Cross-cultural culinary memes/archetypes/whatever

[mizducky]

We were having a grand old time in the Stuffed Cabbage topic, comparing and contrasting different recipes that we learned from our respective forebears, the different names for the same/similar dish in various cultures, and so on and so forth. It gradually became quite apparent that the idea of cooking some kind of stuffing inside a leaf wrapper was popular across a whole bunch of cultures, all around the world.

Nor is the stuffed-leaf concept the only culinary meme/archetype/whatever-you-want-to-call it out there. Another that immediately springs to mind is the concept of the stuffed dumpling/dough object (this had come up in the course of the Pierogi thread. And there are tons more, I'm sure.

This kind of stuff fascinates the heck out of me--not only the basic "wow!" of comparing and contrasting all those different approaches to the same concept, but also the intriguing way food concepts and names migrate and morph along the way--either by long-term close proximity between cultures; or a historical event that linked up two previously-unconnected cultures (trade, war, travel, exploration, conquest, colonization, etc.). And then there are those cases in which similar food ideas pop up in entirely separate cultures, totally independently of each other, with no prior contact or communication (one example: my understanding is that Mexico had tamales going on for several centuries before ever coming into contact with any European cultures into wrapping leaves around food or sticking fillings inside dough).

So--I'm throwing this whole concept of the cross-cultural culinary meme/archetype/thingie out to the rest of y'all, to see if anyone else is into playing amateur culinary anthropologist/sociologist along with me. Possible subtopics include (but are not limited to) identifying various of these culinary memes; identifying, comparing, and contrasting examplars of said memes from various cultures; exploring how these memes traveled around, evolving as they went; identifying other possible cases in which a "meme" popped up totally independently, without prior cross-cultural contact; and I'd also be tickled to see if anyone can identify a food/dish that is unique, only ever found in one specific culture (I don't doubt that there must be a few, but I sure as heck can't think of any right off the top of my head).

[SuzySushi]

You need to check out The Universal Kitchen by Elisabeth Rozin, which offers a worldwide gastronomic tour of the similarities among ethnic cuisines. Among her chapters are: Meat on a Stick, The Primal Soup, and -- yes -- Layered, Spread, Sandwiched, and Stuffed.

[Chris Amirault]

Great thread, mizducky! At the end of the mole cook-off, I posted a link that I found to this compelling article by caroline, a.k.a. Rachel Laudan, on the connections between Islamic and Mexican cooking, which starts with a fascinating anecdote about mole:

When Mexico’s leading writer, Nobel Prize laureate Octavio Paz, arrived in New Delhi in 1962 to take up his post as ambassador to India, he quickly ran across a culinary puzzle. Although Mexico and India were on opposite sides of the globe, the brown, spicy, aromatic curries that he was offered in India sparked memories of Mexico’s national dish, mole (pronounced MO-lay). Is mole, he wondered, “an ingenious Mexican version of curry, or is curry a Hindu adaptation of a Mexican sauce?”

It's worth a read, believe me!

[Carrot Top]

Add my interested vote to the idea of this subject, mizducky!

I have to admit though that I am sleepy this morning and read SuziSushi's post as having something called "Man on a Stick"

Which I'd never heard of before.

The thought does come to mind of one food that I have never heard of being served outside China (and not often in China, either) which is live monkey's brains.

When I think of it, there are more foods Chinese or Asian that have ritualistic or medicinal purposes within the society than anywhere else (or let me rephrase that: foods which are defined by the culture as being so, for hidden yet widely accepted meanings exist within foods in all cultures). . .and also a larger variety of foods that are not served elsewhere.

Tiger lily buds? Birds nests? Just for a start (though who knows, it may come to light that these are served somewhere else ). I am not an expert on Chinese food by a far stretch, but there seems to be a plethora of richness there.

Can't wait to hear more answers.

[Tepee]

Tiger lily buds? Birds nests? Just for a start (though who knows, it may come to light that these are served somewhere else ). I am not an expert on Chinese food by a far stretch, but there seems to be a plethora of richness there.

Can't wait to hear more answers.

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Adding to your list of what weird stuff we chinese eat....snow frog fat, bear paws, bat soup, snake gall... , bear paws the only thing I haven't tried out of this list.

Edited September 24, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[Carrot Top]

Adding to your list of what weird stuff we chinese eat....snow frog fat, bear paws, bat soup, snake gall...

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It's a beautiful thing, Tepee.

I love to think of the "whys" and the rituals.

[Carrot Top]

Here's another food that as far as I can see has travelled somewhere around the old Ottoman Empire and extends as far as India but nowhere else that I've noticed: the yogurt beverage. A cold beverage either served strongly spiced with garlic (savory) in the Caucasus regions or with rosewater and spices (sweet) further out towards Asia.

[Apicio]

A whole set of ancient Roman sauces such as garum and salsamentum leap from a great distance of time and space to Southeast Asian salty fish sauces such as bagoong and patis (Filipino) and blachan (Indo-Malay) and nuoc mam (Vietnam and Thailand).

If borrowing is via cultural or political influence, the cuisines of the entire Southeast Asia

is a classic example. Where else can you find in one area the conmingled influence of India, Arabia, Portugal, China, Spain and Mexico. Perhaps, only in present day Canada and USA.

Edited September 24, 2005 by Apicio (log)

[Tepee]

The "why's"...

snow frog fat - good for the complexion (same goes for pearl powder).

bear paws - aphrodisiac

bat soup - strengthens the lungs (asthmatic cure). We used to drink a lot of this during hunting season when we were young because my father used to go hunting (bats, squirrels, wild boars, pigeons)

snake gall - tonic

I'd love to hear about the exotic foods of other cultures too.

Edited September 24, 2005 by Tepee (log)

[Carrot Top]

A whole set of ancient Roman sauces such as garum and salsamentum leap from a great distance of time and space to Southeast Asian salty fish sauces such as bagoong and patis (Filipino) and blachan (Indo-Malay) and nuoc mam (Vietnam and Thailand).

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Yes. . .those sauces went to the Western world in the form of Worcestershire sauce (anchovy based). Fascinating.

[slkinsey]

A whole set of ancient Roman sauces such as garum and salsamentum leap from a great distance of time and space to Southeast Asian salty fish sauces such as bagoong and patis (Filipino) and blachan (Indo-Malay) and nuoc mam (Vietnam and Thailand).

Yes. . .those sauces went to the Western world in the form of Worcestershire sauce (anchovy based). Fascinating.

I've been led to believe that Worcester Sauce is actually Indian in origin. Or rather I should say, created in England (by Mssrs. Lea & Perrins, natch) either from Indian ingredients or influenced by a recipe or sauce brought back from India.

[Carrot Top]

A whole set of ancient Roman sauces such as garum and salsamentum leap from a great distance of time and space to Southeast Asian salty fish sauces such as bagoong and patis (Filipino) and blachan (Indo-Malay) and nuoc mam (Vietnam and Thailand).

Yes. . .those sauces went to the Western world in the form of Worcestershire sauce (anchovy based). Fascinating.

I've been led to believe that Worcester Sauce is actually Indian in origin. Or rather I should say, created in England (by Mssrs. Lea & Perrins, natch) either from Indian ingredients or influenced by a recipe or sauce brought back from India.

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Mmm hmm. The British Empire toting home some quite lovely foods.

All those fish sauces in that same geographic area. (A large geographic area, yes, but that was before the individual nation-state idea. . .or at least so I'm told ).

I still wonder how that leap was made from Ancient Rome to a slightly-more-current Asia happen. . .when and how?

What an adventure all of it is, in retrospect.

It probably did not feel too adventurous, those long sea voyages and treks across land on horses and camels. It probably felt tiring. "Just a job", "a way to make some money" you know.

But so fun to read and think of afterwards!

Edited September 24, 2005 by Carrot Top (log)

[Tepee]

I'm not feeling particularly seaworthy tonight (here), mates, so I'll be unadventurous and say that these fish sauces must have been developed by these respective cultures, which makes sense, because they are close to the sea, not land-locked.

I don't think we want to go into pasta and noodles etc...that horse is beaten dead.

[Carrot Top]

I don't think we want to go into pasta and noodles etc...that horse is beaten dead.

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And yet the dead horse continues to be arisen and led to water. . .

[Tepee]

I don't think we want to go into pasta and noodles etc...that horse is beaten dead.

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And yet the dead horse continues to be arisen and led to water. . .

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Aaarrr! Me beauty! Are ye quick!

[cheesecurdsinparadise]

A Hungarian once wrote the lonely planet food board to ask if Bouillabaisse was similar to Hungarian fish soup. The variations on this dish have to be found on every inhabitable continent. I was thinking the other day about the similarity of wrapped rice dishes--Sushi, Korean Kimbap, Hawaiian Poke. And there are variations of curry all over the place--Southeast Asian curries very different than South Asian ones, different than African ones, different than ones in places like Surinam. One could almost consider American chili a curry, especially the old Texan way, slow simmered meat that's heavy on the Cumin and Hot Pepper. Fried bits of meal are another one--fritters of some type are huge in the americas, the caribbean, africa... Mixed rice/meat/veggie dishes share an awful lot of similarities--people always say jambalaya is descended from paella, but why? There are plenty such dishes in West Africa and the Caribbean, and the spanish didn't seem to leave any other marks on Louisiana cuisine, whereas traces of the latter areas are omnipresent. (I've heard arguments for spanish influence, but the fact of the matter is that very few Spaniards actually settled in Louisiana; the government hired islenos and acadians to come populate the state. Apart from the architecture, there is very little trace of spanish rule. And don't say hot peppers--those were as popular in the french speaking caribbean as they were in any spanish speaking area).

[mizducky]

Yay! We've got action!

You need to check out The Universal Kitchen by Elisabeth Rozin, which offers a worldwide gastronomic tour of the similarities among ethnic cuisines.  Among her chapters are: Meat on a Stick,  The Primal Soup, and -- yes -- Layered, Spread, Sandwiched, and Stuffed.

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Wow, that looks like one very cool book--and aiming right at what I was trying to get at when I started this topic. Re: "meat on a stick" -- definitely an appropos category; and at the same time I must confess the first thing I thought of when I saw that phrase was Minnesota state fair food.

Great thread, mizducky! At the end of the mole cook-off, I posted a link that I found to this compelling article by caroline, a.k.a. Rachel Laudan, on the connections between Islamic and Mexican cooking ...

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Yes, an extremely interesting read, that. And here I was going to venture that moles might be an example of a unique food/technique--all those hours of grinding together and cooking together all those disparate ingredients--but yeah, now I realize that description does indeed also fit the preparation of a number of Indian sauces.

I'm not feeling particularly seaworthy tonight (here), mates, so I'll be unadventurous and say that these fish sauces must have been developed by these respective cultures, which makes sense, because they are close to the sea, not land-locked.

Oh yeah, it does seem pretty clear that access to specific ingredients does mightily influence cuisines across cultures. Another example I can think of is the use of sea vegetables--obviously it helps to have a source of fresh seaweeds close at hand, so it makes sense that two island cultures as disparate as Japan and Ireland would make use of the food.

It's also apparent that necessity in general plays a role in these cross-cultural similarities. One time-honored example: the same techniques seem to turn up over and over in terms of traditional pre-refridgeration methods of preserving food--sooner or later, it seems, virtually every culture came up with various combinations of drying, salting, smoking, curing, culturing, fermenting, brining, etc. to preserve perishable foods. And from those techniques it would only be a few short leaps to such foodstuffs as alcoholic beverages; yeasted breads; cheeses; pickles; sausages and hams; preserved fish and condiments based on same; and on and on. Not to mention how the economic incentive to find sources of spices for food preservation influenced world history--and in turn, culinary history and cross-fertilization.

And then, sometimes the functional qualities of the foodstuff itself might dictate the range of techniques people use on it across cultures. A couple of possible examples: starchy foods allow a whole bunch of recurring techniques in terms of thickening liquids; refined sugar's properties allow a whole bunch of recurring candy-making techniques.

I don't think we want to go into pasta and noodles etc...that horse is beaten dead.

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Yeah, pasta as such has been discussed a whole lot. It might be more fun to consider some other concepts that haven't been quite as widely discussed. (Although if anyone has any new or cogent cross-cultural insights on pasta, sure, fire away!)

Here's a couple of other random thoughts:

--While traditional Asian cuisines (other than Indian, I mean) have not really been into dairy, I've long been struck by the parallels between Western cheese-making technique and Eastern tofu-making technique. I think there's a definite shared concept in there, in terms of taking a protein-rich food, coagulating the protein therein, and then further processing the results in various ways.

--Smoked meats are common in lots of cultures; but are there other cultures whose approach to smoking meats produces anything like the various forms of American barbeque? (I honestly don't know--seeking to educate myself here. Most other smoked meats that I can think of tend to be much drier and storage-ready, like hams for example ...)

[Pam R]

Re: "meat on a stick" -- definitely an appropos category; and at the same time I must confess the first thing I thought of when I saw that phrase was Minnesota state fair food.

See... and the Minnesota State Fair makes me think of an Oofda Taco... where else can you get one of those?

[Pam R]

Re: "meat on a stick" -- definitely an appropos category; and at the same time I must confess the first thing I thought of when I saw that phrase was Minnesota state fair food.

See... and the Minnesota State Fair makes me think of an Oofda Taco... where else can you get one of those?

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I just realized they are not all tht different from a beavertail - and that probably many other places have a method of fry bread...

[Apicio]

I think that the most dramatic way to discover how food travel is to trace the dispension of certain crops and food items indigenous to the New World from their native habitat to virtually the rest of the world. Think of the post-Columbian items that have found not only acceptance but have even acquired essential indispensability in a lot of their adopting cuisines. Tomato, potato, maiz, peanuts, chili, avocado, pineapple, manioc, jícama, chocolate and many others. It is particularly hard to imagine how cuisines that are now noted for the heat and fire of some of their dishes such as that of Korea, Thailand and India managed without chili which only reached them in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.

For example, when the Mexican tamal reached our shores sometime in the seventeenth or eighteenth century, the Filipinos naturalized it by adopting the noun’s plural tamales and by substituting the principal ingredient maize meal with the more plentiful and easier to process ground rice. It ran into a sort of confusion too with an indigenous equivalent boboto because they are essentially the same except boboto was enriched with coconut milk and wrapped in a sheet of banana leaf. The happy end-result is we now have both, but each adjusted accordingly, probably to draw some sort of distinction. Boboto started getting coloured and flavoured with the Mexican colour/flavoring achiote but retained its garnish of small shrimps. Tamales on the otherhand became a smarter version of boboto but colourless, it started getting enriched with coconut milk too and garnished with the requisite slices of chicken and ham, a quarter of boiled egg and three or four shelled boiled peanuts, another Mexican borrowing. One of my most felicitous finds is an ingenious combination of both versions wrapped in a single shallow cone of banana leaf. Even more delightful with just plain puto (steamed rice cake).

[mizducky]

I think that the most dramatic way to discover how food travel is to trace the dispension of certain crops and food items indigenous to the New World from their native habitat to virtually the rest of the world.  Think of the post-Columbian items that have found not only acceptance but have even acquired essential indispensability in a lot of their adopting cuisines.  Tomato, potato, maiz, peanuts, chili, avocado, pineapple, manioc, jícama, chocolate and many others.  It is particularly hard to imagine how cuisines that are now noted for the heat and fire of some of their dishes such as that of Korea, Thailand and India managed without chili which only reached them in the seventeenth and eighteenth century.

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An excellent point. Follow the foods.

From what little I've learned of Filipino cuisine so far, it seems like an especially vivid example of taking cuisine influences from a huge number of different cultures and melding them into something distinctly their own. (Reminds me I need to go do a little more turo-turo research ... )

And I also find myself wondering what a lot of the super-spicy cuisines of Asia were like before they adopted chiles--were they as hot? What did they use for the heat? Somebody got a pointer to books/scholars/etc. who explore this facet of culinary history? (It's kind of a hard concept to cram into a Google search string.)