Fear of wines

[jessejesse]

Clerk: Excuse me, may i help you find something.

Customer: Well, yes actually. I was wondering if you all carried (insert random wine here).

Clerk: I'm sorry, we dont carry (wine) but i have some other (Those) that i highly recommend.

Customer: No, thats ok. If you ever see it, you should try it. You all could sell a ton of it in here. (Customer leaves store with a superb selection of wines without a second glance or purchase.)

"Never become a wine snob."

Those were the words that were once said to me after I, in poor taste, lifted my nose at a customer that was in the market for some yellowtail shiraz.

Since that moment I have handled all customers with a smile. This particular situation however has always been a problem for me to understand.

I should finish with two things (1) I work in two seperate wine shops in two different neighborhoods of New York City. (2) I am aware (as well as i can be) of how much media does effect ones purchasing choices to a great extent (ie. Sideways, Robert Parker, Mondo Vino, Wine Spectator, etc). The aforementioned topic has left me somewhat baffled in the way of articulate explanation. I usually just say something simple and slightly pretentious such as "America is just afraid of wine." Other than that I can't really provide much of a reason why this occurance is so common. I am looking for new thoughts, similar stories, anything that could help me understand this phenomenon. Thanks!

Edited September 27, 2006 by jessejesse (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

Welcome to eGullet, jessejesse.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but. . .

As someone who works in a wine shop, you probably have several "goals," some of which you are paid for, and maybe some of which you are not. 1) You are hired to sell wine. 2) You are hired to make customers happy. You are probably not hired to educate, "enlighten," or otherwise resuce customers from themselves unless it leads to the accomplish of 1 or 2.

The customer who purchases Yellow Tail Shiraz at your shop will come back to purchase more provided the price is fair, it's convenient to shop there, etc. Eventually the customer will purchase other tiems, too. The argument against stocking Yellow Tail is if the shop is targeting a different clientele for whom the presence of Yellow Tail would say "this isn't a serious wine shop." Maybe there's yet an underserved market of that type of customer in NYC, I don't know. A more legitimate reason not to carry Yellow Tail might be if the shop is a niche shop (such as Chambers Street Wines, which specializes in small production wines from around the world). For many, however, I would think Yellow Tail sales would allow them to stay in business and serve other customers who are looking for other wines. But it depends on the business model your employers have chosen to embrace.

In NYC, there may be enough customer niches. for many reatilers across the U.S., though, there is a wider range of customer palates they must pay attention to. And those include palates that prefer Yellow Tail, palates influenced only by media critics, and more "refined" palates (whatever that means).

Is the United States "afraid" of wine? No. I think some are "intimidated" by wine (and wine snobs, whether they work in wine shops or not). I think many are "uneducated" about wine, and not necessarily up for doing anything about it. And I think others have different priorities, which is perfectly okay.

Your service with a smile approach sounds like a good one -- as long as it's not a condescending smile.

[Rebel Rose]

Hello, jessejesse! I experience the same frustration from time to time. Those of us who love wine cannot walk into a wine store without hearing the siren song of undiscovered wines, but many people have a comfort zone that they are reluctant to leave, a wine or a style of wine that they enjoy. Sometimes it's as simple as knowing something about the winery or even being able to pronounce it. As long as they're happy . . .

[jessejesse]

Rebel rose,

That was basically what i was asking. Comfort zone definitely makes the most sense, for i suppose that we all have something similar (ie. what you order at your favorite breakfast, mexican, thai, joints), that we apply on a regular basis. I suppose that we need those types of things. Another query I have is do you think it is the same in other countries? With wine? Is this a common activity or is that just too general of a question to ask?

Thanks.

Edited September 27, 2006 by jessejesse (log)

[jessejesse]

Your service with a smile approach sounds like a good one -- as long as it's not a condescending smile.

←

Hey Brad,

Thanks for the welcome. I have been a fan of egullet for a very long time, i'm glad i can finally participate a bit.

Your post was accurate, I think, about a lot of things, but the question I was asking might have been hard to pick up on in my original post i'm afraid. Sorry.

For a little Clarity, the situation that I presented (with the clerk and customer dialogue) was the main topic. The Yellow tail anecdote was more of a little insight into how I personally conduct myself in front of customers. Always with a sincere and comforting smile. I think all bulk production wines serve there purpose, and as far as a customer enjoying that, i dont mind a bit. It's more when a patron is looking for a specific wine that they might have had at a restaurant or that was a gift from a friend. When they cant find it they feel as though it cannot possibly be matched by another.There is over what, 75,000 wines in the world and that is the only one? It does bother me a bit but it is mainly a comfort zone issue.

I also think that enjoying wine is very situational, some of the best wines i've ever drank, were 10-20 dollar bottles with a couple of friends over lunch or a simple meal. It was an amazing experience. Most of the time, personally, i never attempt to relive that stuation. It's funny though, when you work in a wine shop how much it bothers you that you cant turn someone on to another wine because they are so comforted by the one that they want.

[JohnL]

I agree with everything Brad said.

Here's my three cents.

I worked in marketing and advertising for many years before entering the wine trade here in New York.

A purchase decision is reached via many ways often many considerations.

Your role at the retail level as a salesperson is often only one small part of this.

First, that customer has determined what they want to buy. They may have reached this decision in many ways. Friend's recommendation, a magazine article, advertising, a tasting event (they may or may not have tasted the wine before entering your store), a critic's recommendation, a combination of any/all of the above, whatever.

They may or may not be receptive to an alternative. There are hundreds of wine shops in Manhattan (plus the internet and catalogs) where they can find what they are looking for.

If they are a regular customer of yours, you may have established a level of trust or they may still not be open to your alternative advice--they simply want a specific wine.

Reading into this is sheer folly and attempting to generalize about people's "comfort" or lack thereof is also wrong.

It is important to understand that it is wrong to feel someone should trust you because you work in a wine shop. They have little or no idea who you are or what your expertise is or if you could understand what they are looking for-- they only know you are selling wine.

Unfortunately, I can personally attest to more failed than successful instances where (as a consumer) I accepted advice from a wine salesperson.

Often, though, customers will be willing to accept your recommendation, it is just plain wrong to expect them to every time.

It is a shame, but, the state of the business is such that while there are many fine and knowledgeable people working in retail there are plenty of people who are not so good at selling or understanding wine.

So, people arrive at a purchase decision via many ways (all are valid to one degree or another).

They may or may not be receptive to your suggestions--they may or may not be looking for a "comfort" level. You may or may not get an opportunity to show them what you know.

Maybe they live in another part of town and just happened to be in your neighborhood and don't want to establish a relationship with you and your shop. Maybe they are buying the wine for someone else. There are a hundred potential reasons that have nothing to do with you personally or your shop.

I certainly wouldn't question their motivation.

Edited September 27, 2006 by JohnL (log)

[Rebel Rose]

Another query I have is do you think it is the same in other countries? With wine? Is this a common activity or is that just too general of a question to ask?

Yes, I think it is. Your analogy about regional and ethnic foods is very valid. I am a curious eater, but most of my friends stick with what they know they will enjoy. For many people, the opportunity to relax over a meal or a bottle of wine is rare, and they want to order or buy something they know they can enjoy.

I'm guilty of that as well. I have a favorite restaurant here in Paso Robles, Villa Creek, that used to serve this fabulous duck plate--tender, juicy slices of breast, garlic mashed potatoes, and jalapeno jelly--and since my male companions would invariably drink syrah, it was always my choice. I got so boring that when the owner walked by me, he would mutter, "Quack, quack, quack!"

[JohnL]

Another query I have is do you think it is the same in other countries? With wine? Is this a common activity or is that just too general of a question to ask?

Yes, I think it is. Your analogy about regional and ethnic foods is very valid. I am a curious eater, but most of my friends stick with what they know they will enjoy. For many people, the opportunity to relax over a meal or a bottle of wine is rare, and they want to order or buy something they know they can enjoy.

I'm guilty of that as well. I have a favorite restaurant here in Paso Robles, Villa Creek, that used to serve this fabulous duck plate--tender, juicy slices of breast, garlic mashed potatoes, and jalapeno jelly--and since my male companions would invariably drink syrah, it was always my choice. I got so boring that when the owner walked by me, he would mutter, "Quack, quack, quack!"

←

These are good points.

However, I sense an attempt to generalize a bit here.

The fact is, everyone is seeking a comfort level to one degree or another.

Food, wine, clothing, automobile, homes/neighborhoods to live in etc etc etc.

Everyone all over the world.

In America we just have more choices more options. Even with wine. We are not locked into

a tradition of drinking the "local wine."

(not that tradition is bad).

If Americans were not adventurous to a fairly large degree, there wouldn't be so many varieties of wines from so many countries sold here.

If faced with the situation you cite, I would engage that customer---providing I sensed they were not in a hurry.

I would ask what they like about the specific wine they are looking for and how they came to "discover" it --or why they are interested in it.

from there I would let them know that I am aware of the wine (maybe I tasted it) and understand their interest in it. This takes a couple of minutes--then I suggest an alternative.

Too many salespersons are "programmed" --if they ask for this sell em that.

What selling is about is understanding the customer and his/her needs and motivations and then providing an option. Even if this person remains unconvinced they will remember that you took interest in them and may return!

Remember, you have no other way of knowing how that person came to want the wine they are asking for--what possible trial and error they went through etc.

[wkl]

"If Americans were not adventurous to a fairly large degree, there wouldn't be so many varieties of wines from so many countries sold here."

America is a huge and wealthy market for any product. I think it's our amount of disposable income that drives the amount of wine available here. If our palates were so adventurous wouldn't we be sucking down mass quantities of marcilliac, juracon sec, and madiran instead of yellow tail shiraz?

[JohnL]

"If Americans were not adventurous to a fairly large degree, there wouldn't be so many varieties of wines from so many countries sold here."

America is a huge and wealthy market for any product. I think it's our amount of disposable income that drives the amount of wine available here. If our palates were so adventurous wouldn't we be sucking down mass quantities of marcilliac, juracon sec, and madiran instead of yellow tail shiraz?

←

The popularity of wines is not necessarily a result of a market being adventurous or not.

If one looks at the history of the wines you note as well as the nature of the grapes used to make them it is easy to see why they have not become widely popular. Perhaps you would like to specify which wines from these regions you are noting. --there are many and many styles.

(one reason for the relative lack of popularity here). Incidentally, these wines have had trouble gaining popularity in the French market where they compete with other French wines.

That said, there are some good reasons why more of them will arrive in wine shops here and more people will try them.

As for Yellowtail, it is a well made easy to drink wine. Attributes a lot of people in many countries around the look for. It is aggressively marketed and it is available (the Australians are brilliant in marketing wine here and elsewhere). It is competing with simple basic low priced table wines from all over the world available here.

Let's face it. Average wine drinkers most anywhere in the world drink basic everyday table wines.

Many people who enjoy Yellowtail drink other wines and many are willing to try other wines--I see em all the time in the wineshop.

We have our own wine industry here in addition to imports. If we were not adventurous then how to explain the explosion of the Rhone Rangers here?

Or the popularity of Malbecs from Argentina or the wines from all over Spain? How about Portugal?

We are seeing new wines from Italy both red and white--from primitivo to vermentino--soave's back as well as Bardolino and....

I am starting to see more wines from Greece and there has been some great growth for Austria's Gruner.

It takes time.

If the wines are good and they are available --people will try them and we can sell them.

[Brad Ballinger]

For a little Clarity, the situation that I presented (with the clerk and customer dialogue) was the main topic.

←

In that case, I agree with the comfort zone thing, and would also add predictability as a factor. The customer knows the wine, knows what it tastes like, knows he or she likes it, may even know what food to serve with it, and so on. And, for many people, wine is an expensive beverage, even at $10/bottle. The customer is also thinking "I don't know about risking $10 -- or more -- on something that I know nothing about."

I like the ethnic food analogy. And, as a parent of a picky teenager, I've stopped trying to broaden her palate after spending plenty of money on uneaten pates of food, and have had to suck it up taking her to places whose door this food snob never thought he'd darken.

Travel also provides us an analogy. I'm sure you know plenty of people who have the means to travel to a foreign country, but would never do it.

[wkl]

" If we were not adventurous then how to explain the explosion of the Rhone Rangers here?"

because french rhones are popular here?

"The popularity of wines is not necessarily a result of a market being adventurous or not.

If one looks at the history of the wines you note as well as the nature of the grapes used to make them it is easy to see why they have not become widely popular"

but if we were truly, adventurous, as you stated, wouldn't these wines be more popular? i guess i'm just not following what you are trying to

say.

i can specify producers, if that is what you mean, not sure what that would prove, however.

all i'm saying is, the large majority of american wine consumers are not adventurous.

[Kouign Aman]

Having been the customer in the described situation.....

I had two different experiences that day.

In the first shop, they did not carry the wine I was seeking, but I was offered a short list of 'other good white wines'.

Because I had a particular flavor profile in mind, and was shy, I thanked the clerk politely and left.

The next shop did not have the wine either. I expect they had ~ 100% inventory overlap with the first shop. BUT I left with a bottle of wine and a certain confidence in it because. Because the clerk asked me what I had liked about the wine I was seeking. Which led me to believe that when he recommended a wine, it would be similar enough to meet my wishes. (and it was, tho distinctly different from the wine of search).

Im guessing the two clerks were equally knowledgeable about their wines, but one of them knew how to get key information from a customer, and thus was able to make a sale.

[Brad Ballinger]

Excellent point, Kouign Aman.

That second clerk performed enough customer service to find out what would be a suitable alternative, whereas the first clierk went straight to the solution without fully understanding the situation.

[jsmeeker]

Is the United States "afraid" of wine?  No.  I think some are "intimidated" by wine (and wine snobs, whether they work in wine shops or not).  I think many are "uneducated" about wine, and not necessarily up for doing anything about it.  And I think others have different priorities, which is perfectly okay.

←

I think this is spot on. There are SO many wines out there (not just varieties and styles, but all the examples WITHIN those varieties and styles) that it's mind bogling.

I'm trying to learn more about wine. I'm learning, which is good, but in a way, it's "bad" becasue as I learn a little, I learn that there is much more to learn! Ughhh... It's crazy.

It's fun, though. I enjoy wine. So far, I really haven't had much "bad" wine. And by "bad", I mean something that just really disagreed with me. Of course, my tastes haven't been fully developed, so I'm sure I've enjoyed a lot of wines that many here would call "swill" (or is it "plonk"??)

[Rebel Rose]

I'm learning, which is good, but in a way, it's "bad" becasue as I learn a little, I learn that there is much more to learn!  Ughhh...    It's crazy. 

Join the crowd!

Wine can be a lifelong hobby. But it should not consume your life.

Or, like me, you will find yourself debt-qualified, as Kent Rosenblum of Rosenblum Cellars so appropriately phrased it.

[ludja]

...

The next shop did not have the wine either. I expect they had ~ 100% inventory overlap with the first shop. BUT I left with a bottle of wine and a certain confidence in it because.  Because the clerk asked me what I had liked about the wine I was seeking. Which led me to believe that when he recommended a wine, it would be similar enough to meet my wishes. (and it was, tho distinctly different from the wine of search).

Im guessing the two clerks were equally knowledgeable about their wines, but one of them knew how to get key information from a customer, and thus was able to make a sale.

←

Along similar lines and addressing Brad Ballinger's point about food-wine parings, another helpful part of the conversation would be for the wine store clerk to inquire about what they want to serve the wine with.

This type of conversation could also help to transmit confidence to the potential buyer. They may not fear *tasting* new wines but they might be apprehensive to try an unknown wine without understanding if it would fit with their meal, etc.

This "tactic" and that described by Kouign Aman have definately encouraged me to buy a wine different than the one I was originally looking for. Now, I typically engage in this type of converstation even if they have the wine I have in mind and if I'm in a store wtih a knowledgable clerk. It's another potential learning experience!

Edited September 27, 2006 by ludja (log)

[JohnL]

Excellent point, Kouign Aman.

That second clerk performed enough customer service to find out what would be a suitable alternative, whereas the first clierk went straight to the solution without fully understanding the situation.

←

This is exactly what I noted in my earlier post.

This is not brain surgery it is simple basic selling technique.

As I also noted--too few wine shops understand, let alone employ them.

Successful sales (of anything) is about understanding the customers' needs and wants and

fulfilling them.

I rarely follow any recommendation unless the sales person takes the few minutes

to find out what my interests are.

The worst thing a sales person can do is make assumptions about any customer. What they need to do first is:

--find out what the customer is going to do with the wine. Is it to go with dinner?

(what are they pairing the wine with?) is it a gift for someone else? (what kind of person is the gift for?) what wine's have the customer had that they like? Dislike? Does the customer seem to be interested in trying new things?

This goes for sommeliers too!

Nothing annoys me more than a sommelier (experienced or fresh out of wine school) saying --"ok you are having the veal and she is having the salmon--I got a killer wine for you."

Some simple questions to determine my level of experience with wine and what I might like and what price I would be comfortable with would be better!

What I am seeing in wine and spirits today is a better emphasis on education which is good--

but a distinct lack of selling knowledge/skills.

Part of the problem is that wine retail sales jobs are relatively low paying so you tend to get the wine geek who has awful selling ability.

A good sales person will avoid these jobs because they can make much more money with their talents selling myriad other things.

So, the industry would do well to provide some sales training.

Unfortunately, there are few in the business at retail or wholesale who are very skilled here.

A good thing is keeping customer data bases and trying to establish and maintain a good relationship with customer by understanding that customer's likes and dislikes.

Customers trust people who take an interest in their likes and dislikes and possess the knowledge (and inventory) to meet those needs!

Edited September 28, 2006 by JohnL (log)