Adventures with sodium alginate

[alanamoana]

you can't remove the plunger of the syringe and fill through that?

edited to add: you can also buy larger syringe/baster type thing and attach it to the hose, right?

Edited May 22, 2006 by alanamoana (log)

[pounce]

you can't remove the plunger of the syringe and fill through that?

edited to add:  you can also buy larger syringe/baster type thing and attach it to the hose, right?

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The way you fill it is you pull maybe 50cc's into the bare syringe (removed from the tube) then expel into the supplied dish. You then attach the syringe to the tube and to the main unit and pull the plunger which pulls the liquid into the nozzzles, but not into the body of the unit. If you pull too much liquid in you fill the body of the unit and this would be hard to clean. You then just have air in the syringe and the body of the unit, but the nozle tubes contain the liquid. You then push the air in the syringe to make 96 drops at once.

Now that I have one of these things I can see how I can improve it. I have a few different ideas for making volumes at once. One is this method and the other involves a single nozzle, but uses a small motor to oscilate the nozzle while a stream of fluid flows. The oscilation breaks the stream into equal size drops and at fast rate and hopefully distribute evenly into the calci without colliding and making odd sizes.

[Dave Weinstein]

I have my ingredients (thanks again Will!), and if not tonight, I will certainly be trying things out this weekend.

The Cherry season has just started, and I've been toying with an idea. I thought I'd toss it out and see if there is anything I'm missing that would be problematic.

Pit cherries (ideally Rainier, but they aren't in season yet).

Stuff the cherries with chocolate (or Nutella, or fudge).

Make a dessert wine/alginate mix.

Put the cherry in a large hemispherical spoon. Add the wine/alginate mix, and make an inverse cherry cordial.

Am I missing anything, or should that work?

Thanks,

--Dave

[BryanZ]

Cool idea, but you're probably going to have a hard time making the cherry stay inside the gelled wine. I'd LOVE to see pictures though.

[Dave Weinstein]

Cool idea, but you're probably going to have a hard time making the cherry stay inside the gelled wine.  I'd LOVE to see pictures though.

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So far, I'm having trouble making the wine stay inside the gelled wine, so I suspect you are right. Just means more practice!

--Dave

[BryanZ]

It's all in the wrist. Crossing your fingers sometimes helps, too.

[sazji]

Check out this image of BK onion rings. They are remarkably uniform in size.

ETA: So either 1) BK has discovered a variety of onion that grows in a perfectlycylindrical shape of consistent diameter from plant to plant, 2) is spectacularly wasteful and uses only onion slices of a given diameter  , or 3) they are extruded.

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God....why do I find that so depressing.....

[BryanZ]

I want to make some milk caviar for a soup I'm working on. I think I've heard (and it's been alluded to in this thread), that ingredients heavy in calcium need to be mixed with CaCl then dropped in an alginate bath.

Is this true? How do the proportions work? The same as if I was mixing the alginate with the milk for a CaCl bath, or do I invert them, ie pretend the CaCl is alginate in terms of proportions and vice-versa?

Please help, I have to cook for a friend I haven't seen in a year tomorrow evening.

[ASM NY]

I want to make some milk caviar for a soup I'm working on.  I think I've heard (and it's been alluded to in this thread), that ingredients heavy in calcium need to be mixed with CaCl then dropped in an alginate bath.

Is this true?  How do the proportions work?  The same as if I was mixing the alginate with the milk for a CaCl bath, or do I invert them, ie pretend the CaCl is alginate in terms of proportions and vice-versa?

Please help, I have to cook for a friend I haven't seen in a year tomorrow evening.

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Sorry if it's too late for your dinner. I don't know of what the proportion would be for milk, but in a recipe I saw in elBulli 2005 cookbook, they create mozzarella spheres, by blending fresh mozzarella cheese and some heavy cream and pouring that into the alginate bath (5g of alginate per liter of water). This is done without adding any calcium chloride whatsoever. Note, that much unlike the other sphere recipes I have seen in there, this one is left to cook longer (about 12min) but it does have a more "cheesy" texture, which might not be what you are looking for.

I would suggest you make the alginate bath and start dropping milk in there and if it doesn't work, start adding little by little the calcium chloride to the milk until it reacts. Let us know how it goes...

[Jose Andres]

TEXTURAS from the Adria Brothers is already here! Will be presented at the FANCY FOOD SHOW IN NEW YORK....Next to the first Iberico Products.......

[Jose Andres]

Cool idea, but you're probably going to have a hard time making the cherry stay inside the gelled wine.  I'd LOVE to see pictures though.

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So far, I'm having trouble making the wine stay inside the gelled wine, so I suspect you are right. Just means more practice!

--Dave

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Alcohol content in the liquid, as Acid is not good for sferification so you need to balance the PH.......

The Mozzarella sferification is, as the olive one, a reverse sferification...When a liquid has enough CaCl you dont need to add any on your own....Just the right Alginate bath will do.........Being patient on % versus time will do the job..........

[BryanZ]

If this is seriously Jose Andres, that's so awesome.

As an aside I tried to make milk/cream caviar. It was a horrible, horrible failure. I couldn't get the milk to spherize on it's own in the alginate so I dumped a bunch of CaCl into the milk and tried that with the alginate bath. Bad idea. They formed up beautifully, but I think I nearly poisoned myself with a CaCl overdose. They tasted sooooooo bad. I got close by adding just a bit of CaCl then alginating, but to get it to gel properly (granted, I was still using the short bathing time) just required too much CaCl and thus made them caviars taste bad.

I suppose next time I need to create a stronger alginate bath. Alas, I will soldier on, sacrificing health and tastebuds.

[Digijam]

As an aside I tried to make milk/cream caviar.  It was a horrible, horrible failure.  I couldn't get the milk to spherize on it's own in the alginate so I dumped a bunch of CaCl into the milk and tried that with the alginate bath.  Bad idea.  They formed up beautifully, but I think I nearly poisoned myself with a CaCl overdose.  They tasted sooooooo bad.  I got close by adding just a bit of CaCl then alginating, but to get it to gel properly (granted, I was still using the short bathing time) just required too much CaCl and thus made them caviars taste bad.

I suppose next time I need to create a stronger alginate bath.  Alas, I will soldier on, sacrificing health and tastebuds.

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Bryan - What proportion of cream/milk were you using? I've found that the initial viscosity is as crucial as the strength of the bath and the time in it - liquids like milk just seem to disperse before a skin ever has a chance to form.

When adding to a calcium bath it's not so much of a problem because the alginate has already partially thickened the mix, but when doing it in reverse I've had the most success when using either heavy cream, yoghurt, or thickening with cornflour or a roux.

Also, as Chef Andres says, it's better to start out with ingredients containing enough natural CaCl. Milk isn't really that high in calcium (115mg per 100ml) when compared to stuff like almonds (240), tahini (680), or cheese (720 for cheddar).

[Dave Weinstein]

I also found this chart when checking the pH of some items:

US FDA/CFSAN pH Chart

[BryanZ]

Bryan - What proportion of cream/milk were you using? I've found that the initial viscosity is as crucial as the strength of the bath and the time in it - liquids like milk just seem to disperse before a skin ever has a chance to form.

When adding to a calcium bath it's not so much of a problem because the alginate has already partially thickened the mix, but when doing it in reverse I've had the most success when using either heavy cream, yoghurt, or thickening with cornflour or a roux.

Also, as Chef Andres says, it's better to start out with ingredients containing enough natural CaCl. Milk isn't really that high in calcium (115mg per 100ml) when compared to stuff like almonds (240), tahini (680), or cheese (720 for cheddar).

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I'm pretty sure I was using pure half-and-half. When I would put a drop in the alginate bath it would kind of drop down, creating a small tail of milk in the bath. After settling on the bottom they wouldn't really set up and weren't even round. Should I just let them sit for longer?

Also, how do I do butter a la Chef Stupak at Alinea? I didn't mention this in my last post but I was messing around with butter, and all I got was a big greasy oil slick on top of the alginate.

Edited June 16, 2006 by BryanZ (log)

[Tonyy13]

Alright, add me to the mix of fans of this process, but I do have some questions. Becuase of my lack of science ever in my life (read: Maine public schools allow for vocational culinary classes to count for math, science, and history credits. So, I can only count to 20, am not sure who the father of our country is, and don't have a clue as to what I am doing other than following a recipe!! )

1. Does brix effect the reaction? Salinity? Viscosity of the liquid (i.e. fruit puree as opposed to fruit juice?)

2. The more the alginate, the stronger/thicker the skin, correct?

3. By adding the sodium citrate to my mix, am I lowering the ph (more acidic, right), or making the ph higher (more basic)

4. In my experiments, I found that if I let the mixture sit for an additional 24 hours, the outer shell wall was a little bit more "chewey", more rubbery, but held the liquid more firmly, allowing me to go thinner. Is the resting period helpful, or did I just have my calcium water bath too strong the second time?

5. In our experiments, we noticed that the melon caviar and the apple caviar both are too lightly flavored on their own. Do you have suggestions other than reduction of liquid to concentrate flavors? Then the question of brix applies.

Just a note: We used a squeeze bottle as well as syringes, and found that the bottle actually yielded better result becuas the spheres were actually a little bit bigger, and had more liquid inside.

Thanks for the help guys!!

[BryanZ]

Alright, add me to the mix of fans of this process, but I do have some questions.  Becuase of my lack of science ever in my life (read:  Maine public schools allow for vocational culinary classes to count for math, science, and history credits. So, I can only count to 20, am not sure who the father of our country is, and don't have a clue as to what I am doing other than following a recipe!!  )

1.  Does brix effect the reaction?  Salinity? Viscosity of the liquid (i.e. fruit puree as opposed to fruit juice?)

2.  The more the alginate, the stronger/thicker the skin, correct?

3.  By adding the sodium citrate to my mix, am I lowering the ph (more acidic, right), or making the ph higher (more basic)

4.  In my experiments, I found that if I let the mixture sit for an additional 24 hours, the outer shell wall was a little bit more "chewey", more rubbery, but held the liquid more firmly, allowing me to go thinner.  Is the resting period helpful, or did I just have my calcium water bath too strong the second time?

5. In our experiments, we noticed that the melon caviar and the apple caviar both are too lightly flavored on their own.  Do you have suggestions other than reduction of liquid to concentrate flavors?  Then the question of brix applies. 

Just a note:  We used a squeeze bottle as well as syringes, and found that the bottle actually yielded better result becuas the spheres were actually a little bit bigger, and had more liquid inside. 

Thanks for the help guys!!

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Not a professional by any means but here's what I've found.

1)Viscocity can effect how the orbs gel but I've found this be more of an issue on the "inverse." This is because when you add alginate to just about anything it thickens it. When you're putting items with CaCl into a alginate bath, sometimes they're not viscous enough to form balls in the alginated water.

2) I believe that is correct. But, like most things, I'm sure there's some sort of rule toward diminishing returns.

3) I believe adding sodium citrate or calcium citrate helps to raise the pH of the system, kind of like a buffer. I, however, have found that my source for calcic (from inside dietary supplement capsules) isn't quite water soluble. I'm still working on/thinking about this.

4) No idea. I'll probably check it out.

5) In my experiments with the melon caviar I found that it tastes best right out of the bath (ie eaten within a few minutes). Otherwise it gels too much and doesn't taste like much. Of course, raviolis, with more of the juice within the shell, will taste more strongly of the liquid.

[percyn]

Just ordered my goodies from Will Powder (am I the first web order?). Can't wait to get my hands on it (hint to Will...ship fast)

[Tonyy13]

BryanZ, thanks for the help. I was playing around this weekend, trying to make shrimp caviar using a reduction of shrimp stock, here is what I found (anyone who wants to chime in, please help! ):

Shrimp stock (shells, a few canned tomatoes, garlic, white wine, water, Old Bay [i know, I know], Anise seed, salt) reduced by half to make strong concentrated flavor.

250g. Reduced stock, 2 g. Alginate

Water bath of 2 g. CaCl with 500g. water

Found that the dripped stock mixture disolved into the water bath as if I was adding two normal liquids together.

So, I split the remaining stock mixture(200g.) by half (for a total of two bowls of 100g.), and added an additional 1g. of alginate to one of the bowls (increasing the amount of alginate in that portion by 100%). No effects. Same result.

I then make another water bath, seperate, doubling the amount of CaCl. I then used an oral syringe to drip drops into the water bath, using both the portion of stock that had the original amount of alginate in it, and also the portion with double the alginate. The original mixture saw no change. The "double-Alginate" batch formed small pearls with tails to them, but could not be strained out becuase they would break, even after 10-15 minutes of sitting in the water bath. Wondering out loud if the mixture was too basic (link here says that the pH of shrimp is 6.5-7.0), we added some cider vinegar to the double alginate batch, and found that the caviar formed into individual pearls now, but were very flat. We still couldn't strain due to the caviar breaking every time we tried to strain. We increased the vinegar in incriments, just tryign to see what the reaction would be, but never got beyond the extremely flat and un-strainable disks.

Needless to say, discouraged, we had these questions:

1. Any ideas on a type of enzyme being present in the shrimp perhaps that denatured the reaction?

2. Looking now at the ingredients in our stock, it looks like we added some pretty acidic ingredients to it, but after redux, it didn't seem too acidic, pretty balanced actually. Your thoughts?

3. Double Alginate, Double CaCl, no luck. WTF?????

Frustration is mounting, but I am gonna crack this, well, I guess maybe "we" will crack this if it kills me, I mean "us". Thanks for the help,

TA

[BryanZ]

Yeah, I royally messed up an apple demi glace sauce today. Added too much alginate and it tasted, well, too alginate-y. Could some animal protein make it more difficult to gel, possibly substantiating Tonyy's experiments? Maybe its the fat?

There seem to be a lot more questions than answers here.

[Tonyy13]

As far as fat is concerned, we made sure to remove all fat that was visible from our shrimp redux, so that's not the deal w/ my problem.

I have another question. How does one go about making olive oil or butter ravioli? is the alginate fat soluble? Wylie? Grant? Chef Cantu? Help!!

[kirbyc]

Bryan, did you use CaCl2 for your "pea" experiment last winter?

I noticed you bought it, but did you use it?

thanks

[BryanZ]

My pea experiment was done earlier this summer, not last winter. And, yeah, I used the standard calcium chloride bath.

[kirbyc]

Sorry, that may have been the dumbest question I've ever asked. What I meant was did you use the calcium citrate for the peas, not the Calcium chloride....

[BryanZ]

No, calcium citrate is (purportedly) used to increse pH of acidic solutions so that the gelling reaction may take place. I haven't used mine for that purpose yet and am afraid it's not water soluble. The only thing I have used it for is to try to add some more calcium to cream to make cream caviar. As you may have read, it didn't go too well.