Critical Mass?

[IML]

Of the current four-star restaurants, Per Se is the only one planning for a Cuba after Fidel Castro. "Legacy" is one of its eleven core values. Taillevent is Thomas' favorite restaurant. He talks frequently of his restaurants outlasting him, and de-emphasizes his importance. Most importantly, though, is the team he's assembled around him and its focus on solving problems before they occur. It is very hard, though, to reconcile the image of the Time Warner Center and Taillevent.

[oakapple]

Or, if they do survive, will they still be four-star restaurants? Or will they become barely star-worthy restaurants like the Four Seasons, which was once by all accounts among the best restaurants in America and is now taken seriously by exactly zero percent of the serious foodies I know; or even if they maintain their current standards will that be enough to merit four stars in 2020, 2030 and 2040?

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What's interesting about The Four Seasons, is that it is frequented by some sophisticated people who—although they're not "foodies"—have been around the block enough to tell the difference between fine dining and an imitation of it. It's not like One if By Land or Tavern on the Green, which really do survive almost solely on the tourist/B&T crowd.

[robyn]

I wouldn't count Ducasse because people think of Ducasse as the chef.

its true that people in NY identify LB with Ripert, but some older people in other parts of the U.S. still identify it with Le Coze

(see Robyn's remark awhile back on how she refuses to eat at LB because she had poor service at the (now closed) Brassiere Le Coze in Miami -- (LB has no connection whatsoever (except in ownership) to BLC))

but as to your larger point, I think you're right that the branding of chefs will mitigate against restaurant life.  still, the connection can be quite tenuous.

I have heard it claimed by knowledgeable people that JG Shanghai is the best restaurant in Asia.  JG Shanghai is a franchise and not part of the JG empire.  He was contracted to train the staff and lend his name.  considering this, I wonder if it is possible that the JG empire will survive his demise.  I can see how it could.

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And I never will eat at that restaurant (I'm amazed anyone remembered what I said)! Can't agree with your statement about no connection - except in ownership. Maguy Le Coze was the person who pissed me off in person in Miami - and I'll be darned if I'll go anywhere on purpose where I might run into her again.

To give you an outsider's (non-New Yorker's) point of view - the problem with a lot of the restaurant scene is that many participants are in it for the short run trendiness of a place - not the food. That means that a lot of the expensive but not highest echelon places will be like shooting stars - bright for a period - and then flame out. This is an attitude that a lot of New Yorkers brought/bring to the Miami Beach restaurant scene - which did nothing to improve dining in Miami Beach. Most of these participants are local - because - when you're from out of town like me - and don't get to New York that often - it's hard to figure out which places are most trendy - even if you care about what's most trendy (which I don't).

On the other hand - there are both in and out of town participants who are in it for the food - not the scene. Decor and service too. An overall great dining experience. I'm more or less in that category. And I'll gladly spend 2x instead of x to get that great dining experience as opposed to a not-so-great but trendy dining experience. These great restaurants may last longer than the trendy ones because it takes a while for those of us in the hinterlands to find out that they're not great anymore (whereas everyone in New York probably knows to the minute when a so-so but trendy restaurant ceases to be trendy).

Curiously - the older I get - the more my restaurant experiences wind up in 1 of 2 categories. Inexpensive or cheap (or really cheap) and ok. Like Waffle House . Or really expensive and fabulous. With nothing in the middle (the middle is eating at home). At some point - I just got tired of spending $100-200 (for 2) for mediocre/pedestrian meals. Robyn

[robyn]

Or, if they do survive, will they still be four-star restaurants? Or will they become barely star-worthy restaurants like the Four Seasons, which was once by all accounts among the best restaurants in America and is now taken seriously by exactly zero percent of the serious foodies I know; or even if they maintain their current standards will that be enough to merit four stars in 2020, 2030 and 2040?

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What's interesting about The Four Seasons, is that it is frequented by some sophisticated people who—although they're not "foodies"—have been around the block enough to tell the difference between fine dining and an imitation of it. It's not like One if By Land or Tavern on the Green, which really do survive almost solely on the tourist/B&T crowd.

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There was an interesting piece on CNBC about the Four Seasons. A lot of rich/famous frequent diners were interviewed. A surprising number eat exactly the same thing for lunch (which is when most rich/famous people tend to eat there) day after day - year after year. Like a lot of people. They just get a really good version of their regular meal - which usually isn't fussy - served in extremely nice surroundings - and a chance to maintain/make good contacts with other business people who matter to them. Now some of the meals are weird - one fellow ate a plate of spaghetti and a baked potato every day - but this is their regular lunch.

Don't most of us have a "regular" - a "go to" meal. I know I do - and I just feel bad I can't eat it at the Four Seasons every day . Robyn

Edited December 24, 2006 by robyn (log)

[Pan]

[...]Most of these participants are local - because - when you're from out of town like me - and don't get to New York that often - it's hard to figure out which places are most trendy - even if you care about what's most trendy (which I don't).[...]

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They're local compared to you, I do believe, but what percentage of them are B&T? I wonder who's keeping stats on that. There are people from some distance away who keep tabs on what's "hot" in "The City." We Manhattanites aren't looking to eat in "The City"; we live here. A trip to "The City" is an oxymoron for a Manhattanite. So the question is only whether we want to eat locally or take the subway downtown (etc.). But now think about the folks from Connecticut and Massachusetts and New Jersey and Pennsylvania who want to come in for a Broadway show and go somewhere that's "trendy and fabulous."

[Nathan]

Well Time Out is precisely what dictates "trendiness" in B&T terms. And since Time Out is heavily driven by PR placement -- there's not really a lag between "opened and trendy" and "B&T filled". About the only lag is when some places first open and you can't get in if you're not known to them. (Spice Market was a good example of this for the first month or so that it was open. Ditto for La Esquina.)

Where restaurants may have especially errored were those opening in the Meat Packing district. Three years ago locals were starting to avoid it on the weekends. Now it is entirely "over"...for locals that is. Maybe, with time, that will fade and restaurants that make it that long will garner local business again...but I wonder.

Of course, the nature of a restaurant's clientele won't necessarily be obvious to an out-of-town visitor or even past some generation gaps.

Just because I can spot the differences between twenty-five year olds from the LES/W-burg, SoHo--NoLIta and the UES....let alone LI or NJ, doesn't mean that it'll be obvious to others. I imagine that past a certain age all 25-year olds look alike.

[slkinsey]

Of the current four-star restaurants, Per Se is the only one planning for a Cuba after Fidel Castro.  "Legacy" is one of its eleven core values.

That's a nice idea and all, and I suppose we're meant to think they're such genii at Per Se and French Laundry that they'll come up with a brilliant strategy to make this happen. But these restaurants are so strongly identified with "the genius of Thomas" that I have a very hard time imagining how these restaurants will persist at anywhere near their current level after the eventual departure of Keller. This has nothing to do with how good they may continue to be, mind you, but everything to do with economics and perception. To continue your analogy, even if there were a plan for a Cuba without Castro (and there is no reason to suppose one doesn't exist), the smart money would still be on chaos down there once he dies.

[oakapple]

Well Time Out is precisely what dictates "trendiness" in B&T terms.

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Do you define "B&T" as "anyone who doesn't live in Manhattan," or specifically with a particular type of non-Manhattan resident (i.e., especially lowbrow and unsophisticated)?

[Nathan]

I defined it before as a specific type...I'd have to dig up the post.

I think I even asserted that you could live in Manhattan and be B&T (i.e. most of the residents of Normandie Court).

there are clear levels of B&T -- i.e. the gold-chain wearing guido types are one level.

another level can be well-educated and monied -- but they're clearly not from the city -- i.e. every woman in the group has her hair dyed blonde, the women are chewing gum for some unknown reason while drinking wine or cocktails (I have only seen this done by residents (or former residents) of NJ or LI...the rationale for it is a mystery to me....I've lived across the country and seen plenty of classless or unsophisticated regional behaviors -- but this particular one is unique to the area)...and both genders have a tendency to wear seasonally inappropriate clothing. (i.e. your sophisticated Manhattan woman might be out on a Saturday night in boots and a cashmere turtleneck -- her B&T equivalent is shivering in a plunging neckline and low-cut skirt -- a dead giveaway that someone watches too much sex in the city and thinks that a night out in the city is a big deal).

(heck, on this Friday night when you see a gaggle of young women in flimsy clothes and no jackets shivering as they walk down the street...if you stop to think for a moment you'll realize that they must have left their jackets in the car cause they were unwilling to use a coat-check)

It most certainly does not apply to every non-Manhattan resident.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[rich]

I defined it before as a specific type...I'd have to dig up the post.

I think I even asserted that you could live in Manhattan and be B&T (i.e. most of the residents of Normandie Court).

there are clear levels of B&T -- i.e. the gold-chain wearing guido types are one level.

another level can be well-educated and monied -- but they're clearly not from the city -- i.e. every woman in the group has her hair dyed blonde, the women are chewing gum for some unknown reason while drinking wine or cocktails (I have only seen this done by residents (or former residents) of NJ or LI...the rationale for it is a mystery to me....I've lived across the country and seen plenty of classless or unsophisticated regional behaviors -- but this particular one is unique to the area)...and both genders have a tendency to wear seasonally inappropriate clothing.  (i.e. your sophisticated Manhattan woman might be out on a Saturday night in boots and a cashmere turtleneck -- her B&T equivalent is shivering in a plunging neckline and low-cut skirt -- a dead giveaway that someone watches too much sex in the city and thinks that a night out in the city is a big deal).

It most certainly does not apply to every non-Manhattan resident.

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It better not - I haven't worn a "plunging neckline and low-cut skirt" in years.

[Fat Guy]

Even assuming such sweeping generalizations can meaningfully define a group of people, is this really the group that follows restaurant trends as reported in Time Out New York? I go to a decent number of new restaurants -- ones that have just been written up in Time Out, New York Magazine, "Off the Menu," etc. -- during their shakedown periods and I don't think I've ever found a lowbrow, unsophisticated, yokel crowd at one of them.

[Nathan]

new restaurants are definitely filled with the second crowd I described (which isn't necessarily "yokel" or "low-brow")

who do you think was filling the seats at STK the day that it opened?

edit: ultimate, the term is like the Roth obscenity formulation...you know it when you see it. I will say that to non-nightlife aficianados the delineations might not be obvious (i.e. just because I can look at one gaggle of 30 year olds and know that they all live in the EV/LES/W-burg while another is B&T (or possibly newly UES/Murray Hill)...doesn't mean that someone not of the same age group and going-out tendencies will find it obvious....but trust me bars and restaurants know who their crowd is.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

You may not be as good at identifying people's origins as you think, however if you define "B&T" paradoxically to include people who live in Manhattan then nobody is going to be able to test your hypothesis.

[Nathan]

anyone in my age group who goes out regularly knows exactly what I mean.

ask any bartender.

(Normandie Court and several similar buildings on the UES and Murray Hill are notorious for being "starter" buildings for people just out of college...some are famous for having entire floors from one fraternity or sorority)

[Sneakeater]

OF COURSE "B&T" now includes people who live in Manhattan. How else do you account for the fact that many neighborhoods in Brooklyn and Queens are now much cooler than several neighborhoods in Manhattan? (I guess that's why "Murray Hill" is now said as sneeringly as "B&T" used to be.)

Because it would be terrible to have to have this rather embarassing discussion twice:

http://forums.egullet.org/index.php?showto...88834&hl=sceney

[Nathan]

thanks for the link. Meghan pegged it exactly on that thread.

[Fat Guy]

anyone in my age group who goes out regularly knows exactly what I mean.

ask any bartender.

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That's some powerful testimony there.

[slkinsey]

WRT the "new restaurant crowd" and whether they are often comprised of B&T types... I think a lot of it depends on the restaurant. I don't think a lot of B&Ters were going to Landmarc after it opened, nor were there likely many at ADNY. However, there certainly does seem to be an archetypical person found in some concentration at Manhattan restaurants of a certain kind (places like Spice Market and Buddakan) in the opening months, along with what I might call members of the "executive assistants by day, would-be scenesters by night" demographic.

I've certainly observed an increased B&T quotient at, say, Pegu Club every time a mention runs in Time Out or New York Magazine.

[Eatmywords]

thanks for the link.  Meghan pegged it exactly on that thread.

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......pegged what?....that you're a bigger snob than she is?

This current day B&T breakdown is ridiculously stupid. Yes, I agree in the The 70's, 80's and even 90's you could make some broad distinctions in both appearance and behavior but those days are gone.

[Nathan]

FG: ask any bartender. I'm serious. this is hardly controversial among those who partake of NYC nightlife. its as self-evident to us as it is self-evident to any foodie that Manhattan Thai restaurants dumb down the food and sweeten it up for Western tastes.

[Nathan]

Eatmywords: huh? I've heard you use the term plenty of times. you know exactly the gum-chewing while wine-drinking demographic that I describe. who do you think composed half of our Hamptons house?

everyone should see slkinsey's post and link on the nightclub thread. like I said, its not controversial to anyone in the industry.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Nathan (log)

[Fat Guy]

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make, Nathan.

[Eatmywords]

Eatmywords:  huh?  I've heard you use the term plenty of times.  you know exactly the gum-chewing while wine-drinking demographic that I describe.  who do you think composed half of our Hamptons house?

everyone should see slkinsey's post and link on the nightclub thread.  like I said, its not controversial to anyone in the industry.

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Yea a few times, like when someone appears or talks like they've stepped off the set of Saturday Night Fever. The broad generalizations you're making are blown way out of proportion and based much more on your personal opinion.

[slkinsey]

Okay. It appears that the B&T fork of this discussion has run its useful course insofar as it relates to the topic of this thread. So let's move on. Thanks.

[bigkoiguy]

I have a solution to all of this. As soon as a restaurant is no longer trendy in NYC, ship it to us here in the hinterlands! They do this with Broadway Shows -- why not translate it to restaurants. I love big cities, but it would be nice to get that kind of dining in Topeka or San Diego when I visit. I'm only half-sarcastic with that comment. It drives me crazy that extremely talented people open trendy -- and probably financially risky -- restaurants in the city when opening a good restaurant in a mid-sized or small city can provide hungry (figuratively and literally) and ultimately devoted customers. Heck, here in interior Alaska, we're desperate for a good burger more or less foie gras! Is it all ego that drives people to open up in NYC versus Topeka???? Customer's income is obviously part of the calculation - but that doesn't seem to be all of it as there are many midsized cities with rich residents.