilities as a critic or a writer.

I don't!

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1. what you seem incapable of comprehending is that it is unclear to the rest of us why his credibility as a critic has anything to do with whether his sexual orientation is "an issue"....what difference does it make whether he is the best food reviewer on the planet or the worst? how do either of those statuses make his orientation an issue?

assume for a moment that Sneakeater is a shitty food writer (sorry, Sneak!), does the fact that he mentions his heterosexuality on occasion make it an issue because of his (hypothetical) shitty food writing? (he writes about food quite well btw).

you're still insisting on different rules if someone is gay.

2. no one here has ever said that someone's gender or sexual preference never affects their writing or criticism. no one ever said that. what I called you on in your initial post was your implicit reference to critical theory to make the absurd claim that someone's sexual orientation (well, you didn't say this applied to us breeders) inevitably affects all aspects of their writing no matter what they write about. as I said before, there are gay writers and there are writers who happen to be gay. and there's a difference (and a continuum in between).

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Now you are speaking for "the rest of us."

I agree with your astute conclusion that "there are gay writers and writers who happen to be gay."

also your even more astute observation that there is a "difference."

You are welcome to infer whatever you want to.

One final question.

If in one of his reports on the political scene covering government. Bruni declared "I am gay." or a liberal or a conservative." would someone be even remotely justified in reading that piece as well as ensuing pieces by Bruni wondering what role his being gay or liberal or conservative was playing in terms of the perspective being applied to the subject at hand?

Afterall what exactly would be one's point in making such an announcement in an arena where the announcement should have no bearing on anything?

Kinda like when someone opens by stating that "It's not about the money but...."

I'm sorry Nathan, I realize I must be driving you nuts!

I'm done making points. We really should move on. you will never agree with me, though as noted above, I agree with you so I guess we are in some sort of agreement here!

can we agree on that much?!

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Which is why Bruni only brought up his sexual orientation when he was reviewing a restaurant located IN A STRIP CLUB.

(I know people must be getting tired of reading me saying this, but let's face it, this whole discussion is pretty tiresome.)

[oakapple]

Despite all the criticism leveled at Mr Bruni. I think it is important to note that he deserves a lot of respect for even attempting what he does. I certainly would not want to try putting my restaurant reviewing skills out there on the professional level.

I certainly couldn't write as well as Frank Bruni. I do think that both my ratings and choice of review targets would be better. But we all probably think we could do that part better.

I also believe that the standards that the Times set in the past are in no small part responsible for a lot of dissatisfaction  with Bruni.

It may be, as noted here much earlier, that the Times is concerned less with a certain level of expertise and more in entertainment value as criteria as well as promoting the lifestyles in their reporter's backgrounds.

The Times cannot have been unaware that they were choosing someone who had no prior background in the beat he was going to cover. They probably assumed—wrongly, it turns out—that they could send him on a "feeding tour" (yes, they actually did this), and he would pick up whatever he needed to know.

There may well have been a considered decision to make the reviews more entertaining, and less about the food. But I doubt that anyone ever said, "We'd like critics to write more about their personal lifestyles." Clearly Frank has now done it (at least once), and the Times not only allowed it, but actually featured that review more prominently than they normally do.

I will also say that the food section has been pretty interesting recently. (same for the food pieces in the Sunday Magazine). It ain't all bad.

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There is a noticeable improvement since Pete Wells took over. Edited May 10, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

Bruni defends his article on Mozza here:

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/200...-more-on-mozza/

[oakapple]

Bruni defends his article on Mozza here:

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.com/200...-more-on-mozza/

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Bruni's defense doesn't really answer the most glaring questions about the article.

I certainly agree that Mario Batali's first L.A. restaurant was worth covering—even if it's only a glorified pizzeria, and even if Batali's role is fairly limited.

But I cannot believe that the opening of Mozza is the only culinary trend in L.A. that's worthy of journalistic notice. It's not as if the Times has a regular L.A. food beat, and it's not as if they send Bruni there all the time. Had I been Bruni's editor, I would have said: "You can go, but I want you to hit 5 or 6 places. It beggars belief that Mozza is the only place there worth covering. (And if it were, that would be a story in itself.)"

The article clearly refers to multiple visits, suggesting a multi-day trip. But he apparently visited nowhere else—or if he did, found nothing else worth writing about. I mean, imagine if the L.A. Times sent their restaurant critic to NYC, and the only thing he wrote about was multiple visits to Otto.

Edited May 14, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Fat Guy]

The most surprising part of Bruni's comments is that he seems to be saying he has never had pizza at Patsy's in East Harlem. In response to a suggestion from a reader that he try Patsy's, he says, "I can’t promise this reader I’m going to be able to get there in the near future . . ." That to me is a staggering knowledge gap, tantamount to never having been to Katz's, Peter Luger or Papaya King. Patsy's is on the short list of places you need to visit to establish baselines for excellence in the most important NYC food categories. It sounds like Bruni needs some remedial dining education before he breathes another word about pizza.

[JohnL]

That caught my eye as well.

He probably should have been touring New York City pizza instead of a trip to LA!

I believe that the Times is more concerned with being seen as a National newspaper not a local NY paper.

They probably see bruni as a national guy and would prefer to have someone like Ed Levine or one of their other writers cover the New York pizza scene in a special feature in the food section.

Clearly Bruni was covering the LA pizza effort as a Batali venture not as a pizza place.

Bruni is just playing a role in the Times conquer the world strategy.

At least that's how Isee it!

[slkinsey]

Do we really think that delis like Katz's and pizzerie like Patsy's East Harlem are relevant to Bruni's supposed field (i.e., much higher end restaurants)?

[docsconz]

Do we really think that delis like Katz's and pizzerie like Patsy's East Harlem are relevant to Bruni's supposed field (i.e., much higher end restaurants)?

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Not as something for him to cover per se, but certainly as a point of quality reference.

[Fat Guy]

If he's going to opine about pizza, yes, it's basic cultural literacy.

[slkinsey]

Well, perhaps if he were going to opine about the state of pizza in NYC, or about NYC pizza places. Not sure it disqualifies him from writing about a "Chez Panisse-influenced new-Neapolitan style" pizzeria in California, though. I mean, presumably the guy ate plenty of pizza in Italy and Mozza is clearly not on the American model.

[oakapple]

That caught my eye as well.

He probably should have been touring New York City pizza instead of a trip to LA!

I believe that the Times is more concerned with being seen as a National newspaper not a local NY paper.

They probably see bruni as a national guy and would prefer to have someone like Ed Levine or one of their other writers cover the New York pizza scene in a special feature in the food section.

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The Times very clearly is a national paper, although it still has (and will always have) considerable local coverage.

They don't see Bruni as a national guy. The vast majority of his writing is NYC-focused. It actually makes for him to travel out of town every once in a while. Among other things, it ensures he doesn't become too insular. This assumes the trips have a sensible agenda, and in this case it apparently did not.

I agree with FG that if Bruni is going to fly to L.A. and pay multiple visits to a pizzeria, he ought to be familiar with the comparable NYC examples of the genre he's writing about.

Do we really think that delis like Katz's and pizzerie like Patsy's East Harlem are relevant to Bruni's supposed field (i.e., much higher end restaurants)?

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Bruni clearly has a keen interest in downscale food. On another occasion, he spent at least a week, maybe more, on a multi-state driving tour, so that he could sample fast food. He has had numerous blog posts on his search for the perfect hamburger.

Obviously, his bosses at the Times approved these projects, all of which take away from his coverage of the high-end restaurant market. And his coverage of that segment isn't really very good, partly because he doesn't have the background, and partly because it doesn't seem to interest him all that much.

The $25 and Under category has withered. It now appears only bi-weekly, and Peter Meehan has been taking it way downmarket. That leaves Bruni to cover a lot of restaurants that Asimov (in the old days) would have reviewed. Bruni probably likes those restaurants better anyway.

Edited May 14, 2007 by oakapple (log)

[Nathan]

The most surprising part of Bruni's comments is that he seems to be saying he has never had pizza at Patsy's in East Harlem. In response to a suggestion from a reader that he try Patsy's, he says, "I can’t promise this reader I’m going to be able to get there in the near future . . ." That to me is a staggering knowledge gap, tantamount to never having been to Katz's, Peter Luger or Papaya King. Patsy's is on the short list of places you need to visit to establish baselines for excellence in the most important NYC food categories. It sounds like Bruni needs some remedial dining education before he breathes another word about pizza.

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I've got a feeling no one's ever going to take me seriously again...I've never been to any of those three.

I will quote a friend of mine from Genoa when I introduced him to American pizza (at John's..that's considered decent, right?)...."this is very good but why do you call it "pizza"?"...

If Bruni was to write a review or article on NY-style pizza (or presumably Neopolitan pizza in NY), then certainly he'd have to visit Patsy's to have any credibility on the matter. I don't see how it's relevant to Mozza or this Bianco place in Arizona (I think the Mozza article would have worked much better if he had also gone there). pizza styles vary just as widely in Italy as they do in the U.S. (and in my experience, if you didn't grow up on the east coast it's really hard to like the NY "plain" slice...kind of like bagels).

[slkinsey]

(at John's..that's considered decent, right?)

Meh. Once upon a time, maybe. Not now.

If I were going to show an Italan some old-school NYC pizza that I thought was both outstanding in its class, distinctly American but still understandable to an Italian I can't think of anywhere better than Patsy's East Harlem (places like Fornino, Franny's, Una Pizza Napoletana, etc. don't count). Maybe Grimaldi's at the noon hour, but even they have a pretty heavy hand with the toppings even at their best.

[Nathan]

ah..gotcha.

of course, pizza in Liguria (what my friend was familiar with) is essentially focaccia with toppings. tomatoes aren't usually used.

[docsconz]

Since Bruni is writing for a NY based paper he should be familiar with the best pizze NY has to offer if he is going to write about pizze from elsewhere since that is what his principle audience will be able to compare it to. At this point it is not about luxury, but simply about quality and standards. That doesn't men that the pizze have to be the same or even similar styles. he should be able to distinguish what is different about them and make the article pertinent to his principle audience. If he could take the pizze at Mozza's and compare them to the best NY pizze and in turn compare those to the best Italian pizze so much the better.

[oakapple]

I've got a feeling no one's ever going to take me seriously again...I've never been to any of those three.

Your reviews aren't sold as a professional product. Bruni's are. You don't work at this full-time. Bruni does.

If Bruni was to write a review or article on NY-style pizza (or presumably Neopolitan pizza in NY), then certainly he'd have to visit Patsy's to have any credibility on the matter.  I don't see how it's relevant to Mozza or this Bianco place in Arizona (I think the Mozza article would have worked much better if he had also gone there).  pizza styles vary just as widely in Italy as they do in the U.S. (and in my experience, if you didn't grow up on the east coast it's really hard to like the NY "plain" slice...kind of like bagels).

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Pizza in New York isn't a singular thing; there are different varieties, as there are everywhere else. Mozza serves Neopolitan-style pizza, and by many accounts New York's best example of that genre is Patsy's.

So, Bruni got management approval to take a multi-day trip to California costing thousands of dollars, and taking several days away from his normal job. But he couldn't be bothered to take a $4.00 round-trip subway ride to baseline the genre.

[Dave H]

Look, the fact is that neither Mozza nor Patsy's East Harlem is serving Neopolitan-style pizzas, nor are their pizzas or their restaurants anything similar to each other, and some guy posting a comment to the Diner's Journal blog doesn't make it so. The proper New York points of reference for Mozza are Franny's and, due to their shared DNA, you can make a case for Otto for non-pizza items. The proper national point of reference is Pizzeria Bianco. So Frank got two out of three right.

This is a separate question from whether Bruni ought to be familiar with the major New York-style pizzas (Patsy's EH, Totonno's Coney Island, Grimaldi's, Lombardi's, Di Fara), which he obviously should be. (The top New Haven places, too. And the new-style New York pizzerias, particularly Franny's and Una Pizza Napoletana.)

[oakapple]

Look, the fact is that neither Mozza nor Patsy's East Harlem is serving Neopolitan-style pizzas....

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Well, Frank said that Mozza is serving that style — to wit, that it was "inspired at least loosely by the thin-crust pizza of Naples." So I'm not sure what's factual any more.

[docsconz]

Not to make this a thread about pizza, but Patsy's does indeed serve Neapolitan style pizza even if it isn't la vera pizza napoletana. Dave, I'm not sure why you would say that it is not Neapolitan style.

[Nathan]

Look, the fact is that neither Mozza nor Patsy's East Harlem is serving Neopolitan-style pizzas, nor are their pizzas or their restaurants anything similar to each other, and some guy posting a comment to the Diner's Journal blog doesn't make it so. The proper New York points of reference for Mozza are Franny's and, due to their shared DNA, you can make a case for Otto for non-pizza items. The proper national point of reference is Pizzeria Bianco. So Frank got two out of three right.

This is a separate question from whether Bruni ought to be familiar with the major New York-style pizzas (Patsy's EH, Totonno's Coney Island, Grimaldi's, Lombardi's, Di Fara), which he obviously should be. (The top New Haven places, too. And the new-style New York pizzerias, particularly Franny's and Una Pizza Napoletana.)

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I'm not going to get into the typology of Neopolitan pizza but I'll note that it's not just the non-pizza items that make Otto analogous...several of the pizzas at Mozza are versions of pizzas at Otto (the toppings are the same...its the dough and baking style that are different)..

in other words, considering the vast array of foodstuffs that fall under the rubric of "pizza" (I know, I know, in NY there's only one kind)...(heck, tarte flambee counts under any definition that ignores its origins but merely looks at the product)...I fail to see why you have to sample one kind of pizza to write about another kind of pizza. (heck, in terms of quantity sold, Domino's and Pizza Hut might make the most popular NY pizza)...

now if Mozza was purporting to sell a NY-style pizza (which it is not)...then Patsy's et al become very relevant.

edit: I suppose there is a dichotomy here between Bruni's obligations as a local reviewer (the Times is a local newspaper) and as a national reviewer (the Times is a national newspaper). after all, the Times does swap out a lot of its local coverage in its national edition, but not the restaurant reviews (I realize this goes for other reviews as well...but significant theater, music and dance productions (as well as obviously books and movies) are of national and even historical significance).

Edited May 15, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[oakapple]

in other words, considering the vast array of foodstuffs that fall under the rubric of "pizza" (I know, I know, in NY there's only one kind)...(heck, tarte flambee counts under any definition that ignores its origins but merely looks at the product)...I fail to see why you have to sample one kind of pizza to write about another kind of pizza.  (heck, in terms of quantity sold, Domino's and Pizza Hut might make the most popular NY pizza)...

now if Mozza was purporting to sell a NY-style pizza (which it is not)...then Patsy's et al become very relevant.

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I suppose it depends whether Bruni is a restaurant critic or an entertainment writer. Depending on the article, and the day of the week, he seems to do both. The story on Mozza was entertaining. Therefore, as an entertainment writer, he did his job.

As a restaurant critic, I would have expected some him to acquire more understanding of the genre he's writing about—including the local exemplars of the genre that are a subway ride away. Given that he spent thousands of dollars of NYT money—and several days away from his regular job—to write an article on a pizzeria, it seems like the least he could have done.

Obviously it's the NYT's money, and in a sense I shouldn't care. But the story demonstrantes, once again, that Bruni is a dilettante ... a dabbler.

[docsconz]

I will reiterate that Patsy's is relevant not because Mozza's purports to be anything like it, but as a point of reference for his NY readership and for himself as one of the finest examples within the city that he covers.

[Nathan]

I'd assert that the tarte flambee at the Bar Room at the Modern might be the best pizza in NY. but I'm not put out that Bruni didn't compare it in the Mozza review.

(this might be my nomadic childhood asserting itself, I didn't grow up with any one type of pizza)

edit: I completely agree that Bruni, as a paid reviewer, should be familiar with all of the major NY-style pizzas....I just find that a separate issue from the Mozza article.

Edited May 15, 2007 by Nathan (log)

[oakapple]

I completely agree that Bruni, as a paid reviewer, should be familiar with all of the major NY-style pizzas....I just find that a separate issue from the Mozza article.

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But the only reason we know his familiarity, or lack thereof, is because he wrote the Mozza article. You could argue that pizza isn't even on his beat (he certainly doesn't cover it with any regularity).