"M" Restaurant.

[matthewj]

Good food. I mean as quality stand point. Working in a restuarant, many times guest will look at the price tag first. ( not all but a lot) , then look at the ingredients. That is why restuarants are able to hoodwink guests into thinking they are eating and paying for gold when in actuality it is only ferrus.

Believe me if you ate a Lacroix a lot of the ingredients that I used were not noble

but we elevated the quality with technique, and culinary prowless.

If I were to pick a fish from Brown trading or Sxxxxxx and sxxx, I would choose Brown every time I know it is better. I know the quality. I know that they handle it better. They have my best interest in mind. I will, as a retail agent pay the premium for that product. The guest always deserve the best. But sometimes that is not what they receive. but thatis going to reflect in the price tag.

[bigboss]

I agree with you Mr. Libkind that there are some good fish to be had at RTM, the most reliable of which you named (fluke, mackerel and porgies). But even these are of questionable quality in comparison to what I and Matthewj have received from purveyors like Browne or that sushi fish company whose name escapes me (help Matt). And they are not really overpriced compared to the local fish companies. As for the European fish varieties, I am fully aware that they were probably harvested from local waters and delivered directly. However, some of these varieties could have easily been the farm-raised ones that get shipped overseas to us here and that are of impeccable quality upon arrival. They don't sit in the hull of a fishing boat for two weeks, on a dock for a day or two and then at John Yi's for another couple of days. My point had more to do with the customer expectations of that random open-air market in the middle of a small town in France versus that of a large historic market in the middle of a cosmopolitan city. Fish like flukes and porgies are regularly caught off the Atlantic coast not 60 miles from Philadelphia; yet I can get better quality of these fish shipped here. That shouldn't be the case.

[matthewj]

Kumolo... I love her

[rlibkind]

I agree with you Mr. Libkind that there are some good fish to be had at RTM, the most reliable of which you named (fluke, mackerel and porgies).  But even these are of questionable quality in comparison to what I and Matthewj have received from purveyors like Browne or that sushi fish company whose name escapes me (help Matt).

Again, no argument. Alas, what is available to the professional kitchen is rarely available to the home cook in this country.

As for the European fish varietie . . . some of these varieties could have easily been the farm-raised ones that get shipped overseas to us here and that are of impeccable quality upon arrival.

Again, no argument. On occasion I've seen some fairly good looking European sea bass (a.k.a. loup de mer and bronzino) at Golden Seafood at the RTM, though I don't know whether or not that's a farm-raised variety. That's one of the distinct advantages of aquaculture, though there more than offsetting disadvantages.

The answer to all of this is more knowledgeable and demanding consumers. That's why I'm pushing folks to try the local fish like porgies, butterfish, black sea bass, etc., and let their fishmongers know what is and is not up to snuff.

[Vadouvan]

Yo Matt.....I am going to have to give you spelling lessons.....

"KOMOLO"...our little friend Mi-sun......she does sell great fish.

Also TrueWorld Foods.....The Japanese division.

Pre-Katrina, there was some really good stuff from the Prawn Corporation of America in Metiarire.

Lots to ponder here. You're right, the city could use better fish markets, and a lot of the fish I see at the three RTM stalls doesn't meet my standards. But if you are selective, you can find some fine fish there. They offer plenty of whole fish, so you can better judge the quality. About a month ago I had some Alaskan halibut from John Yi's that was surprisingly fresh. (Of course, it could well have been frozen, though I don't think so; nonetheless, properly frozen and handled frozen fish can frequently be better than fresh.) Nice, very firm halibut steaks, full of meaty halibut flavor. It was handled with care. I also made a trip a couple of weeks ago to Ippolito's, the retail division of Samuels & Sons; I was generally disappointed with the store (no mackeral?) but the whole fluke I purchased was very fresh and sweet; almost as good if I can caught it myself.

Your dead-on in saying the reason people get tasteless fish is because they want it that way. Sigh. Yet, at least some people must want fish that has taste. Or maybe it's price. Mackeral, one of the world's tastiest fishes, can be obtained at less than $3/pound from the RTM fishmongers. Only slightly more expensive is porgy. And guess what? Porgy is a sea bream. You know what they call sea bream in France? Dorade! (Admittedly, it's a particular variety, in this case -- dorade in France, gilthead sea bream in the UK -- and its flavor profile is a little different from other bream. But not that different.)

Which brings me to your list of wonderful fish at the Rouen market, bigboss. Look over that list of finfish, and I think you'll find that all of them are landed along the northwest coast of France, maybe 50 or 60 miles from Rouen. (I think the shellfish are also local.) So, the fish you cite as so pristine and fresh are LOCAL fish. They are not imported from half a continent away or a distant corner of the world.

And that's the secret of good fish: fresh and local. So don't expect to get a fresh John Dory here; that's asking too much. (By the same token, I think it would be unreasonable to expect fresh-caught bluefish in Rouen.)

1. The fresh fish=local fish is always a cop out.

The real issue here is transportation and storage. What really happens is several people along the chain of distribution right down to the end user take the cheap way out thereby diminishing quality at every step. I have had maguro, O-toro and Chu-toro at the Tsukiji fish market that was caught off the coast of New Jersey.

http://www.tsukiji-market.or.jp/tukiji_e.htm

It's just that the culture of seafood retailing in America is clueless and seafood inspection is lax.

The big container companies who carry seafood around the world do so very quickly and efficiently, they even have refrigerated self contained gigantic containers..

Hapag Lloyd

Sealand

Maersk

P&O Nedloyd

All these gets dragged over to Packer Avenue right in front of the stadium.

That's where things slowly go downhill.

Between, Samuel's, Frank Hopkins and Liberty Fish you can buy decent to OK fish which is where 99% of the retail outlets pick up fish.

The RTM people...

The washington avenue asian grocers who rarely use refrigerated trucks.

Ect Ect.

In order to get truly excellent stuff, you are going to have to hook up with a good negotiant of which the best in Philly is Tony McCarthy.

So people put fish admittedly in boxes with ice on the backs of the pickup trucks and take it to RTM..........they just dont care.

And even after it gets there, it isnt properly refrigerated, the refigerators are not cold enough.

Trust me, I have pointed a Raytek infra-red thermometer at every fish case in reading terminal and nothing even approaches 42C which is the maximum.

http://support.fluke.com/raytek-sales/down...1-1101_revf.pdf.

As far as taste, the reason people like mild fish is because the retail fish industry is just absymal and few of us perhaps except those who grew up in Louisiana, Seattle,Rhode Island or Florida have fond memories of fish while growing up.

We also cannot dictate taste.

So Mackerel has a stronger taste but most people dont like it not because they are simpletons, it's the same reason some people will prefer chicken or duck over squab or scottish pheasant or pork over Boar.

If anything, the Japanese eat every thing from mild stuff like Onaga and Kampachi to Sawara aka Spanish mackerel.

Ultimately it's about being cheap.

Even restaurants cut corners, Traulsen makes refrigerators for fish, those of you in the biz know how it works.

It's also that Philly is far behind other cities in terms of fish distribution.

The Billingsgate market in london is fantastic as is the new york fish market.

You just have to get retailer who get it.

On a daily basis for example, you can get better seafood and fish at "Citarella" on 6th Ave than you can at the Philadelphia Regional seafood Market.....

[Vadouvan]

To Add.....Rouen is also in Normady which is very far from the Mediterranean......but somehow they have all the medi-fish superfresh.

Strangely enough the city is actually famous for Ducks......hence the term "Rouennaise" in french duck dishes.

Edited June 22, 2006 by Vadouvan (log)

[Buckethead]

As this thread seems to be teeming with seafood junkies and aficionados, I was wondering if anyone can offer their opinions on Ippolito's, seafood vendor on Dickinson St. a block east of Broad? I just moved into that area, the place is about a 2 minute walk from my front door. I got a chunk of halibut there a couple weeks ago and cooked it on the grill, it tasted fine to me but I'm new to liking seafood. How do they stack up against other vendors in the city?

[KatieLoeb]

As this thread seems to be teeming with seafood junkies and aficionados, I was wondering if anyone can offer their opinions on Ippolito's, seafood vendor on Dickinson St. a block east of Broad? I just moved into that area, the place is about a 2 minute walk from my front door. I got a chunk of halibut there a couple weeks ago and cooked it on the grill, it tasted fine to me but I'm new to liking seafood. How do they stack up against other vendors in the city?

←

If I'm not mistaken, Ippolito's is the consumer retail arm of one of the larger commercial fish purveyors in town. That logo of the fish is the same but I can't think of which company the parent is.

Vadouvan? Matthew(s)? Greg(s)? Any chefs/restaurateurs around to confirm?

To answer your question - I've always gotten pretty good fish from there for home use. And they're open Sundays if I'm not mistaken, which is always a good thing for last minute fish emergencies.

[Vadouvan]

Samuels and Son.

They sell mostly whatever doesnt quite meet restaurant standard or surplus.

I am not saying they sell bad fish, I am just saying the absolute best stuff goes to restaurants and premium prices.

For the most part, all the fish and produce at the Italian market is B to C grade.

[TarteTatin]

We go to Cape May often for family visits. Every trip we take our big cooler. We go into the Lobster House's Take Out section. There, I ask everytime, what is local, what they just have caught. They tell me, and that's what we order.

Mostly it's Flounder, Bluefish, Cape May salts, Scallops...Lobster's are dirt cheap. $7.99 a pound last time, for the 1 1/4-1 1/2 pounders.

We fill up our cooler, plus they give us ice to get back to Philly, for as many meals as we can eat in a few days (asking them how long each will last in the fridge).

That is our routine.

We also aren't satisfied with RTM fish, and hubby likes to eat fish often. He likes the stronger tastes (I don't know if it's from living in England for 10 years?), I like Crustacheans mainly, and river trout. (Although when we were in Halifax I fell in love with Halibut or Haddock - I get mixed up)

[Capaneus]

Is Gayle-ish a positive nod or less than positive? I got the impression it was not positive. I do, however, agree they have some weird pairings indeed but we all really loved the food when we were there.

Actually It's neither as I havent actually been to Gayle yet.

My term "Gayle-ish" wierd just refer's to the fact that they pair fresh un-oxidised Tuna with lamb.

Again, I havent had the dish but I think most people would agree it's wierd and I suspect it doesnt work....?

Did you try it ?

"Tastes of Tuna and lamb" ?

←

Actually, I did try it. I'd say it works, to some extent, purely as an intellectual exercise. The preparations are bridged by a couple of ingredients, and I could kind of see where Stern was going.

On the other hand, it wasn't all that much fun to eat, really. I wouldn't order it again.

[rlibkind]

As this thread seems to be teeming with seafood junkies and aficionados, I was wondering if anyone can offer their opinions on Ippolito's, seafood vendor on Dickinson St. a block east of Broad? I just moved into that area, the place is about a 2 minute walk from my front door. I got a chunk of halibut there a couple weeks ago and cooked it on the grill, it tasted fine to me but I'm new to liking seafood. How do they stack up against other vendors in the city?

←

In terms of what you can easily get in the city short of taking out a mortgage before buying, the most important thing is to educate yourself about buying fish. Know how to gauge the relative freshness by look and smell (since few fishmongers will let you poke). If it smells like fish, don't buy it. (It should have the clean smell of the sea.) If it's a pre-cut filet and the flesh looks flabby and is starting to separate, don't buy it. Best bet: buy a whole fish and have the fishmonger filet it or dress it to order.

As to the individual fishmongers...

Ippolito's. I was there for the first time about two or three weeks ago. It's the retail arm of Samuels & Son, a major wholesaler/restaurant supplier in Philadelphia. (Actually, the business started out as Ippolito's and S&S was created from the retail base.) I wasn't all that impressed with the variety, but you can obtain a decent fish there. I picked up a whole flatfish and had it cut to order. The overall quality is on a par with the Reading Terminal Market vendors, but again, that varies by day and species. Still, since most of the RTM vendors are probably buying their fish from the same source, they should be comparable, with the caveat of handling discrepencies which, as others here have astutely noted, are critical when it comes to seafood.

At the Reading Terminal Market there are three fresh fish vendors: Golden, John Yi and Wan's. If I want to buy fish, I check out what each has and then decide based on the available varities and quality. Golden is the only one who regularly has dry scallops, and is more likely than the others to have fresh sardines (herring). John Yi will tend to have a larger variety. Wan's is more likely to have skate.

I forget the name of the vendor at the Italian Market (maybe it was D'Arigo?), but the same basics apply. I agree with Vadouvan -- B&C grade at best -- though the one time I picked up a Spanish mackeral there it was fine.

Except for frozen fish (and some frozen fish is excellent) rather than set your heart on a particular variety, the best bet is to see what's available and select from the best of that.

[matthewj]

OK We have established that my spelling is deplorable. That is why i always had Meghan proof my menus.

One of the most informative books is a Book called the Fish Encyclopedia. It has a listing of fish from A-Z. but experience is the best tool I have found. Just keep trying. If anyone is interested, and you are friends with someone in the business ask them to buy your fish for you and get a separate invoice. So essentially you would pay C.O.D..

[bigboss]

I have COD'd fish for the house from Samuels and Sons through work with no problems. Similarly, I imagine that one could just special order fish from Samuels and Sons through Ippolito's with a day's notice. As long as Sammy's has it I can't think of any reason why they couldn't accomodate a special order. Once again, I would stick to whole fish and clean them yourself. Also, I have used Browne Trading Co. for the home when I cooked dinner for my sister's high school graduation last spring. The FedEx charge wasn't THAT much, maybe $8, and it arrived at my parent's house as I was stepping off the Amtrak. If there were enough interested parties, perhaps as coordinated through this website to begin, we could establish a weekly seafood order from Browne., any thoughts?

[dagordon]

If there were enough interested parties, perhaps as coordinated through this website to begin, we could establish a weekly seafood order from Browne., any thoughts?

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My thought is this sounds like a fantastic idea... I'm definitely in. Maybe at some point we can also place a group order with Lobel's for meat (although, considering their prices, weekly might be a bit much). Fish is a good start.

[matthewj]

If anyone is interested gormet magazine "produce issue" has an article that hits on what we have been chatting about.