are we going local?

[Pan]

"Best of" pinned threads are done on other fora. See the New York forum, for example, where an index of "best of" threads is pinned but the threads themselves are allowed to float. While you're viewing that forum, also note how the pinned threads push the active thread listing off screen for anyone who uses a 15, 17 or probably 19-inch monitor.[...]

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Not for me. There are only 6 pinned threads on the New York forum. Do you have your browser set to show only 5 topics per page? Then go into "Options" - "Board Settings" - "Number of topics to show for each forum page" and toggle the number 100, or whatever number of topics you'd like to show on a page (I have 100 set).

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You misunderstand. I didn't say the pinned topics pushed the forum (aka floating aka active) topic listing off the page but off my screen. When I visit the Montreal board these days, I can instantly see whether any new posts have been made since my last visit because the top two forum topics are visible without scrolling. On the New York board, I can't because the pinned topics have pushed the forum topics off screen.[...]

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Oh, you're right, you have to scroll down one mouse click. So be it, if you ask me. (Note: That's a personal view, not a policy statement in any way.) And now, I'll bow out, as this technical talk isn't really about going local in Montreal and Quebec.

[jamiemaw]

A very interesting discussion about a regional cuisine becoming informed and eventually defined by local products and ingredients.

My experience in Quebec City, at Laurie-Raphael and with Jean-Luc Boulay of Le Saint’Amour, was that they were very keen on local ingredients, especially from the Charlevoix growers and local cheesemakers. It was more difficult to find that pulse in Montreal, although I'm sure it was there later in the summer, but perhaps not as proudly advertised on menus.

Here, sometimes it can get a little carried away. You know that's true when you see the ingredient's mother's maiden name listed.

According to Stats Canada, Quebec restaurant and bar revenus were up 5.2% year-over-year, placing second only to Alberta at an astonishing 9.74%. A burgeoning restaurant economy bodes well for the province, and you.

[identifiler]

Jamie,

Again, I'm not sure what the topic is but would anyone seriously think that lamb in most quebec restaurants come from California or New Zealand ? Would any restau have an import magret or foie gras ??? Or a cheese ? Seriously, what Boulay and Vezina say is just about right for most respected restaurant in Quebec... Sure, some really take it a unique level (laurie). I think the effort in outskirts of Montreal (such as Quebec City and Laurentians) is just that extra "marketing" to tourist type information. Every single piece of lamb served at the Manoir Richelieu (a Fairmount entity) is grown abouy 25 km away. Almost every single piece of veggies eaten by mi kids is grown about 40 km away from me and when not, it si supplemented by a seasonal product available at most marlets and evensome times at my local IGA. The butternuts available right now are all mostly organic and local.

Sure, I agree, it's not like shopping at the ferry terminal on thursday morning at the farmer market with my American Apparel undies and my Ipod but there is a thriving local production in Quebec. The California example might be unique also because of it's close ressemblance to the european products (olive, wine). On est une grosse gagne d'habitant after all ! Not sure if San Francisconian will treat his rabiole like we do when he can skip to something with a bit more flash.

Another point about menu declination and information had gone haywire some times back, I know producers who have seen their meat in some restaurant that they never sold too. I went to Area once and the soup was made with organic calif artichokes but the artichokes served with the fish was not (really ?, was there a separate bin for them ?, does growing an artichoke really need any kind of pesticide ? If you grow them you will know that it most of them are organic but a lot are not certified and that Calif peninsula weather is mostly the only place where they grow twice in a season, almost always without pesticides).

I have always been an ASC member, my farmer is not a Daigneau super star but the carrots, tomatoes and salads, etc... are as tasty ! (and so are mine). Right now, there is 25 farms delivering in downtown montreal. I never really know what I get but I can predict after all the years, it is also a bitching way to force your kitchen into market like cooking and has the kids eating a complete collection of veggies.

Here is the link:

http://www.equiterre.org/agriculture/panie...listeFermes.php

http://www.d3pierres.com/content.asp?node=49

http://fermecadetroussel.cam.org/paniers.html

http://www.fermetournesol.qc.ca/library/TS..._et_form_06.pdf

http://www.fermeduzephyr.com/fr/basket.php

Birds and meat

http://www.fermedespres.com/

http://www.fermelecrepuscule.com/listefromagefr.html

There's tons of example. Then there's the list of terroir products, which is different in my view, if you want I can list them down by region.

[Venusia]

Identifiler,

What do you know of Ferme Tournesol? I believe this year was their first year, and I was tempted, because their pickup location in Beaconsfield was one block away from my house. I ended up going with Zephyr again, because I thought his variety might be larger, but I'm not doing the CSA basket again next year.

I don't really care if my vegetables are organic or not, and I was sometimes irritated by the repeated pleas for weeding help. Organic farming is so labour-intensive and seems a throwback to an earlier age. What I liked about it was that the veggies were freshly picked, but I would have welcomed pesticides and fertilizers for improved yields.

I wish I'd gotten lots of carrots, tomatoes, salads, like you, and also cucombers, artichokes, zucchini flowers, broccoli, corn, eggplant and peas. Mostly, it seemed like the basket was full of onions, garlic, potatoes, beets, turnips, cabbage, kohlrabi and radishes.

I've never been big on vegetables, and that was my original impetus to sign up with a CSA farm in the first place. While I went through all the recipes in the Chez Panisse Vegetables cookbook the first year, in subsequent seasons everything that was not quick and easy to prepare tended to stay at the back of the refrigerator where it... rotted away.

Now I'd rather go to the market and buy a lot of the vegetables that I love, rather than force myself to eat a variety of veggies I'm at most, tepid about, and at worst, require lots of cooking to be palatable.

[ap jow]

Well I was worried there for a second, I thought that this topic was going to turn into a how to use my computer debate. but I'm glad to see the discussion went back on topic.

Now I've worked at Area, and yes they would have 2 bins seperating the local products and the imports. Ian was, in the time that I worked for him, very careful to buy from local farmers, and he even had a farmer bringing fresh root vegetables and many herbs that we had no idea of how to go about using them, but we did, we read up on them, learnt about them, and used them, of course it takes time to understand many things that are new to us, but unfortunately that's what it takes to make them the "norm".

Quebec has many products to offer that most people won't think twice about buying. but the fact is that it is more expensive, we don't have a long growing season, animals need to feed in the winter, they don't have the luxury of eating grass all year round. So it's understandable that alot of the population will go to loblaws, or IGA. But in the end it's about informing the customers that pesticides, and other chemicals will go into our bodies. yes it looks like a tomato, but don't you think it looks a little too much like a tomato. Anyone who has grown vegetables will know that they all don't look the same, but they taste like what it's supposed to be, and I'd love to see the stats on their nutritional value.

British Columbia has EAT magazine, which is a free journal on local restaurants, markets, food, farms, and everything related. I remember montreal had one that didn't last very long(I wonder why). We're still behind, but at least we're talking about it, and before you know it we will catch up.

[jamiemaw]

Thanks for these very thoughful additions to this discussion identifiler, Venusia and ap jow--I found them very interesting.

The original question "Are we going local?" might suggest something beyond the use of regional ingredients. As I mentioned upthread, the use of those unique ingredients can begin to inform, then define a unique regional cuisine.

Do you see that happening? A cuisine where you can close your eyes and say: "Voila! I could only be eating here." Obviously, this development is promoted by the collaboration of farmer and chef. And then, when the new generation arrives, through the instigation of chefs actually born in the region.

As a counterpoint, and despite the abundance of new restaurants that have opened in Toronto in the past five years, my colleagues there report no identifiable regional cuisine. The same can be said for many other Canadian centres, except for the late summer, when native product is more abundant.

I look forward to your responses,

Jamie

[sf&m]

1. Jamie, I wonder if we are still too early for new regional cuisines? Right now it seems to me we're still in "repair and restore" mode, with regional specialized small farm producers returning and finding markets with innovative chefs and public farmers markets. If regional Cuisines reemerge they will not be based on isolation and necessity of old days but on new creative ways of featuring regional products AND gastronomical traditions. The STAR chef that creates a new quisine? Not that we should limit creativity of new chefs and restos by requiring a litmus test of regionality. Let that happen organically. But the movement needs publicity and marketing and ultimately probably legal protection - as in "AOC" and "DOC" designations - to be economically viable and reach a bigger audience. We could actually be quite far along the way in terms of this "infra structure" development so it's only a matter of time... I hope.

BTW: ANy sign of food regional foods associated with BC vineyards and wine culture? Regioanality being a cornerstone of viticulture...

2. Identifier, great exiting regional information.... let's make sure it does not get buried.

I don't think California has got that much on Quebec. We have seasons there too... Read "Honey from a Weed" by Patience Gray to understand traditional Mediterranean winter foods.... I spend my SF Saturdays at the SF Ferry Plaza Market and unless you're a total yuppie, I think JTM holds is own ANY DAY of the year..... 10+ kinds of apples (that tastes like apples), superior berries in season, duck, pintade, chevaline.....even peaches for chris's sake... I'll take ON peaches in season any day.... not to speak of QC cheeses - leaves California in the dust. That's what has exited me so much about Quebec.

And what about the traditional winter foods, the Confits, the Hams, the Salamis, The salt and dried fish....THE CHEESE.... . ALL are candidates for regional excellent foods.

Forget about what QC don't have and concentrate on what it does have which is a Distinct Culture in North America.

3. Ap Jow, I am so greatful you started this thread. Sorry if I hijacked it with technial blarny... But I think these subjects and the distinction of QC food and culture needs a wider audience so I do think it's important it's prominently featured on what is after all a REGIONAL food forum. For the benefit of VISITORS.

I've been wanting to see a thread on QC Cheese and other products for a long time. No sense in carrying the "sticky thread" argument any longer...that can be done any time. This thread is great for the discussion you started but I will start a new thread on QC cheese to see if I can learn something more and gather more information about this QC product success.

Hopefully other QC product specific threads will follow.

[carswell]

And what about the traditional winter foods, the Confits, the Hams, the Salamis, The salt and dried fish....THE CHEESE.... . ALL are candidates for regional excellent foods.

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As I believe you've been told before (maybe in the heated deleted Uighur subthread), confit is not a traditional Quebec food. Back in the '70s, it was rarely seen on menus and even more rarely in shops. And when you did see it in shops, it was usually in a can and imported from France. If local, it was made from inferior (for the purpose) pekin ducks, as foie gras production and hence moulard ducks were non-existent. Same thing goes for salt and dried fish; there may have been instances of these in the regions but use wasn't widespread and they were rarely found in non-ethnic stores. Hams have been around for a while, of course, but it's only recently that I've become aware of a local ham culture, and that's due mainly to restos like APDC, not charcuteries and boucheries, let alone supermarkets. While I applaud your enthusiasm for local products and even share it for some, I'm mystified by your fuzzy, rosy view that appears to embrace Western European and specifically French French ethnic products like confit and salt cod as Quebec traditions while rejecting other ethnicities; at one point or another you have knocked local Asian restos as a category and argued for banning ethnic cookbooks from Jean Talon Market and you never mention, say, Asian vegetables when extolling the virtues of locally grown produce. (By the way, are Ontario peaches really local? If so, are Finger Lakes wines? The superb Pennsylvania peaches I sometimes find in Vermont and upstate NY?) I know for a fact it's not because you have something against Asian cuisines. What gives?

I do think it's important it's prominently featured on what is after all a REGIONAL food forum.

That's a bit more reasonable than your upthread line to the effect that the goal of this board is to promote local foods. Still, where do we draw the line between coverage of local food and boosterism? (I'm strongly in favour of the former, really allergic to the latter.) Another way to phrase that question might be this: In your Quebec wine thread, would there be room for comments like "All Quebec red wines are dreck"?

For the benefit of VISITORS.

In a phrase, you've enunciated the biggest problem with Chowhound's Montreal board: it's mainly for the benefit of visitors. The strength of eG's MQ&EC forum is that it's mainly for and by locals, and a pretty informed and enthusiastic bunch of locals at that. Visitors benefit from the collective knowledge displayed here, of course, and are usually welcomed and assisted, but they're hardly the focus, and that's a good thing.

I've been wanting to see a thread on QC Cheese and other products for a long time. No sense in carrying the "sticky thread" argument any longer...that can be done any time. This thread is great for the discussion you started but I will start a new thread on QC cheese to see if I can learn something more and gather more information about this QC product success.

Here's another bit from the reply I never got around to posting:

"While I appreciate your point about topics dropping below the fold, I'm left with a big question: Why should we give pride of place to a discussion that can't sustain itself without life support? If the topic has legs, it will stay at or near the top of the listing. Look at the Best Coffee, SAQ, Dispatches and Havre aux Glaces threads, which have consistently floated high since they were started. Some of them have over 10,000 views. They aren't getting drowned out by white noise.

"You propose we give sticky topics a try. Here's a counter proposal: start threads devoted to Quebec-made alcoholic beverages, Quebec-grown produce and meat/fish/shellfish, Quebec cheeses, and eateries/markets that feature Quebec products. (Believe it or not, I agree they're threads we should have and I'll do what I can to support them.) The number of posts and views they receive will soon give a clear indication of how much news there is to report, how much work people are willing to do to report it and how much interest there is in reading about and discussing it."

Just do it.

Edited December 6, 2005 by carswell (log)

[ap jow]

The point of all this is not to alienate any particular cuisine(asian or any other) as you might have implied, but rather to expand on it. Cuisine as we've learnt from our mothers, grandmothers, and now the superstar chefs is cooking is regional. What these innovators did was adapt to their local ingredients to supply future generations with the food we know and love. So maybe a confit is not native to quebec , nor is cheese, but through the years we've learnt to adapt to the climate change and geographics, and many dedicated farmers have through trial and error made these things work here. Now for asian ingredients their are many farms, some in quebec, but mostly in parts of BC who specialize in asian vegetables like wasabi, edimame, ginger and so on. I don't think that many people are opposed to buy within the country(although it's probably more expensive for some reason), but the fact is that unless your a top restaurant like the ones mentioned earlier your not going to go out and get them. there is little access and unless we as food industry workers or foodies(which I'm assuming most of you are), go out and inform the people and co-workers we know, there will be little change. Unfortunately I'm not aware of all the statistics that some of you have brought to the table but I've appreciated all the information I've received, and therefore have become even more aware of my surroundings.

p.s jaimie, I thinkg tipping should be abolished or at least a percentage should go to the kitchen, I know that's how it's like in BC, but not here.

[ap jow]

sf&m I agree with you 100%, on having a heading for quebec cheeses, speaking of which I bought a fantastic sheeps cheese, I beleive its called bercail, from a vendor at Jean Talon market who is only there on the weekends. I think the farms called la moutonniere, really worth it to check it out if you haven't already.

I have to say that our cheese really is a success story, our variety and quality can only make me think of our cheese ancestors in italy, france, and switzerland. we really have come along way to make such a fantastic product. I'd really appreciate any highlights and info you may have.

[sf&m]

No, don't recall having tried that one.... but I think I know where their stand is at JTM....

La Moutonnière is located in Sainte-Helene-de-Chester in Bois-Franc

Look, I am no QC Cheese expert.... I just know what I like... Hopefully if we start up a thread we can learn a bunch from the real experts.

BTW:

IF you don't have it - get this amazing book... The "Bible of QC Cheese"...

"Répertoire des Fromages du Quebec"

By Richard Bizier and Roch Nadeau.

Available at Libraire Gourmand at JTM

/gth

[-sheila mooney]

No, don't recall having tried that one.... but I think I know where their  stand is at JTM....

La Moutonnière is located in Sainte-Helene-de-Chester in Bois-Franc

Look, I am no QC Cheese expert.... I just know what I like... Hopefully if we start up a thread we can learn a bunch from the real experts.

BTW:

IF you don't have it - get this amazing book... The "Bible of QC Cheese"...

"Répertoire des Fromages du Quebec"

By Richard Bizier and Roch Nadeau.

Available at Libraire Gourmand at JTM

/gth

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quebec cheeses... got 2 words for you: kenogami. and grand manitou. ok 3 words, so sue me. what lovely things you have here. enough to make one forget new jersey peaches...

[freddychef]

Funny how we all interpret `local support`.....as a far east coaster I have admired the ways in which Quebec chefs, culinary professionals, those that dig in the dirt and everyone else DO SUPPORT local food initiatives. Of course I say this being from outside that province (remembering that this forum is soley not quebec based) and applaud the effort. Not only is it about local produce but also local publications, discussions, trades, etc...

In EASTERN CANADA,. we have a far harder time supporting local food production initiatives for various reasons and I guess it is just a comparable endeavour. The weather, smaller markets, export mentality--historically based-- FOR WHAT DOES COME OUT OF HERE IN QTY..a few reasons why....pat yourselves on the back for the effort....freddychef

one lamb down...