Bribes to the Maitre D'

[daves]

Here's a question to those who grease:

When you pre-tip, you are essentially saying, "I'm better/busier/more important/richer/etc./choose-one-or-more-of-the-previous" than everyone else who has been waiting in line longer than I, so I deserve a table right now."

Why do you think you are better/busier/more important/richer/etc./choose-one-or-more-of-the-previous than everyone else who has been waiting in line longer than you, and why should you deserve a table before them (aside from being better, busier/more important/etc)?

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damn! I didn't know I was thinking that. Thanks for letting me know.

In any case, that's not what I'm thinking. This is: a table is probably available for $20 now, or I can wait in line for 45 minutes. What's my 45 minutes worth at this time? Of course, the going rate might be a lot higher than $20 if others' time is also valuable...

I'm probably also thinking: I can't believe that these people ahead of me had so much more free time than I have so they can show up earlier. They clearly are more lucky than I am -- and that's just not fair -- so I'm going to have to even things up with a little green. I can't believe they forced me into this situation.

On the off chance that someone can't detect sarcasm

[daves]

So whether you call it a bribe or pre-tipping, are you going to be as open to it when the gal who cuts your paycheck starts expecting a little something-something to help her remember how many hours you really did work?  Or your manager needs some encouragement to keep scheduling you? 

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Well, I'd definitely have a problem with it if management allowed it. If they did, then easy enough solution: find another place of employment because that would be the least of your problems. But let's face it: we're not discussing the payroll clerk getting a kickback. We're talking about paying the going price for prompter service, in an industry where the practice of paying extra for extra performance is quite accepted.

To clarify, what I'm objecting to is having to pay someone extra to do the routine tasks of their job.  That's why I use the perjorative term that started this thread -- bribing.  Tips are a way of showing appreciation for going that extra mile (pls note I've said earlier I object to staff being paid largely in tips).  Bribes are a desparation ploy to get the table you reserved but have watched walk-ins get, or not dent your car while they're parking it.

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But what if, just what if, it is a routine part of their job? I'd be shocked if the management of the Vegas/NYC/etc places didn't know that this was happening. Further I'd bet that they regularly sell the position as having that benefit.

If they wanted it banned, then go ahead and call it a bribe and fire them if they are caught. It wouldn't continue for long if management was serious about rooting it out and enforcing it. So I must conclude that they do support this practice. Since they can set prices within their establishment any way they see fit (or even not set it!), it can hardly be labeled perjoratively.

I'm curious about how you see this situation: how about a business dinner with potential clients: wining-and-dining the clients, hoping for their future business? Let's figure that the impatient diner with the bribe is the host in this example, and the MD is the client who is representing her organization in this transaction. If the client signs up for a deal after having been wined-and-dined, has she been bribed?

[ingridsf]

So whether you call it a bribe or pre-tipping, are you going to be as open to it when the gal who cuts your paycheck starts expecting a little something-something to help her remember how many hours you really did work?  Or your manager needs some encouragement to keep scheduling you? 

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Well, I'd definitely have a problem with it if management allowed it. If they did, then easy enough solution: find another place of employment because that would be the least of your problems. But let's face it: we're not discussing the payroll clerk getting a kickback. We're talking about paying the going price for prompter service, in an industry where the practice of paying extra for extra performance is quite accepted.

But what if, just what if, it is a routine part of their job? I'd be shocked if the management of the Vegas/NYC/etc places didn't know that this was happening. Further I'd bet that they regularly sell the position as having that benefit.

If they wanted it banned, then go ahead and call it a bribe and fire them if they are caught. It wouldn't continue for long if management was serious about rooting it out and enforcing it. So I must conclude that they do support this practice. Since they can set prices within their establishment any way they see fit (or even not set it!), it can hardly be labeled perjoratively.

I'm curious about how you see this situation: how about a business dinner with potential clients: wining-and-dining the clients, hoping for their future business? Let's figure that the impatient diner with the bribe is the host in this example, and the MD is the client who is representing her organization in this transaction. If the client signs up for a deal after having been wined-and-dined, has she been bribed?

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So it does become unacceptable and a kickback (sounds even worse than bribery)when the squeeze is put on you. Not seeing any difference in principle or process. That payroll person or manager could just as easily claim they're helping you get your paycheck more promptly or going that extra mile to make sure you're on the schedule.

I can't see how what was "routine" wouldn't then inevitably become a narrower and narrower range of job duties. And it wouldn't shock me in the slightest to learn that some management in some establishments don't care about this stuff.

Getting to know the people you're thinking of doing business with is thought to be a smart thing to do. And paying for the person you invited generally gets labeled "gracious" more than "suspicious." If the client signs solely because a $1,000 bottle of wine ended up in his trunk, yup, that's a bribe. I also think he's a lousy business person!

[rich]

It seems the above posts by people who don't want to give money to restuarant staff people, but can see other areas of doing this, refers to the "situational morality" that I mentioned about 175 posts ago.

Let's put this whole thing into perspective - we all do it at some time or another to some person at some level of business, industry, religion, education, etc. Some may feel a need to call it somehing other than a tip/bribe in those situations for ethical or moral reasons or simply to feel better about themselves. So it's referred to as a donation, gift, endowment, stipend, bonus etc.

But if we take the time to dismount the high horse and breath regular air, then we realize it's all the same thing. Heck, churches and synagogues charge for prime seating these days. I mean, the main reason religions ask its congregation for money is to guarantee us a better place in the hereafter - if that's not the ultimate tip/bribe, I don't what is. And most of us pay/give just to play it safe.

PS - I see no one has come up with the derivation of the word "bribe" yet. I'm very disappointed. Only one of the definitions mention an "unknown Romantic origin." After five years studying Latin, I can say with total confidence it's not unknown. And I think most would be quite surprised what in meant some 2000-3000 years ago. Keep searching - it will prove be a fruitful Easter Hunt (hint).

[rich]

Let's give one more example. A majority of people "contribute" to a political candidate based on the campaign promises of a candidate. This is done before the individual is elected. (Some even give to both party's candidates to play it safe - and maybe get that traffic light installed on your corner). Do you think the candidates are "bribing" us with their promises in order to get the contribution?

What happens after the person is elected? You decide.

Now that you decided, who do you trust more - the politician or the hostess/host of a restaurant? And where/who would you rather give your tip/bribe?

It's that silly glass house thing that keeps getting in the way of morals. I just hate that stuff.

Edited April 15, 2006 by rich (log)

[Sneakeater]

Isn't the term pre-tipping redundant?

If tip means to insure promptness, then what does pre-tip mean? - to send the tip ahead via FedEx?

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Tip doesn't mean "to insure promptness." That's some catch phrase someone who didn't know what they were talking about came up with, which then caught on because it's easy to remember. It has nothing to do with the definition of a "tip."

[Sneakeater]

I think the general public's understanding of tipping is that it's part of paying the bill, and that they don't even know it's an acronym.  It's the *hope* of a tip that insures the prompt service.

Somebody up-thread introduced the term "pre-tip" as a way of not using the word bribe because they thought it sounded too harsh.

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IT'S NOT AN ACRONYM. THE WORD PRE-DATED THE ACRONYM BY LIKE CENTURIES.

[rich]

PRE-DATED

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Isn't the term "pre-dated" redundant? How can you date something before you date something? It's similar to the term "pre-recorded" you hear on television. Something can't be recorded before it's recorded.

Now you can say "tip" dated the acronym by hundreds of years - that would be fine.

Still no one has come up with the derivation of bribe - I am very disappointed.

[ingridsf]

My understanding of a "bribe" is that an employee appropriates something (a good table, for example) and inserts him/herself as a collection agent between the customer and the real owner of the item -- the employer/business -- and takes clandestine payments for it. Payments the business, coworkers and our lovely government get no share of, as they do with tips in most cases. (I'm not weeping for the gov't. But if I have to declare income, so should other people.)

It would be like me, as a non-profit fundraiser, secretly bumping sponsors up a giving level because they gave me a case of wine instead of making a donation in the amount the giving level is defined as. This is NOT considered okay in my profession no matter if anyone cynically thinks we all approach our jobs in such a cold-blooded fashion.

If someone shows appreciation for being treated well, that's all to the good. I've found service staff to be mostly generous and helpful and I hope I've expressed that verbally and financially.

[ingridsf]

It seems the above posts by people who don't want to give money to restuarant staff people, but can see other areas of doing this, refers to the "situational morality" that I mentioned about 175 posts ago.

But if we take the time to dismount the high horse and breath regular air, then we realize it's all the same thing. Heck, churches and synagogues charge for prime seating these days. I mean, the main reason religions ask its congregation for money is to guarantee us a better place in the hereafter - if that's not the ultimate tip/bribe, I don't what is.  And most of us pay/give just to play it safe.

I'd much rather be in a restaurant than a church -- eternity's more comfortably contemplated on a full stomach and at least a restaurant's moment of judgement is itemized and comes with a candy or two. Yeah, corruption is a part of all institutionalized religions. Indulgences, anyone?

But is the money collected go back into the 'business" or the clergyperson? If it's going into maintenance and counseling services and salaries and, in more than a few instances, shelters and food programs, I'm confused why you have a problem with someone who gave money feeling good, reassured, about it.

Wanting to "play it safe" may simply be a cynical term for describing a perfectly ethical desire: to feel good about oneself by helping another person.

If someone gives a car to clergy on the sly and gets front-row seating as a result, yup, that's bribe and it's not good.

I'm not on a high horse and I'm not out to take money away from service workers. I've said repeatedly that although tips are a poor system for paying people, I believe in tipping well. Precisely because they're how people earn their living. But bribes are outside that system and because they are, that hostess in the article may not have to give a cut to the bus-person who cleared that fancy table she made $20 on. Or am I wrong?

[prasantrin]

Take this and a real good look at me, I am going to take care of you, so take care of me.

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That still sounds pretty self-important. "Take...a real good look at me, I am going to take care of you." What exactly do you want the person to see when they take that "real good look"? When you take care of someone, you're always in a position of power over them, and also over the other people waiting, since they can't or won't "take care" of the person as you can.

[prasantrin]

It seems the above posts by people who don't want to give money to restuarant staff people, but can see other areas of doing this, refers to the "situational morality" that I mentioned about 175 posts ago.

From another eGullet topic of the moment

"Your value system and ethics need to be constant at all times regardless of who you are dealing with."

(Steve Odland, as quoted from the article iin USAToday about CEOs and waiters)

Let's put this whole thing into perspective - we all do it at some time or another to some person at some level of business, industry, religion, education, etc. Some may feel a need to call it somehing other than a tip/bribe in those situations for ethical or moral reasons or simply to feel better about themselves. So it's referred to as a donation, gift, endowment, stipend, bonus etc.

Some of those belong in very different categories--bonuses are given based on past performances, stipends are given for services rendered, or as an allowance to be used while performing stipulated work/studies, gifts are (should) be given with no strings attached (except perhaps the expectation of a word of thanks). Endowments are not always given with the expectation of a return, and charitable donations are just that--charity. Giving a md money to give you a better table or better treatment, is a very different thing (though endowments given with the expectation of getting your children into a certain college are definitely in the same league).

I would also not use tip and bribe interchangeably here. This topic is specifically about giving money to people *before* receiving a service, in order to get preferential treatment. Tipping is done *after* receiving a service.

But if we take the time to dismount the high horse and breath regular air, then we realize it's all the same thing. Heck, churches and synagogues charge for prime seating these days. I mean, the main reason religions ask its congregation for money is to guarantee us a better place in the hereafter - if that's not the ultimate tip/bribe, I don't what is.  And most of us pay/give just to play it safe.

The main reason religions ask their congregations for money is *not* to guarantee a "better place in the hereafter." The main reason is to allow the religion to spread its teaching, help its less fortunate congregants or others of need, etc. I think most religions still expect people to live moral lives in order to get into the hereafter.

Edited to add, by "moral lives" I mean living according morals which can be ascribed to the teachings of that particular religion.

Edited April 15, 2006 by prasantrin (log)

[prasantrin]

Personally, I still find this practice a little bit smarmy, but if it works, it works.  We live in a capitalistic society and undergound economies like this are pretty much unavoidable.

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Is the US capitalistic first, democratic second?

Someone mentioned the practice in China of people giving their doctors money before surgery, and someone else mentioned countries where bribery is a daily part of life. Most of the people participating in this topic are, I believe, American. I'd like to hear more from people in other countries. I currently live in Japan, and as far as I know it doesn't happen commonly here (I'm specifically referring to giving money in order to get better service from waitstaff or others in the service industry--bribery happens here in big business here all the time). However, tipping doesn't happen here, either.

[Dignan]

PRE-DATED

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Isn't the term "pre-dated" redundant? How can you date something before you date something? It's similar to the term "pre-recorded" you hear on television. Something can't be recorded before it's recorded.

Now you can say "tip" dated the acronym by hundreds of years - that would be fine.

Still no one has come up with the derivation of bribe - I am very disappointed.

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I've looked it up enough. I'm tired of looking it up. I've looked up the latin word for bribe, and it doesn't have bearing. I suspect you will, despite the OED which I consider to be authorative, come up with some apocryhpal story about the word and Christ, given your hints, which really won't have any bearing on the incident in the review in the OP. Whatever you think the word meant once, if you can establish its derivation in Latin in the year 5, doesn't really have any meaning now. So tell us if you want and prepare for us to be underwhelmed. Then weave it into some sort of inapposite analogy.

[ingridsf]

I've looked it up enough.  I'm tired of looking it up.  I've looked up the latin word for bribe, and it doesn't have bearing.  I suspect you will, despite the OED which I consider to be authorative, come up with some apocryhpal story about the word and Christ, given your hints, which really won't have any bearing on the incident in the review in the OP.  Whatever you think the word meant once, if you can establish its derivation in Latin in the year 5, doesn't really have any meaning now.  So tell us if you want and prepare for us to be underwhelmed.  Then weave it into some sort of inapposite analogy.

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It may be hard to find as a word because the concept was viewed so differently in the past. Patronage was the rule in ancient Rome from what I understand. You pay me this, you give me that, I'll protect you. The ruling class, for example, earned no salaries because it was assumed they got their cut out all transactions in their domain. Anyway, I don't think it's a system to aspire to, nor are we as laissez-faire about bribery in general. Today, it has a perjorative cast, as is demonstrated here by the desire to twist this thread into a discussion about tipping. Which it's not.

[Dignan]

I've looked it up enough.  I'm tired of looking it up.  I've looked up the latin word for bribe, and it doesn't have bearing.  I suspect you will, despite the OED which I consider to be authorative, come up with some apocryhpal story about the word and Christ, given your hints, which really won't have any bearing on the incident in the review in the OP.  Whatever you think the word meant once, if you can establish its derivation in Latin in the year 5, doesn't really have any meaning now.  So tell us if you want and prepare for us to be underwhelmed.  Then weave it into some sort of inapposite analogy.

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It may be hard to find as a word because the concept was viewed so differently in the past. Patronage was the rule in ancient Rome from what I understand. You pay me this, you give me that, I'll protect you. The ruling class, for example, earned no salaries because it was assumed they got their cut out all transactions in their domain. Anyway, I don't think it's a system to aspire to, nor are we as laissez-faire about bribery in general. Today, it has a perjorative cast, as is demonstrated here by the desire to twist this thread into a discussion about tipping. Which it's not.

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Exactly. And salary derives from paying roman soldiers with salt, etc. Maybe true, but not very helpful in discussion about an appropriate amount for minimum wage.

[mark918]

Is the US capitalistic first, democratic second?

The economic system is capitalist, the political system is based on democracy.

[annecros]

I've looked it up enough.  I'm tired of looking it up.  I've looked up the latin word for bribe, and it doesn't have bearing.  I suspect you will, despite the OED which I consider to be authorative, come up with some apocryhpal story about the word and Christ, given your hints, which really won't have any bearing on the incident in the review in the OP.  Whatever you think the word meant once, if you can establish its derivation in Latin in the year 5, doesn't really have any meaning now.  So tell us if you want and prepare for us to be underwhelmed.  Then weave it into some sort of inapposite analogy.

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It may be hard to find as a word because the concept was viewed so differently in the past. Patronage was the rule in ancient Rome from what I understand. You pay me this, you give me that, I'll protect you. The ruling class, for example, earned no salaries because it was assumed they got their cut out all transactions in their domain. Anyway, I don't think it's a system to aspire to, nor are we as laissez-faire about bribery in general. Today, it has a perjorative cast, as is demonstrated here by the desire to twist this thread into a discussion about tipping. Which it's not.

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But, sliding the maitre d' some lettuce is tipping, is customary in certain circumstances.

Just because a perjorative term was used in the initial post for the practice, does not make it not tipping. Just by calling it a bribe, makes it no less a "gratuity."

http://www.tipping.org/tips/TipsPageRestaurant.html

http://money.cnn.com/2002/03/19/pf/saving/travel/q_tipping/

http://www.findalink.net/tippingetiquette.php

http://hotels.about.com/od/hotelsecrets/a/tipping.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping

Number One: It is voluntary. If you find tipping the captain offensive, then don't do it.

Number Two: It is appropriate according to various social situations and conditions.

Number Three: Call it a nasty name all you like, but the tip does not appear to be in danger of becoming extinct.

As far as etymology is concerned:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipping#Etymology

"The Oxford English Dictionary states that it is derived from the English thieves' slang word tip, meaning "to pass from one to another." The notion of a stock tip or racing tip is from the same slang.

Another possible source for this term is a concept from Judaism that it is a chiyuv (obligation) for a seller to "tip the scales" in favor of the customer. The Torah says, "Nosen lo girumov (Give to him a tip)." For example, if your customer has asked for three pounds of onions, you should measure out the three pounds plus one extra onion, tipping the scale in his favor [2].

An urban legend states that the word "tip" is an acronym for terms such as "to insure prompt service", "to improve performance", and "to insure promptness". However, in addition to using "insure" when "ensure" is meant, this etymology contradicts the Oxford English Dictionary [3] and is probably an example of a backronym or apronym."

Now, I will return to lurk for a time.

[NYC Mike]

Take this and a real good look at me, I am going to take care of you, so take care of me.

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That still sounds pretty self-important. "Take...a real good look at me, I am going to take care of you." What exactly do you want the person to see when they take that "real good look"? When you take care of someone, you're always in a position of power over them, and also over the other people waiting, since they can't or won't "take care" of the person as you can.

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The only reason it works at all is because most people don't do it and making it even more effective is the fact that a great many people don't even tip "ok" let alone well. A good bartender will remember the face of someone who heavy tipped and be able to pick them out at the bar 4 rows deep, that's what happens when they "take a good look", they remember.

As far as the other people waiting, I think Daniel said it up-thread perfectly about the player and the game.

[annecros]

Personally, I still find this practice a little bit smarmy, but if it works, it works.  We live in a capitalistic society and undergound economies like this are pretty much unavoidable.

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Is the US capitalistic first, democratic second?

Someone mentioned the practice in China of people giving their doctors money before surgery, and someone else mentioned countries where bribery is a daily part of life. Most of the people participating in this topic are, I believe, American. I'd like to hear more from people in other countries. I currently live in Japan, and as far as I know it doesn't happen commonly here (I'm specifically referring to giving money in order to get better service from waitstaff or others in the service industry--bribery happens here in big business here all the time). However, tipping doesn't happen here, either.

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Great question.

I do believe we are a country of good tippers.

As far as capitalist vs. democratic, if the majority practices a custom, does it not become the majority rule and very democratic?

[ingridsf]

But, sliding the maitre d' some lettuce is tipping, is customary in certain circumstances.

Just because a perjorative term was used in the initial post for the practice, does not make it not tipping. Just by calling it a bribe, makes it no less a "gratuity."

Number One: It is voluntary. If you find tipping the captain offensive, then don't do it.

Number Two: It is appropriate according to various social situations and conditions.

Number Three: Call it a nasty name all you like, but the tip does not appear to be in danger of becoming extinct.

As far as etymology is concerned:

Another possible source for this term is a concept from Judaism that it is a chiyuv (obligation) for a seller to "tip the scales" in favor of the customer. The Torah says, "Nosen lo girumov (Give to him a tip)." For example, if your customer has asked for three pounds of onions, you should measure out the three pounds plus one extra onion, tipping the scale in his favor [2].

Now, I will return to lurk for a time.

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Sorry to drag you back out of lurking but maybe you'll be the one to answer my upthread questions.

So the hostess in the article who you said was tipped, not bribed, for a table, would she be expected to add $20 to the tip-pool, if the restaurant uses that system? Would she would be held to the same standards as a server who is tipped via a credit card? Would the bus-person who cleared the table receive a share? My impression from the responses on this thread is that what has been called bribing is much more secretive and that workers don't treat this income as they do wages and tips that come after service.

IF that's the case, I don't see how it's being practiced ethically. No matter what it's called. No matter how many people do it.

Also, what's the difference in principle between a salesperson naming his/her "best price" to a customer on a coveted, limited-basis item, that's on top of the purchase price, and then pocketing the difference? "Look, keep this between you and me, but I'll give you $xx if you put my name first on the list for the Toyota hybrid." Again, maybe I'm reeaaally naive and this happens all the time. Do you think the business owner would have a hands-off attitude about it? Not the preferential treatment, but the unregulated pocketing by the employee.

Um, your Torah source reads to me like the restaurant hostess would be discounting the price of the table, not charging extra.

Edited April 16, 2006 by ingridsf (log)

[Pan]

Also -- I've got to say it -- if there were some place where I thought I had to bribe the staff to ignore the fact that they don't like the way I dress or my or my companion's ethnicity (and of course there are such places), I just wouldn't go there.

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Yep, same here. They can enjoy someone else's money.

[H. du Bois]

I'm a well-travelled New Yorker, who tips, as we are accustomed to do in American society. I try very hard to correctly follow tipping practices in other countries (was very charmed to find, in Japan, that perfect service is customary, and they do not accept tips).

In US restaurants, I tip wait staff 20%. If they've blown me away with superior service, I'll tip more. If service is poor, I'll still tip, knowing that wait staff are ill-paid. I will not, however, return there. My few truly rotten restaurant experiences were due to service-related horrors, and I wasn't the least bit sorry to see those restaurants fold.

I would never dream of bribing anyone for good service, and I would be appalled to accompany anyone who tried to do so. Implicit within the bribery system to me, is the understanding that my rights as a paying customer (e.g., the right to be seated at a table I had legitimately reserved or had waited for) are up for grabs to the highest bidder. And that is not acceptable to me at all. If I ever witnessed such an event, I wouldn't return to that restaurant either, regardless of what I thought of the cuisine.

One can call the maitre d's of fine restaurants in advance and request certain tables or special services for a select occasion, and then one can pay the staff handsomely in return for a lovely evening, which is as it should be.

But a shadow system of greasing palms in hope of better service? No, no, no, no, no.

Edited April 16, 2006 by H. du Bois (log)

[Pan]

giving the guy a buck at Katz's used to get you a sandwich that was twice as big..  nowadays everyone slips the dude a buck beforehand, so you have to give him two dollars to get the sandwich that's twice as big..

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You want a sandwich twice as big at Katz's? Do you have an army to feed?

I always tip the counterman at Katz's. I never give him money beforehand. I get excellent service and delicious sandwiches. Even in the case of countermen who don't recognize me personally.

[Pan]

[...]I'll leave aside the University situation, because that has more to do with legacy and prior relationships.  No, I guess I won't leave it aside because it dove tails in to the envelopes at Xmas idea if I understand what you mean by that -- for the mailperson, the doorperson, etc?  Correct me if I'm wrong. 

But those are different.  I wouldn't call those bribes, and I think we can show why they are not, though I may not be able to adequately distinguish them for your purposes. 

They are part of an ongoing relationship between the parties.  If I decide to give a Xmas tip to the doorpeople of my building, I don't really gain anything but goodwill.  If I don't, and the doorperson doesn't do their otherwise assigned duties when it comes to me, then they should be fired.[...]

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The operative phrase there is "should be." I get lousy if any service from my super if I don't give him a Christmas "bonus" at an amount that's rather painful to me, but I have at least some chance of getting some service or at least a friendly attitude from him if I do. Therefore, I consider it a bribe and resent it. By contrast, I bring in a half pound assortment of chocolate cookies from my local kosher bakery for my secretary at one of my jobs at the end of the Fall (and usually Spring) semester every year, not because there is any expectation that faculty shall give her gifts (as was the case at another job where there was a lousy, bitchy secretary who was rude to my students, but all faculty including adjuncts were told in no uncertain terms that $5 was expected of them for her Christmas "bonus"), and not because I will get a lousy attitude or a lack of service if I don't (I won't), but simply because she is a good secretary and makes my life easier, so I freely choose to get her something I know she appreciates in order to show my appreciation for her. That's the difference between a gift and a bribe.