Adventures with sodium alginate

[nathanm]

Alginate is used in making onion rings, as well as a number of other "structured foods". The pimento strips that come stuffed in olives are very often made this way. "Cherries" for cherry pie are made this way too - it is very common in canned cherry pie filling, or mass market cherry pies. The same is often true of other fruit pieces.

The advantage of doing it this was is perfect repeatability in size and shape. They puree the onion or fruit first, and this lets them use odds and ends and create perfect looknig results.

In these applications more alginate is used, and more time in the calcium bath. In some cases calcium is mixed in rather than allowed to diffuse in from outside.

Calcium lactate is a better source of calcium ions - you are much less likely to get a taste impact that calcium chloride.

[Kerry Beal]

My concern with all of those North American sodium citrate distributors is that none of them are marked as food grade chemicals; that means that, essentially, there is no guarantee that there isn't a contaminant that will make you sick. Of course, the Texturas stuff doesn't have that problem, so I may have to look into getting some from Europe. That said, there's plenty to experiment with even without sodium citrate; I'm going to try to experiment some more later this week.

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Jonathan,

Xenex labs carries food grade chemicals. Mine arrived yesterday. I bought 500 grams each of sodium citrate ($10 cdn), sodium alginate($44 cdn) and calcium chloride ($44 cdn). Pricing might be a bit higher if you are internet sales rather than a business customer. By the way they offer a nice variety of food grade essential oils for a very reasonable price. Valuable lesson don't buy anything labelled 'fragrance' and taste it. I was spitting violet for hours.

[alanamoana]

i can't wait to make my artificially flavored beef truffles?! hehehe...

xenex has all kinds of flavors. it would be really interesting to try some of this stuff out at home.

[BryanZ]

My quest to become the world's biggest food trend whore continues.

Water bath + vacuum machine: check

A few different types of hydrocolloids and emulsifiers: check

Transglutaminase: check

isi whipper: check

And now everything, I hope (this is getting expensive) one needs to make nifty little balls of gel.

Sodium alginate and calcium chloride a la eG's very own Will Goldfarb

Calcium citrate, supposedly for increasing pH. I got this stuff from a health food store. The capsules are supposedly openable and yield some kind of power. I wonder if the additives will prevent it from working, though. Anyone know?

And pH strips procured by my sister from my old high school

[Kerry Beal]

My quest to become the world's biggest food trend whore continues.

Water bath + vacuum machine: check

A few different types of hydrocolloids and emulsifiers: check

Transglutaminase: check

isi whipper: check

And now everything, I hope (this is getting expensive) one needs to make nifty little balls of gel.

Sodium alginate and calcium chloride a la eG's very own Will Goldfarb

Calcium citrate, supposedly for increasing pH.  I got this stuff from a health food store.  The capsules are supposedly openable and yield some kind of power.  I wonder if the additives will prevent it from working, though.  Anyone know?

And pH strips procured by my sister from my old high school

←

Bryan,

Just out of curiousity, what did you pay for the sodium alginate and calcium chloride?

[alanamoana]

i'm not bryan, but i just ordered some as well.

total cost for the two items: $19 (i believe the alginate costs 7 and the calcium chloride costs 12)

tax & shipping: $14.07 (a little bit outrageous)

fun making spheres of juicy foods: priceless

it is still cheaper than buying it from PCB (the adria brand)

but i don't know if it is cheaper than buying from a chemical supplier...however, usually with the other companies, you have to buy larger quantities of the stuff...unless you know you're going to use all that it really isn't worth it.

[tan319]

Hey bryanz!

To facilitate your quest to be one of the biggest food trend whores I just want to make sure you have your Low and High acyl gellen compounds, carrageen, I guess those are amongst your hydrocolloids, and emulsifiers.

Good luck to you, you have my best wishes and my faith , sir!!!

My quest to become the world's biggest food trend whore continues.

Water bath + vacuum machine: check

A few different types of hydrocolloids and emulsifiers: check

Transglutaminase: check

isi whipper: check

And now everything, I hope (this is getting expensive) one needs to make nifty little balls of gel.

Sodium alginate and calcium chloride a la eG's very own Will Goldfarb

Calcium citrate, supposedly for increasing pH.  I got this stuff from a health food store.  The capsules are supposedly openable and yield some kind of power.  I wonder if the additives will prevent it from working, though.  Anyone know?

And pH strips procured by my sister from my old high school

←

[pounce]

My quest to become the world's biggest food trend whore continues.

Water bath + vacuum machine: check

A few different types of hydrocolloids and emulsifiers: check

Transglutaminase: check

isi whipper: check

←

How about a PacoJet? You need one.

http://pacojet.com/

[BryanZ]

Unfortunately, fun stuff like pacojets, induction ranges, steam ovens, and things like that are for the have-(a lot)-mores. One day...

[akwa]

i'm not bryan, but i just ordered some as well.

total cost for the two items: $19 (i believe the alginate costs 7 and the calcium chloride costs 12)

tax & shipping: $14.07 (a little bit outrageous)

fun making spheres of juicy foods:  priceless

it is still cheaper than buying it from PCB (the adria brand)

but i don't know if it is cheaper than buying from a chemical supplier...however, usually with the other companies, you have to buy larger quantities of the stuff...unless you know you're going to use all that it really isn't worth it.

←

I am sorry that you are concerned with the shipping cost

The total cost of the alginate and cacl does not include tax,

the shipping is standard ground ups and rate varies based on proximity to New York City.

As I am sure you are aware, there is a reason that no one else provides this service, as it is very high cost from this end per sale. We generate no revenues from the shipping at all.

For larger orders i can drop ship and drastically reduce the shipping cost as a percentage of the order.

I am glad that people seem to be enjoying the products and look forward to expanding the product line as per the needs of the enthusiast.

Best regards

Will Goldfarb

Room 4 Dessert

Willpowder

AKWA

By the way, the website will be up soon with recipes, direct order through paypal, photos to follow.

Stay tuned.

[BryanZ]

Willpowder is such a good name. Love it.

[alanamoana]

I am sorry that you are concerned with the shipping cost

The total cost of the alginate and cacl does not include tax,

the shipping is standard ground ups and rate varies based on proximity to New York City.

As I am sure you are aware, there is a reason that no one else provides this service, as it is very high cost from this end per sale.  We generate no revenues from the shipping at all.

For larger orders i can drop ship and drastically reduce the shipping cost as a percentage of the order.

I am glad that people seem to be enjoying the products and look forward to expanding the product line as per the needs of the enthusiast.

Best regards

Will Goldfarb

Room 4 Dessert

Willpowder

AKWA

By the way, the website will be up soon with recipes, direct order through paypal, photos to follow. 

Stay tuned.

←

Trust me Will...I'm not complaining! I was the one who didn't ask for a price quote, remember? Just sticker shock!

Thanks for sending it so promptly. I can't wait to play with it a little once I finish a batch of chocolates for a friend.

I (and certainly everyone here at eGullet) appreciate your posts and the services you offer in addition to your desserts...those of us who can get to the restaurant, that is.

We're definitely tuned to the website going live.

Best,

Alana

[Kerry Beal]

I completed my first experiments this evening.

I used some Snapple peach ice tea, about 175 grams, added a bit more than 1 gram of Na Alginate. My CaCl2 solution was about 2.5 grams in 500 grams of water. I didn't have any litmus paper, so wasn't able to test the pH. I used a large plastic dropper in place of a syringe to make the caviar, and when I got bored of making drops (which didn't take long) I made a half dozen or so ravioli.

The caviar was a bit tough, the ravioli was really neat. That bite through the skin, then the explosion of liquid. I think the caviar probably spent too long in the CaCl2.

So a couple of questions. Dissolving the Na Alginate is a bit of a pain. Anyone have any thoughts on how to do it easily? I put it in a small amount of liquid initially, but it still clumped. I wonder if sprinkling it on top of the liquid then heating the liquid like you do with gelatin would work better?

What are you using to remove the caviar and ravioli from the bath and rinse if off without breaking them?

[alanamoana]

Kerry, do you need to test the pH of the Calcium Chloride solution? I thought you had to check the acidity of the mixture that you're going to "sferificate" to see whether you need to add Calcium Citrite (edited to correct to Calcium Citrate) to balance the solution? Something about the reaction between the algin and the Calcium Chloride not working very well with highly acidic liquids or with liquids that are too thick and need to be watered down. On the Texturas website, they use mango puree as an example of a liquid that needs to have Calcium Citrate added to it.

Can anyone think of other liquids that might need that?

edited to add:

Bryan, just saw the dinner thread and the darjeeling orb. Very cool. When you heated the "alginated" orb, did it affect the texture at all? In the video of the pea puree linked at the beginning of this thread (the one with Bourdain in it) they say you have to eat it very quickly or the alginate will begin to solidify the whole thing. I know it also depends on how long it is in the calcium chloride solution, but how does heat affect it?

Edited May 12, 2006 by alanamoana (log)

[BryanZ]

Snapple Iced Tea? Hmmph.

But yeah, I did something similar tonight. I followed Adria's recipe on the texturas site. But before we talk about tea, let's talk about peas.

Peas with mint, boiled and shocked.

Mmm, sodium alginate slurry

Peas, mint, alginate, and some water. Pureed then strained.

The fruits of my labor. Pea "caviar," "ravioli," "noodles." (I feel like I'm at per se with all these quotes)

For the tea, I made a sweetened darjeeling and chilled it. Made the orbs and heated them in simmering water. The heating was really cool. I served the orbs with honey, lemon zest, and a drop or two of lemon juice.

For my first time, I was very pleased with the results. Unfortunately, making these little bastards is a lot harder than they make it seem in the Decoding Ferran Adria video. Also, I found myself leaving the orbs in the CaCl bath for much longer than recommended in the recipes. 1-2 min was simply too short for large items. They weren't set and were faaarrr too fragile. 1 min is about right for the caviar, 30 seconds for the noodles. I used a, umm, fryer-scooper-outer-thing and it worked well. I also used a lot of paper towels to keep stuff dry and gunk free. I also found myself snipping at the tails of the orbs while in the CaCl bath with a pair of kitchen shears to get a more spherical appearance.

By itself, the alginate does impart a detectable taste. It reminded me of Japan (clarification: everything in Japan somehow tastes faintly of the sea and the orbs, by themselves, had that same vibe). The addition of salt, mint, lemon juice, honey, etc masked this.

So what's next? Alinea does a butter orb. How cool would it be to make a little pancake then put a butter orb on the inside, so it looks like an egg. Or perhaps a butter and syrup orb. The possibilities are endless.

[BryanZ]

Anything under pH 4 messes up the geling reaction. I tested my pH for the tea and it was about 6.5. I believe it's calcium citrate (not citrite), but please do tell me if I'm wrong.

I haven't opened mine yet since I realized I bought too much and am thinking of exchanging for a smaller size.

[Kerry Beal]

Kerry, do you need to test the pH of the Calcium Chloride solution?  I thought you had to check the acidity of the mixture that you're going to "sferificate" to see whether you need to add Calcium Citrite to balance the solution?  Something about the reaction between the algin and the Calcium Chloride not working very well with highly acidic liquids or with liquids that are too thick and need to be watered down.  On the Texturas website, they use mango puree as an example of a liquid that needs to have Calcium Citrite added to it.

Can anyone think of other liquids that might need that?

←

No you are right, I wanted it to be able to test the pH of the tea solution, I didn't think it would be less than 4, but I would have added the citrate if required. I don't know if they add citric acid to Snapple.

A lot of the fruit purees that I would sphericate would likely be low pH I suspect, eg raspberry, black current, calamansi.

So do you need to alkalize all thinned purees or just the ones that have a low pH?

[Kerry Beal]

Snapple Iced Tea? Hmmph.

But yeah, I did something similar tonight.  I followed Adria's recipe on the texturas site.  But before we talk about tea, let's talk about peas.

Peas with mint, boiled and shocked.

Mmm, sodium alginate slurry

Peas, mint, alginate, and some water.  Pureed then strained.

The fruits of my labor.  Pea "caviar," "ravioli," "noodles." (I feel like I'm at per se with all these quotes)

For the tea, I made a sweetened darjeeling and chilled it.  Made the orbs and heated them in simmering water.  The heating was really cool.  I served the orbs with honey, lemon zest, and a drop or two of lemon juice.

For my first time, I was very pleased with the results.  Unfortunately, making these little bastards is a lot harder than they make it seem in the Decoding Ferran Adria video.  Also, I found myself leaving the orbs in the CaCl bath for much longer than recommended in the recipes.  1-2 min was simply too short for large items.  They weren't set and were faaarrr too fragile.  1 min is about right for the caviar, 30 seconds for the noodles.  I used a, umm, fryer-scooper-outer-thing and it worked well.  I also used a lot of paper towels to keep stuff dry and gunk free.  I also found myself snipping at the tails of the orbs while in the CaCl bath with a pair of kitchen shears to get a more spherical appearance.

By itself, the alginate does impart a detectable taste.  It reminded me of Japan (clarification: everything in Japan somehow tastes faintly of the sea and the orbs, by themselves, had that same vibe).  The addition of salt, mint, lemon juice, honey, etc masked this.

So what's next?  Alinea does a butter orb.  How cool would it be to make a little pancake then put a butter orb on the inside, so it looks like an egg.  Or perhaps a butter and syrup orb.  The possibilities are endless.

←

Ok, so I'm totally impressed. They look marvelous.

What effect does the heating have on the orbs? Your tea spheres look very round, is the heating the reason?

Shouldn't your pea 'caviar' be called pea 'peas'?

Butter and syrup inside a pancake, can't wait to see your pictures!

[tan319]

So a couple of questions.  Dissolving the Na Alginate is a bit of a pain.  Anyone have any thoughts on how to do it easily?  I put it in a small amount of liquid initially, but it still clumped.  I wonder if sprinkling it on top of the liquid then heating the liquid like you do with gelatin would work better?

←

The way we avoided clumping was to burr mix/stick blend.

A Bruan Immersion blender from linens and things or BBB will cost about 39/45 bucks, you can use it for practically anything you need to blend, emulsify, etc.

Good Luck!

[Kerry Beal]

So a couple of questions.  Dissolving the Na Alginate is a bit of a pain.  Anyone have any thoughts on how to do it easily?  I put it in a small amount of liquid initially, but it still clumped.  I wonder if sprinkling it on top of the liquid then heating the liquid like you do with gelatin would work better?

←

The way we avoided clumping was to burr mix/stick blend.

A Bruan Immersion blender from linens and things or BBB will cost about 39/45 bucks, you can use it for practically anything you need to blend, emulsify, etc.

Good Luck!

←

Thanks Ted.

The hand mixer thought crossed my mind when I saw the clumps. I have a bamix, so I'll try that with the cutting blade next time. I do love it for making mayo in the jar, pureeing soups and the like.

Kerry

[alanamoana]

adria also mentions using burr mixer...he says to let the solution sit for a while to let the air bubbles dissipate.

[BryanZ]

I use the ol' Cuisinart stick blender to blitz just about everything.

The tea one is so round just by random chance. It was a "good" one. For each one of those I have about five mishapen tea blobs. I heated some of those and they didn't change shape at all, so I don't think heating has anything to do with it.

But, the heating thing is interesting, and I'd love for people to chime in with their opinions as to what's going on. So the first one I dropped into boiling water. Turned my back for a second and the tea had gone bubbly inside the gel and had ruptured. I'm guessing that the tea inside the gel boiled. This is thermodynamics 101 right, a build up of steam inside a closed system leads to an increase in pressure, thus causing the gel to rupture. On subsequent attempts I watched the orbs closely and had them in lightly simmering water. This was much better and yielded nice warm tea orbs.

Something I forgot to mention before is the different shaping techniques you need with liquids of various viscosities. I'm not sure if I can describe the "touch" needed for, say, the pea puree vs. the tea, but it was very different. I wish I could make perfect ones each time like in the Adria video.

Edited May 12, 2006 by BryanZ (log)

[akwa]

I use the ol' Cuisinart stick blender to blitz just about everything.

The tea one is so round just by random chance.  It was a "good" one.  For each one of those I have about five mishapen tea blobs.  I heated some of those and they didn't change shape at all, so I don't think heating has anything to do with it.

But, the heating thing is interesting, and I'd love for people to chime in with their opinions as to what's going on.  So the first one I dropped into boiling water.  Turned my back for a second and the tea had gone bubbly inside the gel and had ruptured.  I'm guessing that the tea inside the gel boiled.  This is thermodynamics 101 right, a build up of steam inside a closed system leads to an increase in pressure, thus causing the gel to rupture.  On subsequent attempts I watched the orbs closely and had them in lightly simmering water.  This was much better and yielded nice warm tea orbs.

Something I forgot to mention before is the different shaping techniques you need with liquids of various viscosities.  I'm not sure if I can describe the "touch" needed for, say, the pea puree vs. the tea, but it was very different.  I wish I could make perfect ones each time like in the Adria video.

←

from my limited experience i would definitely recommend the emulsion blender to emulsify the alginate cold, then cooked it will lose the bubbles anyway;

with regards to the temperature, perhaps a circulator just below the breaking point of the gelatin?

also, when making the spheres, if you are not very fast, then you need to follow the run of the measuring spoon;

[CheGuevara]

BryanZ,

can you tell me what vac pack machine and water bath you bought? want to see if i can find anything similar here in the UK.

thanks - and your pea experiment looks very good.

-che

[BryanZ]

BryanZ,

can you tell me what vac pack machine and water bath you bought? want to see if i can find anything similar here in the UK.

thanks - and your pea experiment looks very good.

-che

←

Pictures of my equipment and all sorts of sous vide info. can be seen here.

Edited May 12, 2006 by BryanZ (log)