Trois Etoiles A Paris...

[erica graham]

My favourite meal in Paris ever was at Guy Savoy, when we let him cook for us- 16 courses later, and we had had an amazing experience.

I never regret ordering a tasting manu, even one when I don't know what I'm going to eat, although to be fair, I order it only when I am going to be visiting a restaurant once (due to distance etc) so that I can experience as many dishes as possible.

I'd like to think that by leaving it to the chef, the balance of the meal, the order of the dishes etc are going to be as the chef would have liked them, and that should add up to the best experence from my chosen restaurant. Even better when I ask the sommelier to match the wine aswell!!

[vinobiondo]

My favourite meal in Paris ever was at Guy Savoy, when we let him cook for us- 16 courses later, and we had had an amazing experience.

I never regret ordering a tasting manu, even one when I don't know what I'm going to eat, although to be fair, I order it only when I am  going to be visiting a restaurant once (due to distance etc) so that I can experience as many dishes as possible.

I'd like to think that by leaving it to the chef, the balance of the meal, the order of the dishes etc are going to be as the chef would have liked them, and that should add up to the best experence from my chosen restaurant. Even better when I ask the sommelier to match the wine aswell!!

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I had a similarly great experience at Guy Savoy -- after a brief "interview," we just put ourselves in their hands, and off we went. I think this is one of the great strengths of this restaurant -- their interest in creating a "custom" menu for you on the spot. The experience there seemed much more "individualized" than anywhere else we went (albeit we certainly paid handsomely for the attention). For a "last meal"-type experience, that's where I'd go -- for this type of "tasting menu."

Edited November 18, 2005 by vinobiondo (log)

[ulterior epicure]

Re: Tasting Menus...

...here's a thought...

Gary Danko's in Frisco has this set-up: you choose 5 courses from the "a la carte" for $81 (you can also chose less for lesser price), or you can go with his 5-course tasting menu. Presumably, if the tasting menu serves as a showcase of, or 'highlights,' the chef's culinary dexterity, then it is up to the diner to choose, without regard to price as to which experience they want... I doubt the European chefs would be amenable to that... have any of you seen a similar set-up in France?

U.E.

*Edited for grammar.

Edited November 19, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[MobyP]

Sure. Ducasse, for years now. Although his servings are too large to eat five. Four is usually enough to make you regret not having that second stomach surgically attached.

[MobyP]

That Michelin is giving three stars to all-tasting-menu restaurants is a sign of the times, which you can make of as you wish.

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Waitasecond. I'm pretty sure this was written of in the book of revelations. Isn't this one of the signs?

[ulterior epicure]

Sure. Ducasse, for years now. Although his servings are too large to eat five. Four is usually enough to make you regret not having that second stomach surgically attached.

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MobyP. [Edited for mistake] I'm a little confused - Ducasse doesn't seem to have the Danko set-up from the website - you either choose a la carte, or from his two tastings... there would be a price difference depending on which and how many a la carte items you choose. At Danko's - if you choose 5 courses from the "a la carte," (which is not really a la carte in the traditional sense) and you pay the same price as the 5-course tasting - not so at Ducassse (at least, from what I see).

U.E.

Edited November 20, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[MobyP]

Ulterior - you keep calling me Molto (in the truffle thread too). Look at the name!

I was wrong about ADPA - although I believe they used to do it. At ADNY, however, they let you chose 3 or 4 courses - making up your own menu:

"$150 Choice of one appetizer, one fish or one meat and one dessert

$175 Choice of one appetizer, one fish, one meat and one dessert"

So you're not paying for individual dishes, but for the overall number. You can certainly have 2 or 5 dishes, and they would price them individually.

[ulterior epicure]

Ulterior - you keep calling me Molto (in the truffle thread too). Look at the name!

YIKES! Terribly sorry! NO excuses! I promise, it won't happen again!

I was wrong about ADPA - although I believe they used to do it. At ADNY, however, they let you chose 3 or 4 courses - making up your own menu:

"$150 Choice of one appetizer, one fish or one meat and one dessert

$175 Choice of one appetizer, one fish, one meat and one dessert"

So you're not paying for individual dishes, but for the overall number. You can certainly have 2 or 5 dishes, and they would price them individually.

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Right. That's what I gathered. And notice, that format is offered on the other side of the Atlantic... still to be seen here in Europe?

U.E.

Edited November 20, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[ulterior epicure]

For all you who have remained faithful to my (initial) cause of dining at a Paris 3-star... as promised (and much too belated), here is my review, with pictures of my disappointing meal at Le Cinq.

Ulterior Epicure

Edited November 20, 2005 by ulterior epicure (log)

[docsconz]

Interesting review, U.E. Itseems like a totally unfortunate situation. The food certainly looked good, especially the scallops. It is too bad the dish was ruined. I wonder if your take on the wood pigeon might have been different if you were personally more inclined to European stle fowl, although by your description it sounds as if that might have been only one issue amongst others with this bird.

The service attitude sounds abominable for a restaurant of that caliber.

[ulterior epicure]

Interesting review, U.E. Itseems like a totally unfortunate situation. The food certainly looked good, especially the scallops. It is too bad the dish was ruined. I wonder if your take on the wood pigeon might have been different if you were personally more inclined to European stle fowl, although by your description it sounds as if that might have been only one issue amongst others with this bird.

1. Yeah, the scallops did look great - but you must believe me when I say they were completely over-done.

2. Re: pigeon and European preparations of fowl. Funny you should mention this - see my latest restaurant review of a great European-style pigeon... you'll laugh when you see the title.

The service attitude sounds abominable for a restaurant of that caliber.

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I was taken aback as well. I know my server knew that I was displeased. He was rather sheepish and evasive for the rest of the meal (after the scallops incident). It was rather strange - he seemed sorry, but unwilling to apologize or redress the situation.

U.E.

[pirate]

I lunched at Le Cinq two or three years ago. I had to be supplied with requisite jacket which, as I 've also noticed at the Bristol, seemed to make me appear more like a common person to the staff (to their satisfaction I think). For 12 additional euros at that time, 60 euros for lunch, I had the accompanying wines. A conversation about wines I like with the sommelier led to lavish pourings (as much as I wanted) of premier cru burgundies. I had the usual Paris city water with ice for free, but the sommelier, at no additional cost, offered a half bottle of mineral water. that he wanted me to try, too The food was very poor for the fixed price lunch, as you yourself noted. The wines and water alone were worth virtually the entire price of 72 euros. You disregarded the advice that you yourself sought.. Paris is super expensive for epicurean food ( see my post above on L'Ambroisie) and more costly than the USA for everyday food.. From your description of your lunch at Le Cinq it seems to me that you're not desired as a client..

[ulterior epicure]

I lunched at Le Cinq two or three years ago. I had to be supplied with requisite jacket which, as I 've also noticed at the Bristol, seemed to make me appear more like a common person to the staff  (to their satisfaction I think). For 12 additional  euros at that time, 60 euros for lunch, I had the accompanying wines. A conversation about wines I like  with the sommelier led to lavish pourings (as much as I wanted) of premier cru burgundies. I had the usual Paris city water with ice for free, but the sommelier, at no additional cost, offered a half bottle of mineral water. that he wanted me to try, too The food was very poor for the fixed price lunch, as you yourself noted. The wines and water alone were worth virtually the entire price of 72 euros.

pirate.

while i'm certainly glad you had a wonderful experience with the 'generous pours' at le cinq a couple of years back, i'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say about your experience there...

You disregarded the advice that you  yourself sought..

...and so I did... and I paid for my "mistake." unfortunately, beyond the fiscal punishment, a potentially great meal was missed.

Paris is super expensive for epicurean food ( see my post above on L'Ambroisie) and more costly than the USA for everyday food.. From your description of your lunch at Le Cinq it seems to me that you're not desired as a client..

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Thanks... I'm not sure how to take that...

U.E.

[pirate]

I was simply pointing out that while the kitchen failed, the staff made me as welcome as possible. That appeared to not be the case for you and I stated that. As far as mistakes, we all make them and will continue to make them.

Edited November 20, 2005 by pirate (log)

[ulterior epicure]

Update - for a review of my visit to Carre de Feuillants, see my blog.

[Culinista]

It may be too late about Le Cinq, but I'm here to warn you about Grand Vefour. Worst...meal...EVER I have had in Paris, and I have a friend in the kitchen there. I felt so badly since we were treated to the meal by friends who had never been to Paris, let alone a three-star. Our four servings of the reknowned foie gras ravioli came out completely differently, as did the main courses (2 horribly oversalted and overcooked tournedos of beef, 2 OK ones but not wonderful and drowning in oversalted demiglace, a cheap short order cook's trick in my book). That kind of inconsistency is something even McDonald's knows how to avoid. To add insult to injury, they use commercial wonton wrappers for the ravioli. Grand Vefour has always been proof positive for me that Michelin pimps for certain places if they have an illustrious tradition. The only way we could make up this experience for them was to introduce them immediately to L'Ambroisie and L'Arpege.

Grand Vefour even outranks La Tour d'Argent, my first "fancy" meal in Paris--actually, my first meal, period--on the list of infamy.

Your first encounter with French haute cuisine is very much like your first sexual experience. You'll always remember it, but chances are, it was awkward. The problem is that today's high prices have made it a very high stakes initiation. I think a lot of people will try it once and get scared off for life. But with experience, you will get better at feeding yourself at the high tables, maybe one day choosing your meals from the carte with the skill of vmilor. Of course, you have to be willing to invest the effort and a lot of money not only to learn about cuisine, but your own tastes.

Prices have risen across the board, and I can't remember now who made this comment in the thread, but it is true that it is really tough now to find solid good food lower down on the restaurant chain. Often, as Moby P pointed out, the small savings doesn't make up for the difference in quality. So not only is it increasingly difficult to get a traditional gastronomic education where you learn the fundamentals and work your way to the sublime, but it is appallingly easy to pay high prices for mediocre food.

Without that educational ladder, a lot of people quite rationally follow MobyP's logic and plunk down for a "guaranteed sublime." The problem is, as U.E. found out to his cost, that even at 3 stars and 300 euros+, there is no guarantee you will have a transcendent experience. Even if the restaurant does happen to have the sublime on the menu, whether it is on the tasting menu or the carte, the diner simply might not be at the point where s/he can recognize it.

And even for an experienced gourmet who has done the research, in the end you pays your money and takes your chances. Sometimes I feel like I'm being robbed, but other times I feel like I'm paying tithes at church. Those times make the whole crapshoot enterprise of contemporary gourmandism worth it.

The thing is, even in restaurants that do understand the concept of consistency and not letting inferior product walk into the dining room, every night is different. Every diner is different. So many factors. I've even learned not to be totally ruled by first impressions--my first experience at L'Ambroisie was awful from the service perspective, and I am normally not at all concerned with service. (The wine waiter, not the sommelier, shook every bit of sediment into my glass, another dropped a brioche down my back, and a third spilled water on the mignardises. They removed the tray only after we pointed to the standing water, and when it came back, the ruined tidbits had not been replaced.) Thank goodness vmilor was here to set me straight, although I am still skeptical of the French style of holding back on first-timers and only unfurling their true capabilities for regulars. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind on Grand Vefour, but I'm afraid I will never be convinced to go back there on my own dime and without the wholehearted recommendation of a source I deeply trust.

Here some places in Paris where I personally felt moved by the food to the point where I didn't notice the price:

Taillevent (went right after Tour d'Argent--saved haute cuisine for me, so it has a special place. I have not tried it since 1998.)

L'Arpege

L'Ambroisie

Ducasse at Plaza Athenee

L'Astrance

Places where I think you find excellent learning ground for the money, or at least you eat well without feeling ripped off:

Senderens (probably the best deal in Paris now. The main courses are definitely not 3-star and the service certainly is not, but I'd say you get about 70% of the value for 30% of the price of the old Lucas Carton. And the desserts were even greater value for the money. Far less of a difference, and at around 15 euros compared to 60.)

Pre Catalan

Le Bristol--problem is, at that price, you may as well go to the top list, but some nice things and a change of scene

Au Trou Gascon

L'Ambassade d'Auvergne

Aux Lyonnais

On the tasting menu debate, I think it depends--on the restaurant, and how I am feeling. I always look at the proposed set menus, whether tasting or traditional 3-5 courses, and see if it speaks to me. At least I study it to get a sense of the chef, especially if it is my first time. Of course, it also depends on what my companions feel like eating.

The style of the restaurant is very important for me. If the restaurant is a modern one designed with the tasting menu in mind, it seems I owe it to the place to let it present itself in the original concept, and unless there is some unusual constraint, I will order it. And as lxt very eloquently pointed out, it is a great way to learn, and I can't think of anyone who is so expert as to be beyond learning. I do not feel threatened by the thought that I might have one dish that I won't like as much as the others, nor do I need to dazzle the waiter with my gastronomic sophistication. (Although it is a good idea generally for the foreign diner in France, particularly if in a restaurant for the first time, to give some indication that they do know a thing or two about food or at least are intelligently interested.) The possibility that I might have something I love that I never would have thought of ordering is good enough. I do have my favorite ingredients and will try to get as much of them as possible, but I've also had amazing dishes composed of things I would never have gotten excited about or would have ordered on their own. The braised endive with speculoos sauce and strong coffee confiture at L'Astrance was a revelation, as were 2 new potatoes baked in hay and salt at L'Arpege a few weeks ago. (The potatoes were not even on the menu. The waiter brought us some from the next table.)

However, I do understand the feeling that people are being forcefed little tapas spoons all the time. Some places, usually the traditional ones, call for full courses. I hope the people at Elkano in the Basque country never hear of the tasting menu.

And there is the middle ground, as vmilor mentioned. Many places will do things in half portions. Two people can compose their own tasting menu while not having more food than a traditional 3-course meal. (Well, the secret here is that often the two half-portions often add up to more than a single portion, and you come out ahead in the quantity/price ratio.) This of course is for people who are very sure of themselves around a menu and are willing to do a little hard negotiation, probably in French.

Learning to order is a real art, second only to learning to choose a restaurant, but there is a whole lot of luck involved as well.

PS: I have been to Pierre Gagnaire's main restaurant as well as to Sketch and other related endeavors, and I just have not ever been excited about him. Purely subjective, of course, but I find him trying too hard intellectually and not hitting any emotional chord with me. The dishes all seem like good ideas that should somehow taste better. I vastly prefer Mugaritz in San Sebastian, or even El Bulli or the Fat Duck.

And don't feel bad about Le Cinq. I didn't manage to warn some good friends of mine who got engaged there last week without consulting me first. It's record of ruining special celebrations gets longer...

Edited December 1, 2005 by Culinista (log)

[grace3]

I must agree about Guy Savoy! I compare all the other many starred restaurants with a fantastic experience at Guy Savoy a few years back!!

Joan

[MobyP]

To add insult to injury, they use commercial wonton wrappers for the ravioli.

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Culinista, may I ask, do you know this from taste, or specific information?

[Culinista]

I suspected it from taste, and it was confirmed recently by a friend who is currently working there. I had asked him about it.

[Culinista]

I just happen to have some recent L'Ambroisie menus around, but some of them are missing prices. Lunch in May without wine came to about 225 euros per person, but it was incredibly generous. We left the carte to them (they have turned around completely and are some of the warmest welcomes in Paris), and they rewarded our confidence with an incredibly rare wild salmon fished from the Loire, the only one in the restaurant. Very interesting experience, especially since we had been steeped in salmon in Scandinavia. We also had their wonderful ecrevisses for the 2nd time, a supreme de volaille de Bresse smothered in morels, cheese, and the ethereal chocolate tart that always seems to come.

I can't remember the cost of our recent dinner since I haven't gotten my credit card statement--a good sign, since I think it was about the same cost as lunch, but with better wine. However, it involved lobster ravioli buried in truffles, line-caught bar with caviar and a warm cream sauce (quite the trick with cold caviar...), wild duck, and a big plateful of cepes plus TWO desserts, including that wonderful chocolate tart again.

Again, we left the choice up to them, but they know our palates by now. No more sediment in the wine glass or brioches, thank goodness. vmilor assures me it was a total fluke. They have more than made up for the past.

My big dream as a gourmet now is that one day I will go and they will bring me the game tart. They won't make it on demand-only if they decide you are worthy, and it is in season, and the chef feels like spending most of his week on it.

Edited December 1, 2005 by Culinista (log)

[Bux]

. . . . I've even learned not to be totally ruled by first impressions--my first experience at L'Ambroisie was awful from the service perspective, and I am normally not at all concerned with service. (The wine waiter, not the sommelier, shook every bit of sediment into my glass, another dropped a brioche down my back, and a third spilled water on the mignardises. They removed the tray only after we pointed to the standing water, and when it came back, the ruined tidbits had not been replaced.) Thank goodness vmilor was here to set me straight, although I am still skeptical of the French style of holding back on first-timers and only unfurling their true capabilities for regulars. Who knows, maybe I'll change my mind on Grand Vefour, but I'm afraid I will never be convinced to go back there on my own dime and without the wholehearted recommendation of a source I deeply trust. . . . .

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That was an interesting and exceptional post. Rarely am I willing to come so close to agreeing with anyone else's opinion, especially when they cover so wide a swath of dining. I'd recommend inexperienced diners read it twice. I'll only comment on the portion cited above, which I particularly enjoyed, and largely so because of the inherent contradiction. It's refreshing to read a statement that both acknowledges the importance of a first impression, while conceding the possibility that it may be entirely misleading. Many of us need to suspend reality, or at least the reality of our economic circumstances, just to reserve at a three star restaurant. One bad memory, especially if it's an intitial experience with a restaurant, will be enough to bring us back to reality, or at least to our own reality.

There's no accounting for personal taste. My sense of l'Amboisie was that those who looked for excitement on the plate might be disappointed unless they were the sort who found sheer perfection exciting. Some will, some won't. My memory of my appetizer (the curried langoustine, spinach and wafer dish) is that it hovered above my plate, a sense that was reinforced with each bite. Consuming the dish elevated me as well. You may call it magic or religion. What I most remember about the service, beyond feeling that much of it was perfect, but a little too detached, is my conversation with the sommelier or wine waiter. It was about the wine after we were well into the bottle and I was greatful for his patience with my very limited French and his willingness not to resort to English in reply. I suspect some would see it as a refusal to speak English. I am sure he was fluent in English and would have replied in English had I questioned him in English. I relished the fact that he took the time from his busy job on the floor to make himself understood in French.

[Culinista]

You're very kind, Bux.

Sounds like we probably would agree on many things, at least in matters of taste. That curried langostine dish, as well as vmilor's advice and the chocolate tart, of course, was the guiding light of redemption in that whole first awkward L'Ambroisie experience. Without it, I would not have gone back. It remains one of the high points of my eating memories. In the case of Grand Vefour, there was not even the faintest glimmer.

The problem is that most people can't afford to suspend economic reality often enough to reach the level where they are truly comfortable taking a gamble in the haute cuisine setting. On this thread, UE tried to avoid precisely that. So many people get that bad first experience and either won't or can't risk getting burned again. I'm starting to think that people should approach their first megabuck meal the way they would approach the high stakes tables in Vegas: play only with what you won't mind losing, because in this day of inflated prices and inconsistent ratings, there are no guarantees. The only way to even the odds is to know yourself and your tastes thoroughly, and do due diligence research before going. The redeeming factor about modern day gastrotourism is that there is incredible information available on egullet and food blogs.

I found the most recent L'Ambroisie receipt. 220 euros for dinner, 5 euros cheaper than lunch a few months earlier. There is little difference in price or the quantity of food served, although lunch might feature somewhat lighter dishes.

I actually prefer the restaurant at lunch on weekends. The light in the windows is beautiful, and it is pleasant to stroll about the square afterwards.

[vinobiondo]

Great post, Culinista.

Just curious ... how recent was this Grand Vefour visit? I had a FANTASTIC (probably all-time Top 5) meal there in April.

On that same trip, I also ate at L'Ambassade d'Auvergne, and I think it's a bit misleading to group it with the likes of Pre Catalan and Le Bristol -- for those who haven't been, it's a quite casual, inexpensive, neighborhood place with mostly hearty and rustic Auvergnese (heavy on the cheese) regional cuisine. It's definitely not "destination dining."

[akwa]

have not followed the thread

only offer this advice

gagnaire can be transcendental

arpege is very good

have you considered astrance

should be three in about a decade

enjoy

[fresh_a]

nd don't feel bad about Le Cinq. I didn't manage to warn some good friends of mine who got engaged there last week without consulting me first. It's record of ruining special celebrations gets longer...

How has the Cinq ruined special occasions?