Love at first bite: are your childhood

[John Whiting]

There's a sequence of American literary figures (Nelson Algren, Calvin Trillin, Jason Epstein et al) who have waxed lyrical about their food memories. Mostly they're simple foods, even bland commercial products -- the American equivalent of nursery or boarding school fare. Even a sophisticated American restaurant such as the Union Square Cafe is famous for its burgers, whether meat or tuna.

Relatively few American authors or journalists who turn to food (such as Waverley Root, John Hess, W.R. Apple, Jeffrey Steingarten) celebrate tastes which are sophisticated. In other words, most writers echo the modern American experience of food as nourishment at an infantile level. (The notable exceptions tend to be regional and ethnic in origin.)

There's a party game in which a series of questions is asked about one's eating habits. They are so structured as to determine what are one's favorite foods and at what point in one's life they were introduced. Statistically the answer is overwhelmingly, in early childhood. But I suspect that eGullet members would provide exceptions. For instance, one of my favorite foods is cassoulet, which I'd barely heard of before I'd reached my half-century.

So -- How many of us have, as it were, been liberated from our childhood? (It's a deliberately loaded question.) Although the topic is cast in American terms it will be interesting to see how others respond.

[This topic was prompted by Jason Epstein's nostalgic NY Times elegy on the hamburger.]

[La Niña]

Many of my favorite childhood foods are still my favorite adult foods.  I was brought up in a family where food was taken seriously - there was no distinction between what the kids ate and what the adults ate.  We were simply expected to eat what everyone was eating.  I don't remember a time in my life when I didn't eat virtually *everything*.

But if I have to make some sort of bridge in my head between the foods I especially loved as a child that I still especially love now, I'd say:  wiener schnitzel, chicken paprikasz. Indonesian ristaafel, szekely goulash, ukrainian style winter borscht, good cheeses of all kinds, salamis and wursts, fondue, pastries of all kinds, liver, caviar, a good traditional Thanksgiving feast, good chocolate, wine...you know, the list is really endless.  I guess what I'm trying to say is that I been a passionate eater since I could put fork (or fingers) to mouth, so for me there's little distinction between those foods I loved as a child and those foods I love now.  For the record, neither of my parents is American.

On a tangent, regarding children - what do people think about exposing kids to, and educating them about, food?  In my family, kids are expected to eat what they're given from a very young age.  Seems to me that kids live up to expressed expectations, regardless of what those expectations are.  My nephews, who are 4 and 2 respectively, know already that they are expected to at least try every food.  If they give something a good try and still don't like it, then they can eat something else.  But that rarely happens - inevitably, they like it.

[Miss J]

My food tastes have definitely moved on. My mum cooked good, healthy, perfectly tasty food (and the homegrown organic veg and homemade bread contributed a lot), but none of it was terribly exotic.

There are some favourites I have from childhood, but they really are for comfort rather than a  hypothetical last-meal-on-earth. (Although come to think of it, what better time for a little culinary comfort would that be?)

My current favourites are complex, spicy, aromatic and usually Asian.

My comfort foods are usually meaty, home-y and salty - though not necessarily all at once. No chocolate for this girl when she gets the blues!

Miss J

[Steve Plotnicki]

As I was sitting outside Cafe Reggio on McDougal Street the other night, someone asked me if I ever had the need to go home to my old neighborhood "to touch" the things I grew up with, like the playground I used to play in when I was a kid. Now you asked this question. Is it something in the air?

Calvin Trillin's story about this phenomenon is particularly funny. He has the jonses for macaroni and cheese. Not just any M & C, but a certain brand (out of a box) that is exclusive to Kansas City which is where he grew up. So he goes there on a trip with his family and stays with his parents. They get off the plane, head to a grocery store and buy the M & C. They make it for dinner and it's not that good. Disillussioned with his entire youth, he leaves the table slightly dejected. But the next night he wakes up in the middle of the night and is hungry, heads down to the fridge where he sees the M & C and takes a forkful. He then realizes that what he was missing wasn't M & C., it was cold day old M & C.

I think your question really has two parts to it. One, are there things you ate as a child that aren't particularly good that you still have a taste for because it played a large role in your culinary past? Second, how do you justify them given that your palate has gotten sophisticated due to what it is now exposed to? In reality it all boils down to, is a White Castle hamburger good because it was good on those late nights when you were out partying, or does it stand on it's own?

The question is appropos for me. I have been reevaluating all of these things on a food by food basis. So many things I used to find acceptable, I don't anymore. I have been really having a go at Chinese food and the quality that they serve in NYC. I know that Bux feels the quality of Chinese food in NYC has deteriorated, and I agree with him, but a large part of me has come to learn that what I used to think was good never really was. The same is true of foods that are part of the culinary culture of my own ethnicity.

But none of that means the dishes themselves are bad, if made well with top quality ingredients. I don't think there is anything I ate as a child that I wouldn't eat now. Yes the occassion where I might eat Eastern European Jewish style stuffed cabbage are less, partly because it is too heavy, partly because it doesn't express an urban contemporary lifestyle in any way, partly because there are hardly any good versions around any more, but mostly because I have come to learn that the French style of making stuff cabbage using ground pork is better.

Of the ethnic food of my youth, there are usually non-Jewish equivelents of all the famous dishes that I found to be much better. Cholent has been displaced by cassoulet, gefilte fish by quenelles. Pot au feu instead of beef in a pot and of course, a Poule a Pot where the stuffing of the chicken is a pate made with pork has replaced Chicken in the Pot with its matzohballs. One has to be blind not to admit that the French versions aren't better. But that doesn't mean that a good cholent isn't delicious. But given all the choices that are to be had in the world, why would one limit themselves to the choices of their youth, which were probably limited due to finances and openmindedness by one's parents?

[La Niña]

"Yes the occassion where I might eat Eastern European Jewish style stuffed cabbage are less, partly because it is too heavy, partly because it doesn't express an urban contemporary lifestyle in any way"

I don't get that at all.  Do you mean that eating home cooked food isn't "urban and comtemporary?"

[cabrales]

The food that I ate with frequency during my childhood does not approximate the type of cuisine I appreciate today. For example, while I was only very slightly exposed to French cuisine (not particularly developed versions) as a child (and excluding my late teenage years) from time to time, it is clearly my favorite cuisine today. I now have a keen sense of the types of products that please me, and the restaurants (particularly in France) that please me.  Making choices, informed by one's subjective preferences, and bearing the upside and downside of them are part of growing up. The same principles apply with respect to a diner's choice of what he takes in.

When I was a young child, certain of the very few restaurants I like were not even operating as such. Of course, the me of today would have fared just fine eating at certain restaurants then that no longer exist. I have never eaten cuisine from the hands of Point, Bise, Chapel or Dumaine and never will, of course. There are some restaurants that I feel I missed out on while I was somewhat older, although still not a developed diner -- Girardet's restaurant in Crissier, perhaps the period when P Troisgros was jointly cooking with M Troisgros, and Robuchon at Jamin.  Those restaurants could have been accessible, had I had my current preferences and knowledge earlier in life.  :confused:  Not only do I not look upon the food of my childhood with particular fondness, but I feel I missed out on so many things by not having developed as a knowledgeable diner at an earlier age range.

[Steve Plotnicki]

No. Traditions brought to America by Eastern European Jews are not urban and contemporary. They might still be practiced in certain quarters, and by certain people, and even by all people given the right occassion, but the vast majority of them have not become part of our daily life. Some traditions

might have been adopted into the daily fare of Americana. Like bagels. A uniquely Jewish item that you can now get with ham and cheese on it in Mississippi. Or maybe a pastrami sandwich.

Why would anyone eat cholent? It is an inferior concoction to a cassoulet. And that is why cassoulet, even though it's an ancient dish, is urban and contemporary. People seek it out because it is the best casserole dish which revolves around beans and meat. But that doesn't mean other bean dishes like cholent, or fejoida aren't delicious and they don't have their place and time. They just aren't as sophisticated a grouping of flavors as one finds in a cassoulet.

[La Niña]

I just don't see why certain European traditional foods aren't "urban and contemporary."  Cassoulet is an old traditional food - why is it more "urban and contemporary?"  Because it's what you've incorporated into your particular "urban and contemporary" lifestyle?  Because its flavors are more complex?  Why does that make it "urban?"  It's a countryside kind of dish in any event.

Define "urban and contemporary" in this context, if you will.

And for the record, Sephardic cholent, called "hameen," is a much more interesting dish than the traditional Ashkenazi one.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Nina - That's an easy one. One would find casoulet on the menu of urban and contemporary restaurants like Les Halles in Manhattan. Cholent is only on the menu of the Second Avenue Deli and those types of places. Also the word cassoulet has transcended its origins and chefs often use it to describe dishes that have nothing to do with cassoulet. Like

a "Cassoulet of Spring Vegetables." The word bouillabaisse has been co-opted this way as well. But nobody ever offers a "Cholent of Beans and Meats from the Hudson Valley." Unless it's at the Jewish Community Center in Poughkeepsie.

[jaybee]

I guess there are two ways to answer ths question.  One has to do with tase and eating enjoyment and the other has to do with fantasy and nostalgia.  On the level of taste and eating enjoyment, I've never tired of hamburgers and breaded veal cutlet, two of my favorite things my mother made as I was growing up.  These are foods that can stand on their own. I'd like them even if I hadn't had them as a kid.  Whether the exact hamburger my mother made would taste as good as the brisket/chuck burgers I charcoal-grilled on Memorial Day weekend, who knows?  But why risk a comparison?

On the track of fantasy and nostalgia, I am reminded of an incident that happened with my son when he was seven years old.  Though not related to food, it does relate to the power of fantasy vs. reality.  He had hocked me for weeks and weeks to buy him the Vol. 1 #1 issue of Mad Comics, which was for sale in a nearby comic collectors store.  It was $125, (this was 1976) which I thought a bit steep for a seven yerar old whose "collecting" was questionable.  Finally after much persuasive and guilt-inducing pleading I agreed to buy it.  We went together to the store, carefull examined the rather dog-eared comic in its plastic envelope, I wrote a check and we left with the prize in his hands.  In the cab he opened the bag and took out the book, leafed through the pages gingerly and put it back in the envelope.  

Then he said "You know it's funny.  you want something so bad, and you think about it all the time, and then you get it...and.... it's just there."

It's just there, a comic in a bag.  His life was no different after he got it than it was before, except it's just there.  The stunning insight and truth of that statement from a seven year old amazed me.

Trillin's M&C experience not withstanding, the fantasy connected with foods from our past are so much more powerful than the reality of eating them today, and I wonder sometimes if fantasies are best left untested.  Marylin Monroe and James Dean left us in their 30s.  James Dean Would we want to see them as an eighty year-olds?I want to remember the Addy Valens hot fudge sundae as the most delicious one that ever existed.  Best that, if given the chance, I shouldn't eat one today.

[cabrales]

Peeled green grapes are items I continue to enjoy, although I don't eat them often nowadays because I would be the one doing the peeling.  

[Jinmyo]

And for the record, Sephardic cholent, called "hameen," is a much more interesting dish than the traditional Ashkenazi one.

Nina, could you please post a thread on these? Or just describe them a bit here?

[John Whiting]

On a tangent, regarding children - what do people think about exposing kids to, and educating them about, food?

Nina, you've posed a question which is more important than mine and deserves its own thread. I'll hope you'll post it as a separate topic.

Steve, count on you to make the answer an inner struggle! But you're quite right -- one's maturing food preferences are often tied up with one's growing ambivalence over cultural loyalties. I've Jewish friends who have agonized over their love of Schweineshaxe and bratwurst.

I have to sign off. My wife says I must stop playing with my toys and cut the hedge.

[jaybee]

Re-reading John's original question, I realize I went off on a tangent and did not answer it.  In my eGullet bio, which I called the education of JB, I described the point at which I realized there was a world of foods and tastes "out there" far beyond my limited experience.  That occured in my 20s.  Circumstances and finances made this new world available to me.  Once the door was opened, there was no turning back.

A wonderful story by Jean Shepherd, a radio story-teller from the 50s-70s (that I still listen to today via tapes and mp3 downloads) tells yarns about his childhood in a middle-class blue collar home in Hammond, Indiana.  His mother made meat loaf and red cabbage most days, and his parent's awareness of anything resembling cuisine was limited to an occasional trip to the local chop suey house.  He describes them talking with amused derision about people who actually eat frogs, birds and snails, ugghhh.  As kid he accepted his as the way "normal" people ate.  

Then he met a wealthy girl in college who invited him to dinner at her parents lavish home.  Seated at the table, he looked in amazement as dishes containing strange looking little shells that looked suspiciously like snails were served.  He watched as people extracted small dark objects from the shells using tiny forks and holding the shells with a kind of fancy looking pliers.  He broke into a cold sweat.,  "Omigod, they're eating snails."  "Do you like escargot. Jean" the blonde goddess asked him.  Nodding feebly and croaking "yeah"  he forced himself to pull the small worm-like object out of its shell and quickly popped it into his mouth.  He held his breath for a moment, then began to chew....."Holy smokes," he thought,

"this is fantastically good!  Delicious!"  He quickly demolished his dish and enthusiatically accepted an offer of seconds.  

The next course included some sort of roasted duck. Duck!, which heretofore he had only seen paddling about in the local swamp while he was fishing.  He had no idea people actually ate those things.

He describes finishing this meal and realizing that "out there" was a whole world of experiences he was yet to have.  He said he went home and could never quite feel the same about his parents.  From that night on, he could only pretend to laugh when his father would say "imagine, there are people in the world who eat snails...uggghhh."

[Steve Plotnicki]

A few things.

Jinmyo - There is a Morrocan version of cholent called Dafina. It's Sephardic, but not the same type of Sephardim that would be made by Jews who lived in say Iraq. A Dafina is what they call the traditional sabbath bake. It's a casserole with lentils as the base (like cholent,) other vegetables and assorted cuts of meat, usually lamb.  Then a meatloaf that is stuffed with prunes and an egg (still in the shell) is formed and wrapped in tinfoil or some other wrapping to hold it together. That is placed directly into the lentils  in the large casserole. They cover the casserole and they seal it with pastry dough. Then it is baked in a very low oven for anywhere for 18 hours. The dish arises from the fact that Jews aren't allowed to cook on the sabbath. So they devised a dish that one could put on the fire before sundown which could cook until the next day when everyone came home from synagogue for lunch. The derivation of cholent is the same, it's a sabbath bake but for Askenazy Jews.

John - Well if my parents were interested in eating French food and sushi rather than pastrami and baked whitefish, there would be nothing to yearn for.

Jaybee - I think the fantasy of our food past, and the reality of whether things are good really or not have nothing to do with each other. They are connected by erroneous assumptions one drew when they weren't really qualified to make any assumptions about what is delicious and what is not really delicious. In reality, the only way one could properly order what they used to eat within the context of their current and informed culinary lives is to try it in its current context.

[jaybee]

I think the fantasy of our food past, and the reality of whether things are good really or not have nothing to do with each other.

My point precisely.

But the connection of fantasy to the perception of foods affects the way we experience them today.  You are saying that an unsentimental assessment of foods we ate as children will, for many, reveal the culinary shortcomings of these foods compared with what we eat as sophisticated adults.  I agree.

For some, that is an unwelcome revelation.  For others, it represents growth and broader experience.  That was the point of Jean Shepherd's story.  His experience with escargot cost him a certain measure of connection with his parents.  He was no longer part of their world and had now moved into another that they could only deride because of their limited experience, attitudes and finances.  This was both sad and exciting for him.  

(What a great thread!  Thank you, John).

[cakewalk]

...a "Cassoulet of Spring Vegetables." The word bouillabaisse has been co-opted this way as well. But nobody ever offers a "Cholent of Beans and Meats from the Hudson Valley." Unless it's at the Jewish Community Center in Poughkeepsie.

Ummm.... are we dealing with Shakespeare here? Is this reverse version of a rose by any other name smells just as sweet (or whatever)?

Is a poorly made cassoulet "better" than a tasty cholent simply because it's called a cassoulet? This does seem to be what you're saying, Steve, although I figure it's probably not what you mean. So, er, what do you mean?

[Steve Plotnicki]

Cakewalk - No. Haricots blanc are a better base than lentils are. And an assortment of meats that aren't limited to kosher cuts make for a tastier dish. In a cassoulet, you get the fattiness and moisture from lamb, pork sausage and the skin of a goose or duck. A cholent can't compete with that assortment of flavors. Neither can a fejoida (although a great concoction) which is black beans and mainly pork parts.

This actually makes for a good thread but, do you not think that "the cream" rises to the top? Is it not the case that paella is seved the world over because it is the world's greatest dry rice dish? And risotto because it is the world's best wet rice dish? Cassoulet just happens to be "the best" bean dish baked in a casserole. You can define best anyone way you want.  Either by how much more it has proliferated the world of gastronomy, or by just tasting them side by side, which is how I get to my conclusion.

[La Niña]

And for the record, Sephardic cholent, called "hameen," is a much more interesting dish than the traditional Ashkenazi one.

Nina, could you please post a thread on these? Or just describe them a bit here?

First of all, you gotta check this out:  http://www.cam.ac.uk/societies/cujs/cholent/cholent.htm - The Cambridge University Cholent Society, I kid you not.  Note especially the disparaging comments about the Oxford University Cholent Society.  Hilarious.

Onto the question at hand:  first of all, Cholent is the name for the Ashkenazi version of this dish.  The dish (all the versions_ is eaten on the Sabbath, since it's prohibited to make a fire - it's prepared ahead of time, and cooked in a verrrrry slow oven for many, many hours - overnight.  Could be as much as 16 hours.  It's then eaten for Sabbath lunch, when the men get back from prayer. The smell, overnight, as it's cooking is unbearably enticing.  All the versions traditonally use potatoes and barley in them.  There are as many variations on these dishes as there are Jewish cooks.

Typically, cholent (we're talking the Ashkenazi dish) is made with white beans or lima beans, brisket, and is a little sweet - sometimes it has honey or prunes in it.

Sephardic versions are all over the place.  The Iraqis and Egyptians call it D'fina, or Adafina.  Moroccans use the word d'fina and also the  word Scheena.  It usually includes chick peas instead of beans, chicken in addition to the meat, and the meat is stew beef or lamb.  It also has cumin, turmeric, and one lays whole eggs on top and they roast into this gorgeous brown color and end up tasting like nuts.  The Iraqi version is my personal favorite.  Steve described but one version of a Moroccan one above.

Indian Jews call it Hameen, and this one has cardamom and basmati rice in it, along with the usual Indian suspects.  Typically made with chicken, no beef or other meat.

Hungarians call it Shalet - obviously a lot of paprika, and made traditionally with goose.

If anybody's curious, I can post the recipe later from home from an Iraqi Jewish family I know - I have their generations-old recipe and it's really good.

And it makes me feel very urban and contemporary  

[Jinmyo]

Nina, that Web site is great!

I'd be interested in seeing the Iraqi recipe.

[John Whiting]

Wow! I just threw a switch and profundity rolls out. If only there were a modern radio or TV food program equivalent of the old BBC Brains Trust.

The discussion of cassoulet and cholent is fascinating inasmuch as there are food historians who suggest that the cholent was in fact the ur-version of the cassoulet, brought into southwest France by migrating Jews. Another thought: it's well established that the broan bean (i.e. lima-type) would have been the basis of the casoulet until the haricot was introduced and gradually took over from the 16th to the the early 19th century. This fact is cited by one French food guru as proof of the theory that there is progress in cuisine, inasmuch as the haricot-based cassoulet is obviously superior!

Steve, your dogmatic statement about the self-evident superiority of paella, risotto and cassoulet is open to question -- but not by me. Logic must give way to pragmatism.

[La Niña]

Steve, your dogmatic statement about the self-evident superiority of paella, risotto and cassoulet is open to question -- but not by me. Logic must give way to pragmatism.

Ah, John, you're getting so wise in your old age  

[Steve Plotnicki]

John - Well we could debate what the definition of dominant is until the cows come home. But that will only be a discussion about semantics. It's hard to disagree with a statement that says that paella and risotto are the worlds pre-eminant rice dishes. But you can try if you want.

As for cholent and cassoulet, I find it hard to believe that both dishes didn't evolve out of the fact that there was always a fire going on because they were hard to start. Forgetting about religion, which means you couldn't start a fire at certain times, it was difficult starting a fire at any time. So I am suspect of crediting Jews with it. Because a pot au feu, cocida, bollito misto, etc. all derive from the same principal. Maybe the Jews are responsible for beans and/or lentils being the basis of the dish. But they clearly couldn't be the source of that type of one pot cooking.

[jaybee]

But that will only be a discussion about semantics.

So? I'm not anti-semantic.  

[jaybee]

Forgetting about religion, which means you couldn't start a fire at certain times, it was difficult starting a fire at any time. So I am suspect of crediting Jews with it.

If I recall correctly, Raquel Welch as a cave woman in 10,000BC was able to start a fire any time she wanted to.  And she wasn't Jewish.