Adventures with sodium alginate

[pounce]

If it tastes "just like iced tea" why not drink a glass of iced tea?  I can see the fun of playing with physics in the kitchen, but I'm having a hard time seeing how these weird science projects make the experience of good food any better.  Weirder, for sure, but better?

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It's ok if it's not your orb of tea.

[johnder]

It may taste like iced tea in flavor, but the interesting thing is the texture of it.

[Tonyy13]

Yah, been there, done that.  What I have experienced is grub-like long strands, because the boyouncy of the water bath and the viscosity of the caviar mix is not open to this method.

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Are the long grub-like things solid all the way through, or are they just encapsulated liquid? The idea of making a noodle that contains the sauce kind of effect is sort of appealing. Toss some real pasta with some en-noodled sauce and present...

Any idea if that could be accomplished?

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No, they were encapsilating liquid, just like the ravioli, but they ended up looking more like sperm to be honest, rather than noodles. I also think that they would be too delicate to "toss" with anything!

On another note, anyone see how they do the parmesan noodle at el bulli? I think it has algniate and CaCl in it or is somehow involved in teh process...

[FistFullaRoux]

Just a thought from an interested bystander:

Regarding the butter issues, do the ingredients have to be dissolved in water? Can you mix them into, say an olive oil bath? That may solve the floating issue.

Fascinating work people. Mind boggling.

[Tonyy13]

Yah, seems to me that the additives are only water soluable.

On a seperate note: anyone try using the calcium lactate that willpowder.net is selling? Will said that it all but eliminates the detectability when doing reverse spherification. It's cheap, $6 for 3 oz (84g., right?)

[BryanZ]

I'd love to hear more about what this does. Is the lactate to be used instead of calcium chloride and added to liquids before the alginate bath?

[foodite]

If I remember from the marketing video for Texturas that I saw, I believe the parmesan noodle is made by adding agar-agar to "parmesan water." No alginate or calcium involved.

[joesan]

I thought it may help to outline how el Bulli make their consomme tagliatelli. Should be the same basic technique for parmesan noodles using parmesan "water".

500g Consomme

7.5g Agar agar powder

1. Bring to the boil the consomme and agar-agar, whisked together.

2. Pour a 0.2cm layer into a 60x40cm tray.

3. Set in fridge for 3 hours minimum then cut into strips 0.5cm wide with a pastry cutter.

4. Reheat the noodles as you choose.

[JeffWIce]

Hey All...

Has anyone out there tried this process with an alcoholic base, such as making bourbon or another liquor into the "caviar" form? I would be curious to know if the chemical properties of the alcohol would cause issue with forming up...

Thanks!

[Tonyy13]

JeffWIce, welcome to the discussion. If you look upthread, we have talked sevearl times regarding this issue, and we have had some pretty conslusive advice that the alcohol interferes with teh spherificiation.

Bryan, yah, it replaces the CaCl2 in reverse spherification process. I am assuming puree w/ the food, drop into the alginate bath. Quick thinking, will this make the insides not such a gummy consistency? I don't think that the calcium salt is a thickener, is it?

Ta

[cdh]

I've played with alcoholic spheres the other evening... I succeeded in getting diluted pastis to spherify...

[cdh]

And here is a pic of some cherry caviar I've just made... I'm getting the hang of this.... but need to work on getting this more consistent.

[BryanZ]

Cherry liquor?

[cdh]

No. Just cherry juice.

[djsexyb]

ok so i just got some good stuff from WillPowder. started messing around. Caviar is really easy, i just used a melon baller (which has a tiny air hole in the back of it) as a dropper and it worked great. Not all spheres were identical, but all products were spheres and none had "tails" of any sort.

Beet Caviar with Lemon Thymne Foam

This first try was in preparration for recreating Alinea's Ver jus with Lemon Thymne and Beet, ive already gotten down the large orb production, which will reside at the bottom at the bowl, the ver jus ice is solidifying in the freezer as we speak, which will cover the beet, and the lemon thymne foam is ready, which will top it all (for those of you that have not had Alinea's dish yet.) the flavors are spot on so far, the fianl product will be photographed later tonight, pictures up tomorrow.

Note: doing the caviar in the manner described above is pretty quick and i would feel comfortable doing it during dinner service, it was that quick and consistant.

Mangos are waiting in the fridge too....

Edited August 7, 2006 by djsexyb (log)

[Chef T]

I would like to help clear up some questions on the subject of making sferifications. To start off you neeed Sodium alginate, calcium chloride, sodium citrate, a digital scale measuring at least a tenth of a gram, a regular digital scale, and a hand blender. At the minibar we use the Texturas product line by Albert and Ferran Adria. We find the quality to be exceptional. One thing i noticed in this thread is that many differnt brands of chemicals are being used to try to replicate elbulli recipes. When using another company you are going to have to change the proportions. This gets confusing after a while and you are not going to get the results you are looking for.

One problem I see is some people trying to do too much at once. Instead of learning how to make melon caviar or pea sferifications something easy they are trying to make butter sfer. or maple syrup caviar or some other flavor. Baby steps. Start off easy then gradually get get more advanced. This seems to be problem with all of these new techniques. Everybody wants to do the crazy stuff at first with out learning and doing the basics. write down all of your ideas and keep detailed notes. And when measuring out a product you need to be very precise alittle bit of this and alittle bit of that wont cut it, there is no room for error here. too much or too little and the end product wont turn out. The best way to learn how to make a sferification is to go and work/stage at restaurant that does this technique. It is not something you are going to get by just reading the instructions.

You can make a sferification out of any sort of liquid. You want to have as thin of a membrane as possible yet the bubble to be perfectly round. You dont want to feel the membrane in your mouth, you want it to almost dissolve in your mouth. You DO NOT WANT IT TO BE RUBBERY. The bath times sould be like 30 seconds for caviar and 1-2 min for the ravioli.

There are 2 techniques to doing this

1. Flavored liquid + Calcium chloride + (a thickener) : water + Alginate + sodium citrate

2. Flavored liquid + Algin + (Sodium citate sometimes) : Water + calcium chloride

Alcohol is no problem you just have to play with your proportions of calcium and algin. We did a dirty martini a year ago with a pimenton in the center. Now we are doing a carbonated mojito.

I really enjoyed reading this whole thread. I find it exciting people interested in this and playing around with the technique and I hope that I can help with any questions anybody may have. You can also go to www.texturaselbulli.com. It really gives a clear explination on the use of the products.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Chef T (log)

[johnder]

Welcome to egullet Chef_T. Awesome first post, I must say!

John

[djsexyb]

ok, the fruits of yesterday's labor....Alinea's Verjus.Lemon thyme.Beet

this worked nice, the flavors are near perfect except i think i needed to sweeten the beet juice a little more to mingle with the other flavors better.

Note: i had the black plate laying around, normally id use white; and sorry i need a better camera...

broken...

another Grand Cru recreation in the books, next Moto's Liquid Center B-Day cake...

[cdh]

Alright, now I've got an equipment/technique question.

How do you remove the spheres from the calcium bath? I've found that using a stainless steel strainer pops them... and have moved on to pouring the calcium bath through a coffee filter, which leads to lots of spheres that stick to the filter and must be very carefully wrangled or they pop. Is there a particular tool that work well for this purpose?

Next question is purely about equipment.

Droppers make pretty tiny spheres... trout roe size or smaller. I've tried a turkey baster for bigger spheres, but can't get it to drop even sized spheres. What works to make something salmon egg sized or larger? Anybody try those plastic squeezy bulbs that gets sold as aural irrigators or ear syringes?

Edited August 8, 2006 by cdh (log)

[Tonyy13]

Christopher,

The best way that I have found to remove the caviar from teh bath is to pour the bath through a small fine mesh strainer, and then dip the strainer right into a water bath of fresh water in order to rinse. As far as the ravioli are concerned, I use a fish spatula that has close lines together. I also want to get a slotted tablespoon from Williams Sonoma (once I get my tax return and inheritance and can afford to get a loan to even walk into that store! I mean, $8 for a spoon?).

I have used everything from squeeze bottles to the oral syringes to make the caviar. I like using the squeeze bottles best, but you can only do one at a time. My father and I made an el bulli style multiple syringe system (see pic upthread), but the syringes don't drop the liquid, they come out in streams, so I need to find some time to work on this more. I think the idea of using an ear dropper would work well, but I think you would want to trim the end of the bottle to increase the diameter of the hole. I have found that if the drop is formed and is no longer attatched via viscosity (sorry, can't think of a less confusing way to say that), if it is not dropped from too high a distance, they will sphere-a-size wonderfully. If you drop them from too far of a height, they will turn into flat disks. At least that is what I have found! Hope this helps.

TA

[Chef T]

To make caviar you use a 50 cc syringe. You can do it by hand but it is easier to make it with a caviar stand. You have a board on top of the syringes and you gently shake the board. It holds like 12 syringes. To change the size of the caviare you just cut the tip higher and higher. You want the caviar to be big enough to pop in your mouth. If you have a small spoon with wholes in it that is all you need to remove sferification from the bath. I will post some pictures soon of the steps. To make sferification ravioli you can use a metal measuring spoon. The reason your caviar might have a tail is because the mixture is too thick or the liquid you are dropping it into is to shallow. The best thing to do is obtain the products from texturas and you will the proper results. Too much alginate.

Edited August 9, 2006 by Chef T (log)

[djsexyb]

when i do the caviar (and the ravioli for that matter) i place a fine mesh strainer IN the CaCl2 bath. then i drop the liquid containing alginate into that area, let them set a few seconds, giggle the strainer a bit, let them fully set up and then remove the strainer containing the now formed caviar. i then gently pour them into a fresh water bath with another fine mesh strainer in it and remove the caviar, lightly dy over a paper towel and remove to my serving vessel.

as for hardware to make the caviar, i know its simple and i know ive said it before but this really works well. a melon baller! i use the small end and two spoonfulls is more than enough for one serving in a japanese soup spoon. and they are all uniform, and formed within 5-6seconds so it a good procedure for dinner service if you dont want to build unwieldy syringe contraptions...

god bless tupperware...

[Tonyy13]

DJSexyb,

Did you use beet puree or beet juice? If juice, did you reduce it at all? Did you juice raw or roasted beets? And, quickly, are you Brian from Top Chef? I know he had a private chef/catering business in Chicago?

I contacted Texturas about getting some product, so that should be on it's way in the next few weeks. Their website has the US distributer's email address wrong, so it took a few boomerang emails till I finally got it to them, but we should be in business now. I think I will compare their product to the R4D and the Chef Rubber product, and tell you guys which it looks/acts like more. I am also stoked about doing the spaghetti Parmigiano! Oh, this is going to get exciting now! Basic, but still exciting!

BTW, ChefT, is it safe to assume that I can substitute any apple juice (like apple/peach)? And how serious do I need to be about getting a pH meter if I am planning on doing this process on a regular basis? Also, I saw a picture of you at the Texturas booth at the fancy food show. Is there another source for the syringes that are used? I got some from a medical supplier, but they are too smooth of an extraction, and they shoot out the liquid too quickly in streams, not drops. Any help is of course much appreciated. Thanks!

Thanks,

Edited August 10, 2006 by Tonyy13 (log)

[Chef T]

DJSexyb,

Did you use beet puree or beet juice?  If juice, did you reduce it at all?  Did you juice raw or roasted beets?  And, quickly, are you Brian from Top Chef?  I know he had a private chef/catering business in Chicago? 

I contacted Texturas about getting some product, so that should be on it's way in the next few weeks.  Their website has the US distributer's email address wrong, so it took a few boomerang emails till I finally got it to them, but we should be in business now.  I think I will compare their product to the R4D and the Chef Rubber product, and tell you guys which it looks/acts like more.  I am also stoked about doing the spaghetti Parmigiano!  Oh, this is going to get exciting now!  Basic, but still exciting! 

BTW, ChefT, is it safe to assume that I can substitute any apple juice (like apple/peach)?  And how serious do I need to be about getting  a pH meter if I am planning on doing this process on a regular basis? Also, I saw a picture of you at the Texturas booth at the fancy food show.  Is there another source for the syringes that are used? I got some from a medical supplier, but they are too smooth of an extraction, and they shoot out the liquid too quickly in streams, not drops.  Any help is of course much appreciated.  Thanks!

Thanks,

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Each brand of apple juice is going to give you a different result. The ph is going to be different, the amount of pectin is going to be differnt the thickness is going to be differnt. Usely its best to juice the apples your self or if you prefer to pick a brand with a flavor that you like and then go from there. We don't use a ph meter at the minibar but I am sure using it cant hurt. We get our syringes from CVS. The smooth extraction is actually ideal for makeing caviar in a stand. You are never going to get a consistent size of caviar if you are doing it by hand. It is hard to apply a constant pressure. I know that a syringe stand is not a common thing in kitchens but it is ideal in the making of caviar but not neccesary. Here is something you can do you can also make caviar the size of a pearl. Making a faux pearl for an oyster. Experiment with different sized spoons or syringes. You can make a stand out of wood, 3 peices of wood as a base and some wholes so that the syringes can fit in and a extra peice of wood to put on top to shake the syringes. If you are commited to finding these products as a lot of you are and want to do it right why not make a stand. Go to home depote and have them make you a stand out of cheap wood. They will probly even drill the wholes for you just give them the diameter of the syringes. Sorry if I dont make this any easier but this isnt your typical home cooking kind of thing. good luck.

also to add regarding the spagetti parm. Which pasta version are talking about there is one that is a long single strand that you extrude through a tube that you fill with a syringe and then push out with no2 through an iSi bottle that you slurp up and is a little bit more involved requiring extra equipment and then there is the pasta that you pour onto a sheet tray let it set up and cut with a pasta cutter. I can explain both. The second one is alot more easier to do and is more practical.

Edited August 10, 2006 by Chef T (log)

[djsexyb]

DJSexyb,

Did you use beet puree or beet juice?  If juice, did you reduce it at all?  Did you juice raw or roasted beets?  And, quickly, are you Brian from Top Chef?  I know he had a private chef/catering business in Chicago? 

I contacted Texturas about getting some product, so that should be on it's way in the next few weeks.  Their website has the US distributer's email address wrong, so it took a few boomerang emails till I finally got it to them, but we should be in business now.  I think I will compare their product to the R4D and the Chef Rubber product, and tell you guys which it looks/acts like more.  I am also stoked about doing the spaghetti Parmigiano!  Oh, this is going to get exciting now!  Basic, but still exciting! 

Thanks,

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tony, first off, i have never seen that TV show, but i know that i wasnt on it! lol, so, no im not brian. the name's Michael J. Zerinskas. secondly, i used a raw beet juice that was seasoned with S+P, and a 40% simple syrup to taste. the beet sphere at Alinea had a certain sweetness to it, almost sour cherry like, mine was close but not spot on, but a little fiddling will get there.

while we're on the subject, from what i have been reading in this forum, you guys clearly dont seem to be seasoning your liquids enough prior to sphereification (sp?). i have read many ppsts where some one says, "ya looks cool but tastes just like ______." Season! thats the formost thouhgt. sphereification is an afterthought. When i first got my WillPowder materials i did a tea orb too, but seasoned with S+P, lemon zest, and steeped in peppermint. the flavor-combination was quite magical! and the shape was a bonus...$.02