The French and Ice

[Busboy]

I remember being so hot in Italy one June, looking everywhere for a truly cold drink (I couldn't find any granitas, even), and finally giving in and going into a McDonalds, sure that I'd get an icy coke.

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I grew up in Santa Rosa, California eating snow cones sold from

Mr. Benicasa's van. That was in the 40's & early 50's

For those too young to remember them a snow cone is simply crushed ice with some fruit syrup poured over it.

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As for wanting an icy Coke, well, here I have to say that the other American peculiarity is a taste for something made from diluted icky-sweet syrup to sip while eating Salade Nicoise or Pizza Margherita. Italians have their iced teas flavored with a cloyingly sweet peach juice, but these cold drinks are served on their own.

The difference between the glass of cold water and the one with ice cubes is technological. When you look at the way this thread is unfolding, don't you detect a bit of the Kitchen Debate in the air? Or Ronald Reagan during his days as spokesman for General Electric?

Does the habit of putting ice cubes in our drinks stem from a Post-WWII campaign to promote the glory of the nation as reflected in the way technological progress serves the American Home? In a belief in the superiority and democratic accessibility of our refrigerators and the nifty, modern ice cube tray? (N.B. Please trust the ironic tone. This is a call for more cultural history, not a challenge.)

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America's taste for soft drink and iced tea with meals surely has legitimate roots in our somewhat arms-length relationship with alcohol. Until lately, only a tiny fraction of American homes poured wine or even beer at dinner, the drinks that were served gained little nuance from being less-chilled.

We Yanks do love our appliances, and we're much more inclined to change our environment than adapt to it (that's how most of us got here -- we have malcontented DVA). But any appliance-oriented discussion should also take into account more mundane factors such as the fact that the U.S. is much hotter than most of Europe: New York City, for example, is as hot as Rome, hotter than Nice and significantly hotter than Paris; try comparing LA and London, or Moscow and Miami on this website.

I wonder what the urban/rural population breakdown in, say, 1960, between the U.S. and Europe.. When I think of ice and air conditioning, I think of the difference between living stacked up in an apartment building and living in a house or one of those well-adapted "European Brownstones"* that open up for the evening breeze.

*A small-town dwelling, or in an older section of a major city: two or three stories tall, thick stone walls, tile roof. Enter a dark, cool, cave-like loggia. Find two or maybe three dwellings per story, characterized by high ceilings and a good number of shuttered windows on two or three sides, allowing for a nice cross breeze. Is there a technical term for these besides "old apartment houses?"

[menton1]

I think the Americans' love of ice has evolved and gotten stronger in the last couple of decades.

One of the persuasive factors has been the intentional copious use of ice by fast food stands and anywhere fountain drinks are served. The idea was that the ice costs a lot less than the product, so let's use more ice and less product. A typical 16 oz fountain soda costs the restaurant about 8 cents of product and 10 cents for the cup. Retail price= $1.49. Nice profit. If you watch Starbucks make an iced coffee, they only fill the cup up halfway with coffee, the rest ice.

The Europeans have just not assimilated this ice-mentality into their lives. This is definitely a cultural difference, IMHO.

P.S. Rome and Southern Italy are pretty darn hot, and air conditioning (and ice!) are just as scarce there as the rest of Europe. So climate is only a small factor.

[Lone Star]

To be perfectly honest, I must admit that when I still lived in the U.S. forty-plus years ago, I loved ice in almost any non-alcoholic drink and often sucked on an ice cube, even in ambient heat that was only moderate. These days, I almost never make use of the ice cubes in our fridge-freezer that are there for the taking. Is it an age thing? Or have I simply rejected Cubism?

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Perhaps you have just been broken up and re-assembled?

[FoodMan]

Not just European or Canadian, In Lebanon you do not get that much ice either. It is not because it is not available, but it's a matter of taste. I've been in the US for over 10 years and I still request my soda with "very easy ice". I like it like that, it is properly chilled and still tastes like pepsi and I get no brain freeze. My father in law thinks it is the wierdest thing how I put no ice in my water when I drink it. Him on the other hand, he fills the whole damn glass with crushed ice and dilutes the ice with water. I HATE ice water, it simply does not quench my thirst.

For alcoholic drinks, some are served with one ice cube (Arak for example), others it depends on the drinker. I like 2 in my scotch and a lot more in Gin.

[John Whiting]

Perhaps you have just been broken up and re-assembled?

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I'm just a pastiche with a pastis.

[Champagne Sadie]

This thread contains some of the fuuniest and patronising posts I've ever read on EG.

Thanks you guys.

[MarketStEl]

America's taste for soft drink and iced tea with meals surely has legitimate roots in our somewhat arms-length relationship with alcohol. Until lately, only a tiny fraction of American homes poured wine or even beer at dinner, the drinks that were served gained little nuance from being less-chilled. 

I would characterize America's relationship with alcohol as "love/hate" more than "arm's length"; to judge from some of the descriptions of colonial America and the early US in The Alcoholic Republic, an obscure but well-written history of alcohol use in early America, the country was drenched in the stuff in the Revolutionary era (and here in Philadelphia, we are well aware of the role taverns played in the formation of the new nation and some of its institutions).

But I do agree with your larger point, which is that since Americans are not in the habit of raising their children to regard alcohol as part of the meal, and are more likely to shun it completely than Europeans are, we don't get the nuance of beverages as naturally as our Eurocounterparts seem to.

We Yanks do love our appliances

Ultimately, wasn't that what the Kitchen Debate was about?

and we're much more inclined to change our environment than adapt to it (that's how most of us got here -- we have malcontented DVA).  But any appliance-oriented discussion should also take into account more mundane factors such as the fact that the U.S. is much hotter than most of Europe: New York City, for example, is as hot as Rome, hotter than Nice and significantly hotter than Paris; try comparing LA and London, or Moscow and Miami on this website.

I wonder what the urban/rural population breakdown in, say, 1960, between the U.S. and Europe.. When I think of ice and air conditioning, I think of the difference between living stacked up in an apartment building and living in a house or one of those well-adapted "European Brownstones"* that open up for the evening breeze.

*A small-town dwelling, or in an older section of a major city: two or three stories tall, thick stone walls, tile roof.  Enter a dark, cool, cave-like loggia.  Find two or maybe three dwellings per story, characterized by high ceilings and a good number of shuttered windows on two or three sides, allowing for a nice cross breeze.  Is there a technical term for these besides "old apartment houses?"

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I'd go so far as to suggest that even urban Americans were not housed in structures that were designed to keep cool naturally the way the houses you describe above are. But then again, you don't find houses of that type too often in London, either, and there is a more than passing resemblance between older US city residential districts and, say, Kensington (the London neighborhood, not the Philadelphia one).

Even so, American single-family houses used to have features--those deep porches, for instance--that also naturally kept them cooler in the summer; these were discarded in the great post-World War II autopian suburban boom.

I guess I must be getting half-European in my later years. I find that a lot of interior spaces in the US are overly air conditioned. But I loves me some ice in my drinks!

[Carlovski]

I used to work regularly in my parents pub in the UK. We only had limited fridge space (It was a small local pub) and we could only fit in a few soft drinks, and only then in summer. So a lot of times if anyone wanted a coke (we only had it in bottles) they had to have a warm one of the shelf - or if we were quiet enough at least one out of the cellar. But a lot of people still wanted it with no ice - and those bottle got pretty warm behind the bar.

[kelly001]

Well if you are using ice as a mean of cooling off, you are defeating the purpose...

Iced drinks make your body work harder, because it has to restore the body temperature back to normal range, in addition to digesting whatever you have consumed. During hot weather, it is therefore best to consume liquids at close to body temperature, if you want to have the optimum health benefit.

[bleudauvergne]

Kelly's is quite a logical explanation if you ask me. Charles, you can rest assured that this is what's up.

[hjshorter]

Well if you are using ice as a mean of cooling off, you are defeating the purpose...

It is, however, useful in keeping food from spoiling. I believe that was one of the reasons Charles was searching for it.

[Hiroyuki]

A Swiss friend admonished me not to drink cold beverages when eating hot food, because it would interfere with proper digestion. It's always been my understanding that by the time a cold drink makes its way down your gullet, it has been warmed to body temperature -- but a couple of months ago I read some ayurvedic Indian advice (maybe a link from eGullet?) essentially recommending the same thing.

It was also explained to me by a Chinese friend that the Chinese traditionally prefer not to drink ice cold drinks with hot meals, as it affects the Chi. That's why they drink hot tea, although this practice is changing. I frequently see Chinese families at Dim Sum having Cokes and Ginger Ales along with their hot tea.

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But isn't it the opposite in Japan? Hot sake with cold courses and iced sake with hot? Is Japan a nation suffering from indigestion?

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Yep, we are more like Americans than European in that regard. Besides, filling the glass with ice is a tricky way to "water down" a skimpy amount of juice.

[Busboy]

Well if you are using ice as a mean of cooling off, you are defeating the purpose...

Iced drinks make your body work harder, because it has to restore the body temperature back to normal range, in addition to digesting whatever you have consumed. During hot weather, it is therefore best to consume liquids at close to body temperature, if you want to have the optimum health benefit.

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This sounds dubious to me, especially given that what I'm usually drinking is water, not the most difficult to digest of substances. And, indeed, the cravings for cold drinks are generally accompanied by signs that my body is, far from worried about getting back UP to temperature, in fact eager for whatever help in can get in cooling down -- sweat glands in overdrive, for example, or delirious visions of vacationing in Lapland.

[Gary Marshall]

This thread contains some of the fuuniest and patronising posts I've ever read on EG.

Thanks you guys. 

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yes, i nearly choked on my warm beer, it's a classic.

and to think all that money i've been wasting on cellar refrigeration in the pub