Bruni and Beyond: NYC Reviewing (2007)

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

Oakapple said what I was about to say about the pool of reviewable restaurants. Times reviews don't have to be limited to new openings in Manhattan (although I agree that has to be the main focus).

I also agree with Fat Guy, though, that, since a reviewer with 52 slots can't cover every opening, he has to prioritize. And, like Fat Guy, I think it presents a blinkered view of what the Times should be covering to say that Max Brenner didn't "deserve" a review slot.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

rich · May 2, 2007

in other words, I'm asserting that you're asking Bruni to do the impossible...to find restaurants that don't exist.
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Now that's impossible - he can barely find the ones that do exist.

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

I mean, I have to say that I, personally, am more interested in a review of Max Brenner than of either Piano Due or Brasserie Ruhlmann.

rich · May 2, 2007

And, like Fat Guy, I think it presents a blinkered view of what the Times should be covering to say that Max Brenner didn't "deserve" a review slot.
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Call me blinkered.

rich · May 2, 2007

I mean, I have to say that I, personally, am more interested in a review of Max Brenner than of either Piano Due or Brasserie Ruhlmann.
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I'd be more interested in seeing a review about any of the Greek places in Astoria, Sapori d'Ischia, WD-50, Aquavit, Daniel, Carol's Cafe, Henry's End, Don Peppe. Hell, Papaya Hot Dogs would be more interesting than MB - even the Hard Rock Cafe would prove to be more interesting.

Or review some other strip clubs that serve food, at least I wouldn't be reading about how some 8-years old wiped chocolate syrup on their sleeves.

And by the way - where's the slide show?

oakapple · May 2, 2007

Some folks seem to think that the Max Brenner review was a failure of prioritization. I think that's a reductionistic view of how restaurants should be chosen for review. Saying he gave half a review to Eleven Madison Park and therefore shouldn't give a whole review to any restaurant that's not as good as Eleven Madison Park makes no sense. The reviews are about more than just the restaurants. In addition, they're a body of work. And yes, there are dozens of one-star-worthy restaurants that have never been reviewed. Does that mean there should never be a no-star review, so that we can have more and more reviews of mediocre one-star places?
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I am not suggesting that. But in a hypothetical world where every restaurant in town got reviewed, the zero-star category would be the most plentiful — just as one-star is more plentiful than two, and two-stars are more plentiful than three.

That being the case, there's basically a limitless pool of zero-star restaurants to choose from. When he uncorks one, the obvious question is: why? The most obvious reason is a prominent opening that requires a review: Lonesome Dove, Kobe Club, Ninja. Another case would be a previously starred restaurant that no longer deserves it: Mercer Kitchen. Yet another case is a zero-star review accompanied by a contrasting higher-rated review: Zarela (with Centrico).

Indeed, I also suggested a way that Max Brenner could have been made relevant: a double-review, contrasting it with a similar place that got the formula right. If the best reason you can come up with is that the place is packed with tourists, and People magazine has featured it, that's awfully weak.

One can give numerous examples of Bruni's poor use of space — and not just among the zero-star reviews. When you don't know much about the topic you're covering, you're going to make many mistakes.

So all critics should review the same restaurants, and deviation is unacceptable?

Far from it. Actually, one of Bruni's problems (this week notwithstanding) is that he's a follower, not a leader. He ought to be finding the places others ignored. I don't accept that every place worth writing about has already been heavily publicized. That's putting yourself in the hands of publicists, instead of figuring it out for yourself.

Rosanjin is an example where he got it right. It wasn't totally ignored, but it was close. But in this case, at least he was using his bully pulpit to call our attention to a place that he felt deserved it. He should be doing a lot more of that. You've got to question priorities when he picks a place no one else seemed to think required it, and the best he can come up with is: don't bother.

Edited May 2, 2007 by oakapple (log)

Fat Guy · May 2, 2007

But it is manifestly not the mission of the Times critic to review only restaurants that are recommended. A magazine like Gourmet, when it was running restaurant reviews, generally followed a policy of reviewing recommended restaurants (with a few noteworthy exceptions like the petty review of Ducasse). But the Times runs "stay the heck away" reviews too. Did Max Brenner deserve such a review? I think it was an ambiguous place to serious food people. I certainly learned from the review that the place is a joke; that's not something I knew on my own, not something that has been publicized a lot, not something I really derived from the New York Magazine review.

oakapple · May 2, 2007

But it is manifestly not the mission of the Times critic to review only restaurants that are recommended.

I'm not suggesting it is. After all, just last week he wrote a review very nearly as negative as this one (Morandi), though it managed to squeak by with probably the most unenthusiastic one-star review ever. Until I got to the end, I was very sure I was reading a zero-star review.

Did Max Brenner deserve such a review? I think it was an ambiguous place to serious food people. I certainly learned from the review that the place is a joke; that's not something I knew on my own, not something that has been publicized a lot, not something I really derived from the New York Magazine review.
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I am surprised to hear you say so. On the theory that "all important restaurants have a 'foodie buzz'" (to which several here seem to subscribe), I would have thought the very absence of comments was telling in itself. Edited May 2, 2007 by oakapple (log)

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

I am surprised to hear you say so. On the theory that "all important restaurants have a 'foodie buzz'" (to which several here seem to subscribe), I would have thought the very absence of comments was telling in itself.
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I hope I'm not walking into some unknown political minefield when I post the following link as additional evidence (beyond the eG thread I linked above) that foodies were excited about this place when it first opened:

http://offthebroiler.wordpress.com/?s=brenner

Also, for all the talk of Max Brenner's being an obvious tourist trap, opening their second location on Second Ave. in the East Village isn't the move of a corporation targeting the tourist trade.

Hell, I could even point out that both their existing NYC branches are Downtown, which Nathan says is now the epicenter of serious New York dining.

As Fat Guy said, it wasn't obvious to me that the place is a joke.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

Greek places in Astoria, Sapori d'Ischia, WD-50, Aquavit, Daniel, Carol's Cafe, Henry's End, Don Peppe.
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I'd like to emphasize rich's list in connection with the "hidden gems" conversation above.

Nathan · May 2, 2007

[Actually, one of Bruni's problems (this week notwithstanding) is that he's a follower, not a leader. He ought to be finding the places others ignored. I don't accept that every place worth writing about has already been heavily publicized. That's putting yourself in the hands of publicists, instead of figuring it out for yourself.
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1. once again, let's have an example of a worthwhile place that others have ignored....you said there were "dozens"...I'm just asking for one.

2. there are plenty of legit criticisms of Bruni (personally, as I said, I thought reviewing MB was a waste of space), but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this thread. if he waits to review a restaurant to let it get its act in gear (as most here have agreed he should do...some of you criticizing him for not waiting A YEAR)...then he's a "follower"....so instead you want him to get there before anyone else.

it's gotta be one or the other. which is it? (and yes, some professional critic would have gotten to Rosanjin eventually)

rich · May 2, 2007

I certainly learned from the review that the place is a joke; that's not something I knew on my own, not something that has been publicized a lot
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That's only true if the review is accurate and you share the same opinion as the reviewer.

rich · May 2, 2007

[Actually, one of Bruni's problems (this week notwithstanding) is that he's a follower, not a leader. He ought to be finding the places others ignored. I don't accept that every place worth writing about has already been heavily publicized. That's putting yourself in the hands of publicists, instead of figuring it out for yourself.
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1. once again, let's have an example of a worthwhile place that others have ignored....you said there were "dozens"...I'm just asking for one.
2. there are plenty of legit criticisms of Bruni (personally, as I said, I thought reviewing MB was a waste of space), but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this thread. if he waits to review a restaurant to let it get its act in gear (as most here have agreed he should do...some of you criticizing him for not waiting A YEAR)...then he's a "follower"....so instead you want him to get there before anyone else.
it's gotta be one or the other. which is it? (and yes, some professional critic would have gotten to Rosanjin eventually)
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Nathan, is it enough to say that he's just not good at what he does and leave it at that?

Nathan · May 2, 2007

Greek places in Astoria, Sapori d'Ischia, WD-50, Aquavit, Daniel, Carol's Cafe, Henry's End, Don Peppe.
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I'd like to emphasize rich's list in connection with the "hidden gems" conversation above.
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well, WD-50, Aquavit and Daniel are hardly "hidden gems" (in the "hidden" sense anyway).

Sapori d'Ischia was written up by Bruni.

I've eaten my way through much of the Greek in Astoria...and I can't say that I've run across any place that was more notable than the better Greek restaurants in the city...they were just cheaper. and it's not like Cafe Agape et al haven't been written up.

where are Carol's Cafe, Henry's End and Don Peppe?

Nathan · May 2, 2007

[Actually, one of Bruni's problems (this week notwithstanding) is that he's a follower, not a leader. He ought to be finding the places others ignored. I don't accept that every place worth writing about has already been heavily publicized. That's putting yourself in the hands of publicists, instead of figuring it out for yourself.
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1. once again, let's have an example of a worthwhile place that others have ignored....you said there were "dozens"...I'm just asking for one.
2. there are plenty of legit criticisms of Bruni (personally, as I said, I thought reviewing MB was a waste of space), but he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't on this thread. if he waits to review a restaurant to let it get its act in gear (as most here have agreed he should do...some of you criticizing him for not waiting A YEAR)...then he's a "follower"....so instead you want him to get there before anyone else.
it's gotta be one or the other. which is it? (and yes, some professional critic would have gotten to Rosanjin eventually)
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Nathan, is it enough to say that he's just not good at what he does and leave it at that?
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I think he's quite good at some of it...not so good at some of it. He's very good on Italian, pretty good on steakhouses and Asian cuisines in general, pretty good on "new paradigm" food, not so hot on classic French and downright poor on molecular/avant garde.

He's also a wonderful writer.

His inability to get molecular food is the part that bothers me by far the most.

rich · May 2, 2007

I think he's quite good at some of it...not so good at some of it. He's very good on Italian, pretty good on steakhouses and Asian cuisines in general, pretty good on "new paradigm" food, not so hot on classic French and downright poor on molecular/avant garde.
He's also a wonderful writer.
His inability to get molecular food is the part that bothers me by far the most.
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I think he gets some Italian food correct. But if it's not a Batali place, the odds go down precipitously. I think Al di La is the exception that proves the rule. As far as the others that you mention - he's average with a slant for the dramatic and histrionic.

Way too concerned with ambiance - might have been an interior designer in another life. And very petty towards people he obviously doesn't like. As a professional writer, he should know better. But like any good storyteller, he never lets facts get in the way (but that's a cancer within the NY Times as a whole so he can be forgiven).

I think he can write, but not review. His writing about politics was much better. When he's reviewing he gets caught up in being cute and comes off as a buffoon at times.

rich · May 2, 2007

Greek places in Astoria, Sapori d'Ischia, WD-50, Aquavit, Daniel, Carol's Cafe, Henry's End, Don Peppe.
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I'd like to emphasize rich's list in connection with the "hidden gems" conversation above.
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well, WD-50, Aquavit and Daniel are hardly "hidden gems" (in the "hidden" sense anyway).
Sapori d'Ischia was written up by Bruni.
I've eaten my way through much of the Greek in Astoria...and I can't say that I've run across any place that was more notable than the better Greek restaurants in the city...they were just cheaper. and it's not like Cafe Agape et al haven't been written up.
where are Carol's Cafe, Henry's End and Don Peppe?
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I don't ever recal seeing a Sapori review by him.

S'gapo is as good if not better than any Manhattan Greek in my opinion. Carol's Cafe is in Staten Island and while I'm not a fan, it deserves a review. Henry's End is in Brooklyn and has been around for more than 30 years - it could be the quintissential definition of "hidden gem."

Don Peppe is a good Italian-American near Aqueduct Racetrack that has been around for more than 25 years. While not my favorite, it too deserves a review - long before some bald guy with chocolate dripping down his brow, while playing with the reviewer's relatives.

I didn't even mention Park Side because that would ruin it for me and the thousands of people who dine there every week. It's hard enough to get into the place now. He wouldn't like it anyway - it's the one Italian place in NYC where Batali doesn't own a piece.

Nathan · May 2, 2007

I don't ever recal seeing a Sapori review by him.
S'gapo is as good if not better than any Manhattan Greek in my opinion. Carol's Cafe is in Staten Island and while I'm not a fan, it deserves a review. Henry's End is in Brooklyn and has been around for more than 30 years - it could be the quintissential definition of "hidden gem."
Don Peppe is a good Italian-American near Aqueduct Racetrack that has been around for more than 25 years. While not my favorite, it too deserves a review - long before some bald guy with chocolate dripping down his brow, while playing with the reviewer's relatives.
I didn't even mention Park Side because that would ruin it for me and the thousands of people who dine there every week. It's hard enough to get into the place now. He wouldn't like it anyway - it's the one Italian place in NYC where Batali doesn't own a piece.
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He wrote up Sapori in a Diner's Journal.

I didn't think S'agapo was any better than Kefi, frankly. It's gotten plenty of press regardless...so Bruni would be a "follower" if he went there.

Bruni has written positive reviews of a number of non-Batali Italian restaurants in NY:

Petrosino (excellent and now-closed....it was a "hidden gem" actually).

Sfoglia

A Voce

Falai

Il Buco

there are more.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Nathan (log)

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

I think Bruni may understand Italian food better than some other kinds. But I think he's as bad a reviewer of Italian restaurants as any other kind. As I keep saying, he just doesn't have the technical chops.

Fat Guy · May 2, 2007

It's like when a terrible sports team executes a competent play. Sure, it's a cause for celebration, and against the backdrop of the team's overall performance it almost appears impressive. But the team is still terrible.

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

I think that part of the reason for the controversy over Bruni's choice of Max Brenner as a review subject is that nobody is really very interested in what Bruni thinks about things.

I mean, if it were Ruth Reichl or Mimi Sheraton or Craig Claiborne -- or oakapple or Fat Guy or any number of people here -- we'd be curious just to hear their take on a place, whatever it is.

Edited May 2, 2007 by Sneakeater (log)

Fat Guy · May 2, 2007

I was interested, in that when I saw it was going to be reviewed I said, hey, I've been wondering about that place. And the review seems trustworthy on its face. I suppose I could go there and disagree completely, sure.

Sneakeater · May 2, 2007

No, I mean, me too, I felt the exact same way as you did.

I'm just saying that if one of the Times's "good" reviewers had decided to review a place like this, I'm not sure there would have been the same uproar.

oakapple · May 2, 2007

Nathan, is it enough to say that he's just not good at what he does and leave it at that?
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I think he's quite good at some of it...not so good at some of it. He's very good on Italian, pretty good on steakhouses and Asian cuisines in general, pretty good on "new paradigm" food, not so hot on classic French and downright poor on molecular/avant garde.

He appears to understand Italian better than anything else, but it leads to a lack of balance. A number of Italian places have been rated a star higher than most other people thought they deserved. Obviously, there's room for opinion about any given restaurant. But when it keeps happening with Italian places, you've got to wonder. It also disturbs the balance of the so-called "body of work" when one cuisine is over-rated.

I agree: pretty good on steakhouses, reasonable on Asian.

His not-so-hots include pretty much all of Europe, except for Italy. I'm not sure there are enough New Paradigm examples to say he's good at it per se.

He's also a wonderful writer.

At times, but he's also turned out some howlers.

His inability to get molecular food is the part that bothers me by far the most.
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That's an interesting one. He absolutely loved El Bulli and Alinea. No stars, of course, since they're out of his territory, but he did love them.

During his tenure, only one relevant example has opened in New York: Gilt under Liebrandt. (I'm assuming that Liebrandt broadly fits the "molecular" pattern.) Sure, he didn't like Gilt, but you can't draw conclusions from a sample size of one.

And sure, he hasn't granted WD-50 a re-review. But there are lots of places not granted re-reviews.

Edited May 2, 2007 by oakapple (log)