Vacherin in Paris

[robyn]

I usually order some cheese from France about this time of year - and I always order a Vacherin Mont D'Or. Isn't on my favorite cheese site now - or on any other cheese site I've looked at. Am I a bit too late in ordering this seasonal cheese - is it sold out - or did something else happen to it? It's one of my favorites - and I'm sad that I can't find it. Robyn

[zeitoun]

I usually order some cheese from France about this time of year - and I always order a Vacherin Mont D'Or.  Isn't on my favorite cheese site now - or on any other cheese site I've looked at.  Am I a bit too late in ordering this seasonal cheese - is it sold out - or did something else happen to it?  It's one of my favorites - and I'm sad that I can't find it.  Robyn

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I am as sad as you are, my "fromager" told me a few days ago that the FDA no longer allows the import of vacherin across US borders. I do not rememeber why, or may be he did say why and i was so in shock that my ears went numb for a second.

This is not cool

[robyn]

I usually order some cheese from France about this time of year - and I always order a Vacherin Mont D'Or.  Isn't on my favorite cheese site now - or on any other cheese site I've looked at.  Am I a bit too late in ordering this seasonal cheese - is it sold out - or did something else happen to it?  It's one of my favorites - and I'm sad that I can't find it.  Robyn

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I am as sad as you are, my "fromager" told me a few days ago that the FDA no longer allows the import of vacherin across US borders. I do not rememeber why, or may be he did say why and i was so in shock that my ears went numb for a second.

This is not cool

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Took a quick look - and it's a "raw milk" "possible listeria" thing. The rules have been on the books for a long time - but the FDA has started to enforce them more vigorously. Robyn

[zeitoun]

Took a quick look - and it's a "raw milk" "possible listeria" thing.  The rules have been on the books for a long time - but the FDA has started to enforce them more vigorously.  Robyn

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What a bummer.

[Hest88]

Oh darn. I just saw a few wheels about a month ago but since we had other dinner plans decided to pass them up. Now I wish we'd scrapped our dinner plans!

[John Talbott]

I usually order some cheese from France about this time of year - and I always order a Vacherin Mont D'Or.    Robyn

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This probably goes in the or unnecessary/unfair/roughness file, but we had a Vacherin Mont d'Or from Alleose yesterday and today and it was splendid. Shame on the FDA.

Edited January 2, 2005 by John Talbott (log)

[culinary bear]

This probably goes in the or unecessary unfair/roughness file, but we had a Vacherin Mont d'Or from Alleose yesterday and today and it was splendid.  Shame on the FDA.

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The FDA do seem unneccesarily strict.

A friend of mine was 'caught' with a half-pound of stilton at JFK airport and ate it as an alternative to throwing it away. The immigration officials thought he was quite, quite mad.

Having said that, Humphrey Errington in Scotland had a huge fight on his hands with his Lanark Blue and Dunsyre Blue cheeses, when the local council condemned all his maturing stock on the basis there was a 'chance' of Listeria monocytogenes infection.

The rallying cry of 'Safety First!' does not inspire the enjoyment of the best food has to offer.

[John Talbott]

The FDA do seem unneccesarily strict.

The rallying cry of 'Safety First!' does not inspire the enjoyment of the best food has to offer.

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I cannot recall the thread - but we've had this discussion before. The rule about cheese(s) is unevenly applied in American airports and clearly in need of a relook. Unfortunately, as another "mad scientist," I'm aware that the FDA has bigger fish to fry these days than cheese/listeria.

[Suzi Edwards]

Perhaps you can answer a query about Vacherin Mont D'Or for me. While perusing a cheese board recently I pointed to what I thought was a VM'O and asked for some only to be told that "That's not Vacherin Mont D'Or. It's Mont D'Or. They are two completely different cheeses"

I was a bit stunned. Not only by potentially not being right :-p but because the waiter was so rude! Who's right?

[culinary bear]

He was, but he was nit-picking horrendously.

Vacherin Mont d'Or is made from pasteurised milk from the Swiss side of the Jura Mountains.

Mont d'Or is made from raw milk from the French side of the same mountain range.

Both are winter cheeses; the summer milk from the same cows (not as rich) is used to make gruyere.

To say they're 'two completely different cheeses' is perhaps overstating the case.

I defy him to identify the difference in a blind test.

[Suzi Edwards]

His exact words were that they were "two completely different cheeses that taste completely different"

Snotty nosed little pig.

Luckily the Mont D'Or was delicious. Thanks for the clarification Allan.

[Bux]

In fact the names seem to have been used interchangeably on both sides of the border. From the Cheese of the Month Club site and sadly under the heading of Banned in the USA:

"Both the French and Swiss have been making Vacherin Mont d'Or since the eighteenth century. Vacherin Mont d'Or is named for a mountain in the Jura which startles the Swiss/French border. Although most of the Mont d'Or region of the Alps lies in France, both countries called their cheese Vacherin Mont d'Or until 1973. Then, to the outrage of the French, the Swiss quietly arranged to commandeer exclusive legal rights to the name. The French responded with incredible restraint, and today French Vacherin Mont d'or is either labeled Le Mont d'or or Vacherin du Haut-Doubs."

There's more at that link regarding listeriosis and about a Faux Vacherin -- Edel de Cleron -- made in France from pasteurized milk. The facts seem to suggest that one should be able to buy Swiss Vacherin Mont d'Or in the US. I'd also allow a cheesemonger or waiter to suggest that a cheese made from raw milk is quite different from one made from pasturized milk, but only if he wasn't rude. Of course, it could be said that every individual cheese, like every bottle of wine is different from its brothers, even those in the same case. I don't think that's what he meant.

[robyn]

I usually order some cheese from France about this time of year - and I always order a Vacherin Mont D'Or.    Robyn

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This probably goes in the or unnecessary/unfair/roughness file, but we had a Vacherin Mont d'Or from Alleose yesterday and today and it was splendid. Shame on the FDA.

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I didn't exactly suffer. We had a wonderful Epoisses (bought locally) - and are eating the last of it tonight. There's only so much cheese a few people can eat (just had 2 friends over for New Year's). And I had Fritos too . We have a funny tradition on New Year's. We eat all the sinful food we don't eat the rest of the year (and Fritos - with its excess of salt and fat - is the ultimate sin food - even more sinful than cheese).

Still - I will miss the Vacherin and I'll have to remember to eat it when we're out of the US in the late fall/winter. Robyn

[culinary bear]

I didn't exactly suffer.  We had a wonderful Epoisses (bought locally) - and are eating the last of it tonight.  There's only so much cheese a few people can eat (just had 2 friends over for New Year's).  And I had Fritos too  .  We have a funny tradition on New Year's.  We eat all the sinful food we don't eat the rest of the year (and Fritos - with its excess of salt and fat - is the ultimate sin food - even more sinful than cheese).

I have a real thing for washed-rind cheeses at the moment; it's a style a lot of UK and Ireland cheesemakers are adopting, with startlingly good results.

England's Stinking Bishop is good, as is Scotland's Bishop Kennedy. The Irish seem to have a knack for it, as their Milleens and Durrus cheeses are superb. Milleens smells like yeast extract, and Durrus, to be frank, smells like a sewage works, but both taste meaty and ripe.

[robyn]

Have to smile when you talk about the smell. Until this year - I couldn't buy Epoisses locally. Had it shipped by overnight Fedex (usually with some other equally fragrant cheeses). And when the Fedex guy came to our door - he would always say "sheesh - what the heck is in that box"? I can only imagine what the Fedex plane smelled like! Robyn

[raisab]

I still don't understand how a cheese like Stilton would be confiscated at JFK. I bring in all cheeses all the time! Is Stilton a raw milk cheese? Even so, isn't it raw milk cheese that is under a certain age that is prohibited?

I am blessed that I am able to bring back so many stinky cheeses! In fact I hand my cooler to the customs guys and tell them open it up and take a whiff baby! MOst of them just say no thank you, have a good day!

John is Vacherin still available this week? I haven't ever had it believe it or not!

Edited January 3, 2005 by raisab (log)

[John Talbott]

John is Vacherin still available this week? I haven't ever had it believe it or not!

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I bought my "Mont D'Or," Les Monts de Joux, 25560 Bannans at Alleose on Thursday December 30th and there were at least 20 more there.

Vacherin Mont d'Or is made from pasteurised milk from the Swiss side of the Jura Mountains.

Mont d'Or is made from raw milk from the French side of the same mountain range.

Both are winter cheeses; the summer milk from the same cows (not as rich) is used to make gruyere.

As for the difference between the two, my ancien fromager, now retired, used to use the terms for French Mont D'Or and Vacherin Mont d'Or interchangably; purists might say he was misinformed, inexact or too old, but he was my source for years.

[Ptipois]

His exact words were that they were "two completely different cheeses that taste completely different"

Snotty nosed little pig.

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I think I can see where his confusion comes from: there are, on one hand, mont-d'or on the French side of the Jura (officially called "mont-d'or" or "vacherin du Haut-Doubs") and vacherin mont-d'or on the Swiss side of the Jura. And these two cheeses are just like Bux describes them, i.e. very similar, I'd say almost identical.

And there is, on the other hand, "vacherin suisse" or vacherin fribourgeois (made in the Fribourg region) which is a hard Swiss cheese of the gruyère type, very good for making fondue.

He probably does not know that there were three types of vacherin, and that the Jura alone had two of them, that are nearly identical. The remaining one, indeed, is totally different. You can stuff the news down his mouth next time you see him.

Edited January 3, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Suzi Edwards]

England's Stinking Bishop is good, as is Scotland's Bishop Kennedy.  The Irish seem to have a knack for it, as their Milleens and Durrus cheeses are superb.  Milleens smells like yeast extract, and Durrus, to be frank, smells like a sewage works, but both taste meaty and ripe.

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I had some fantastic Ardrahan from Cork (via Neal's Yard) for Christmas. It was incredible, meaty like you say, creamy and with a real bite to it. I think that's another washed rind to add to the list.

[robyn]

I still don't understand how a cheese like Stilton would be confiscated at JFK. I bring in all cheeses all the time! Is Stilton a raw milk cheese? Even so, isn't it raw milk cheese that is under a certain age that is prohibited?

I am blessed that I am able to bring back so many stinky cheeses! In fact I hand my cooler to the customs guys and tell them open it up and take a whiff baby! MOst of them just say no thank you, have a good day!

John is Vacherin still available this week? I haven't ever had it believe it or not!

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I assume Stilton is ok since I can buy it locally in Florida.

Perhaps there are airports in the US that are more sensitive to contraband food imports than others. Here in Florida - we usually encounter food/drug sniffing dogs going through customs (contraband food imports of various kinds - like fruit - represent a potential problem for local agriculture). On my part - going through airport security - much less customs - isn't exactly an "isn't this fun smell my cheese" kind of experience these days. So I follow the rule - "when in doubt - leave it out (of my luggage)". I can't carry my pocket knife - my cuticle scissors - my cigarette lighter (effective 1/1) - or even my Coffeemate . The last looks like explosive powder in x-ray machines. Robyn

[Poppy Quince]

At my local cheese shop today I asked for Vacherin Mont d'Or, which I had bought there in early December. I was told they couldn't get it anymore, so I assume this is a recent ruling by the powers-that-be. I mentioned the Swiss/pasturized vs. French/unpasturized distinction drawn in this thread and he said they'd look into it. We'll see.

I was relieved, but confused, to learn that they can still get Epoisses, which they said was pasturized to be imported into the US, while remaining unpasturized for domestic comsumption in France. Can this be true, I wonder?

Anyway, I came home with a lovely Italian cheese called Rochetta, and a piece of Tomme Crayeuse.

[culinary bear]

I assume Stilton is ok since I can buy it locally in Florida.

They probably have an import license. Customs seem to have something against the recreational cheese-bringer.

I can't carry my pocket knife - my cuticle scissors - my cigarette lighter (effective 1/1) - or even my Coffeemate .  The last looks like explosive powder in x-ray machines.  Robyn

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I've travelled, post 9/11, with a full case of knives. The only stipulation was that I had to have them in the hold.

[Bux]

Knives in the hold are not likely to be a problem. Explosive powder on the other hand, may well be a problem. It's been my experience that licensed importers have a harder time with raw milk cheese than individuals. Things may be changing since the time Steingarten wrote about the subject in Vogue, but his experience was similar to mine. The government feels it has a different responsibility towards the importation of food stuff for sale to the public, than to worry about an individual eating one more portion of the same stuff he's been eating for the last week. The concern about cheese is in regard to the possibility of listeriosis which will affect the eater. The concern about meats is not in regard to the consumer of the meat who may or may not get sick or die, but of the small chance a disease that will affect livestock be spread. It's not so much the percent of risk but the potential damage.

Listeriosis is not confined to raw milk or raw milk products. It can contaminate all cheese, especially soft fresh cheese. It can also be a problem in deli meats, (charcuterie to us) smoked fish and other products. Frequently pregnant women are advised to avoid many of these products. The odds of contamination are small, but the risk to a fetus, older people or those with an immune deficiency are most at risk. Pasteurization will kill the bacteria at the source, but the risk of contamination is there at all stages before the cheese is eaten and we've had outbreaks of listeriosis traced to pasteurized milk cheese in the US. For all I know, we've had a greater problem with pasteurized milk cheese than the French have had with raw milk cheese, but it's much easier for the FDA to hide behind easy to pass regulations than hard to enforce standards of cleanliness at the source, especially in a land where most "cheese" is factory produced with little love or care and where a single product could affect hundreds if not thousands before it's recalled.

Much has been said and written about raw milk Epoisses, some of it in this forum, and I've not got a photographic memory, but the gist that sticks in my mind is that Epoisse was made from raw milk by small producers. A relatively large producer set up shop in the area using milk imported from outside the region, but applied for, and was given, permission to use the AOC Epoisses over the protests of the artisanal producers. There was an outbreak of listeriosis eventually traced to this industrial producer and sales of everyone's Epoisses fell off tremendously. I don't know if by law, or by agreement, all of the producers started to cook the milk. They could just not afford another incident. Safety became a concern greater than quality. I said they "cook" the milk. There are temperatures below that of pasteurization that will remove most of the risk from bacteria. These cheeses are neither from pasteurized milk, nor what we think of as raw milk, but technically they meet some legal definitions of raw milk for better of worse. Most of this was covered some time ago in an article in Ed Behr's the Art of Eating. Berthaut was the producer whose view was most heard in the article. If I recall correctly, there was an implication that truly raw Epoisses might be coming back.

[robyn]

Bux - I disagree with the implication that artisan products made with "love" are somehow immune to listeriosis or similar problems. The biggest listeria problem I can recall in the US in recent years is the one with D'Artagnan (which is an excellent company in my opinion). It's in the nature of the foodstuff. Some things are more susceptible to problems than others. Robyn

[Bux]

Bux - I disagree with the implication that artisan products made with "love" are somehow immune to listeriosis or similar problems.  The biggest listeria problem I can recall in the US in recent years is the one with D'Artagnan (which is an excellent company in my opinion).  It's in the nature of the foodstuff.  Some things are more susceptible to problems than others.  Robyn

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You may disagree with the implication that artisanal products made with "love," but that's not what I implied. From my point of view, they are made with care by professional craftsman. Love of what you are doing doesn't make you an artisan. Pride has something to do with it, but skill is what makes a person an artisan. The factory producer is the one more likely to cut corners for profit. The larger the scale of operation the greater the incentive to save a few cents on each cheese. There is no question that pasteurization will kill bacteria in contaminated milk. There's no question that it's much more expensive to keep the milk free from contamination. Raw milk cheeses are therefor likely to be more expensive.

The problem as I've said is that both the milk and the cheese can become re-infected or contaminated after pasteurization.

I've located the Fall 2001 issue of the Art of Eating. Although Jean Berthaut's father made raw milk Epoisses, Jean no longer did. His milk is heated below the point of pasteurization for the French market and pasteurized for the American market according to Ed Behr. In 2001, Jean hoped to make raw milk Epoisses again. Perhaps he does, or will. Epoisses was an old cheese that was no longer made when it became more economical for the dairy farmers to sell the milk. Jean's father, according to Behr, made the cheese he remembered from his childhood. It was the Berthauts who applied for the AOC and it was granted in 1981. That same year a new producer came to town, set up his fromagerie and was granted the right to use the AOC. It was only later that it was revealed that he was using milk from outside the approved zone. On the same day that the court decreed this new producer could no longer use the AOC label, it was announced that two cases of listeriosis were traced to the interloper. Two deaths were attributed to Epoisses cheese, although in fact the courts had just decided that the fatal cheese was in fact no entitled to be called Epoisses. It was never determined if the contaminated cheese was made from raw milk or pasteurized milk, but the effect of the attention and pressure was enough to cause Jean and many of the others, I assume, to cook their milk. It's also interesting to note that the red rind which imparts the flavor came from a wild red mold in the air. With greater attention to cleanliness, that mold now has to be artificially introduced from molds that have to be bought by the cheesemaker. Undoubtedly, contemporary cheeses are a little safer and a little more consistent, but a bit less interesting than they used to be. Is there a fair trade off? I don't know the answer, I can only say that even the most banal block of factory cheese presents some risk. It seems as if we give up flavor and character, without any guaranty of safety. Perhaps we could legislate a safer car more easily than a safer cheese. By the way, three people were incarcerated for the crime of manslaughter in connection with the listeriosis deaths.