Certain Restaurants' Wine Lists

[MartyL]

Pardon me if I ignore the whole rich vs. poor thing and comment on the Trotter's wine list:

Most of the Burgs are too young and the few well-aged ones are overpriced, but there are 3 reds in or under the price range suggested that come to mind on a quick scan:

1. Fourier 99 Gevrey Chambertin Clos St. Jacques: retails for about $80 in NY, so the mark-up here to $135 is not bad, given the context. I tried this wine recently and although it is definitely young, it shows the class of its vineyard site.

2. & 3. Dujac 99 Clos de la Roche or Clos St. Denis: each retails for about $150 this side of the pond, so again the mark-up is less than 100%. Again, I'd rather have this with about 10 years of age on it, but Dujac wines are always elegant and beautiful, young or old.

In the whites, there are some enticing things if you look at the left column only and ignore prices. I'd sure like to try one of those 79 Ramonets or the 95 Niellon Chevalier Montrachet, but at those prices I fold.

[jordyn]

Beachfan and MartyL: Thanks so much for your suggestions. I'll need to have a little cheat sheet of these notes when I actually show up at Trotter's.

[TCD]

They usually spend the most money on food because brining your own wine usually means you are a serious eater.

come on plots. i know you're around. step up to this load of horsecr*p. don't quietly back off of it as you have been accused of in the past (not by me). and just when i was starting to respect you too. oh well.

Did they secretly know I was an Internet VIP?

As an Internet VIP I'm pretty certain that Mr. P does not have to respond to you.

[tommy]

As an Internet VIP I'm pretty certain that Mr. P does not have to respond to you.

of course. of course.

[cabrales]

I'd appreciate input on the ADNY wine list, only excerpts from which are available (unclear reserve list is adequately represented):

http://www.alain-ducasse.com/adny_carte_vins.pdf

Please see the above request, relating to a meal planned for this weekend. Any input on worthwhile French white wines would be particularly appreciated. I hope to spend less than $200 for a bottle.

[LaNiña]

This is what you wanted addressed, right Tommy?

i wanted steve to address it. and considering nina's feet are dangling out of his arse, i was hoping she'd have some thoughtful input as well beyond "yeah, what he said."

yo, how come when I disagree with Plots, no comments, but when I happen to agree with him, my head's up his proverbial arse?

[MartyL]

Any input on worthwhile French white wines would be particularly appreciated. I hope to spend less than $200 for a bottle.

Cabrales, sorry to be of no help here, but that list looks pretty bad to me and I don't see much I'd recommend given the prices. No doubt their reserve list is more extensive, but I'd hazard a guess that there too the mark-ups are out of hand.

If you want a French white, the Vernay Condrieu will probably be enjoyable, but it is also priced at about 3x retail. I was heartened to see the 2001 Beaujolais Blanc from J.P. Brun's Terres D'Orees on the Ducasse list. That is an astonishingly good wine for the $8.99 it costs at retail (you can find it at Chambers St. Wines, Columbus Circle, and probably Garnet), but at $48 at Ducasse I think I'd pass.

I realize you said $200 and White, but if you were open to changing gears on both those counts, you might consider looking at the 99 Roumier Bonnes Mares for $300. That retails for about $150 per bottle, (less if you have sources in Europe), but is hard to find and will be really good.

Otherwise I'd look at the reserve list and ask the sommelier for a recommendation in your price range and in a style that suits you. I'd also look at the champagnes on their reserve list to see if they have something from a small grower like Selosse. I've found that good Champagne flatters most foods. Enjoy.

[Beachfan]

I'd dream of the Roumier myself, even though I've never had it and it is young. It's a reasonable price, but I assume if you going to ADNY, you're way beyond worrying about markups.

Marty's Condrieu/Champagne suggestions are good. In California, the Peter Michael Mon Plasir is worth considering. Brewer-Clifton have been getting accolades althought I haven't had the Macella's.

[cabrales]

MartyL and Beachfan -- Thanks I'll report, of course, on the wine selection as well as the cuisine. However, I don't have much experience in describing wine sampled. In the past, I have merely noted the bottle and a very general indication of my level of preference for it. On previous visits to ADNY, a friend selected the wine.

[Brian23]

Anyone know anything about the Guigal Condrie La Doriane ($160)?  I love Condrieu.

The La Dorianne is a really good wine. I just had a bottle of the 1999 from my cellar a few weeks ago. However, its a wine that you can find for about $50 at a good price, so the mark-up is steep.

[cabrales]

Agreed. I don't think that Doraine is at the La Turque/La Landonne/La Mouline (spelling) level.

[cabrales]

MartyL and Beachfan -- Thanks I'll report, of course, on the wine selection as well as the cuisine. However, I don't have much experience in describing wine sampled.

MartyL and Beachfan -- A 1996 Mersault Perrieres from Roulot was ordered ($200). Another example of white wine being decanted; still young, but a decent accompaniment for my turbot and lobster dishes. Not an ideal pairing with the sea urchin veloute and royale, but passable. A glass of Ducasse label champagne (there was also Pommery, non-Louise, and another producer) and a glass of white Burgundy-based dessert wine ($50/glass) contributed to the bill. The cuisine was not particularly good.

[cabrales]

I'd appreciate some input on what type of single bottle (or 1/2 bottle), leaving aside the cheese plate, would go well with the below menu soon to be taken in at Waterside Inn, UK. The restaurant's wine list is fairly large selection-wise, but expensive. White burgundies in particular would be of interest.

A related, but separate, question is what type of wine would enhance the lobster with a white port sauce.

Below are the expected contents of the Menu of Reflection (Pounds 76):

Soupe de moules aux diamants de sole (Mussel soup with "diamonds" of sole)

Escalope de foie gras au citrus (Escalope of foie gras with citrus)

Tronçonnette de homard poêlée minute au Porto Blanc (Pan fried lobster medallion with a white port sauce and ginger flavoured vegetable julienne)

Médaillon de veau voilé de parmesan, au parfum de sauge (Veal medallions with parmesan and sage)

Tierce de fromages (Three cheeses)

Soufflé chaud aux framboises (Raspberry soufflé)

[pirate]

Seems like a very boring cliche'ed menu. Among white burgundies, I like the Meursaults produced by the young newcomer Fichet which are relatively inexpensive. I myself would get a bottle of Aligote' for

everything . If you're willing to venture away from French wines, Lugana from Italy's Lake Garda is a wonderful wine with food. Also Gruener Veltliner from Austria.

[LaNiña]

Why boring? If the food is prepared wonderfully, it will be wonderful food, no?

[pirate]

I agree with you but with Cabrales many postings it seems to me that she prefers what I term

"Grand Complication" (apologies to Swiss watchmakers for the terminology) cuisine.

[cabrales]

pirate -- When you have a chance, could you consider discussing your perceptions (only if you would like to do so, to be clear)?

[LaNiña]

I agree with you but with Cabrales many postings it seems to me that she prefers what I term

"Grand Complication" (apologies to Swiss watchmakers for the terminology) cuisine.

Then what did you mean by boring, if you agree with me? And what is "cliche'ed" about it? Excellently executed food is excellently executed food. Classic cuisine, when artfully prepared, is a marvelous thing. Please clarify.

[Beachfan]

I'd appreciate some input on what type of single bottle (or 1/2 bottle), leaving aside the cheese plate, would go well with the below menu soon to be taken in at Waterside Inn, UK. The restaurant's wine list is fairly large selection-wise, but expensive. White burgundies in particular would be of interest.

A related, but separate, question is what type of wine would enhance the lobster with a white port sauce.

Below are the expected contents of the Menu of Reflection (Pounds 76):

Soupe de moules aux diamants de sole (Mussel soup with "diamonds" of sole)

Escalope de foie gras au citrus (Escalope of foie gras with citrus)

Tronçonnette de homard poêlée minute au Porto Blanc (Pan fried lobster medallion with a white port sauce and ginger flavoured vegetable julienne)

Médaillon de veau voilé de parmesan, au parfum de sauge (Veal medallions with parmesan and sage)

Tierce de fromages (Three cheeses)

Soufflé chaud aux framboises (Raspberry soufflé)

If it already has a white port sauce, that would rule out quite a few wines. An Alsation Riesling would be very nice. I just had the Schoffit Riesling 1997 Rangen du Thann and it was outstanding.

[cabrales]

Beachfan -- Could you clarify which wines would be ruled out?

[pirate]

I like classic cuisine. But try to find it in major European cities at name restaurants. Personally

I have found the best classic French cooking in Tokyo (Cabrales seems to think only sashimi and sushi are of interest in Japan). Obviously this is based on my experience. One instance that comes to mind

is the following: About half a dozen years ago, because a female friend wanted to attend an Escoffier cooking class at the Ritz in Paris, I went along. The chef demonstrated a classic dish Oeufs Meurette. Actually at that time I had never eaten it. It seemed too simple. It turned out to be delicious. I remarked to the chef that I wished L'Espadon served dishes as carefully made and as good as that. In any case a couple of years ago I lunched at one of my favorites in Tokyo, Cam Chien Grippe' (Yes, the dog with the grip!) and they had it on the menu. It was perfectly made. By the way one reads that ADPA serves herb tea with fresh herbs. Cam Chien Grippe' has always done that and it's delicious. Cam Chien Grippe' baked their own bread. It was so good that they opened a bakery abot 500 meters away with a broader range. Rather pricey but impeccable products. The sucess of Hiramatsu in Paris is

another indication of my contention.

Getting back to dining at the Waterside Inn, based on my experience at La Gavroche, I wouldn't bother to go. To quote Louis Jourdan in "Gigi" "It's a bore"

[cabrales]

I would say that WI has its own commendable qualities -- a certain classicism and, when Michel Roux used to be chef-patron at least, relative consistency (not that certain other restaurants in/around London, such as Gordon Ramsay RHR, were not consistent). The desserts are generally rather strong, reflecting the patissier training of the Rouxs; the environment by the river is rather nice. The service is excellent. I wouldn't prefer more than two or three restaurants in/around London (GR RHR, La Tante Claire) to WI.

Note that, with Alain Roux as chef/patron, the cuisine style of WI might be in the process of changing. This is discussed in a thread on the UK board.

On French cuisine in Tokyo, I do not speak about it because I have no meaningful experience in which to ground my views. I'd have to say that, in spite of my lack of understanding in this regard, I'd find it difficult to imagine that French cuisine in Tokyo would, subjectively relative to my tastes, exceed the quality of the best French restaurants in France.

Finally, on simplicity, I agree that it's a trait that, when well implemented, can spur outstanding cuisine.

[Beachfan]

Beachfan -- Could you clarify which wines would be ruled out? 

I'd think Chardonnay based wines would be difficult to appreciate with a white port sauce.

[cabrales]

I'm considering going to Clio again, and noticed some interesting bottles with reasonable mark-ups, in order of subjective declining attractiveness:

Chassagne Montraachet "Boudriotte" 1996, Ramonet $90

White Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Beaucastel 1995, $75

Pouilly Fume "Pur Sang", D Dagueneau $85

http://www.cliorestaurant.com/

(Choose "Menus" on left-hand-side)

[MartyL]

Chassagne Montraachet "Boudriotte" 1996, Ramonet $90

White Chateauneuf-du-Pape, Beaucastel 1995, $75

Pouilly Fume "Pur Sang", D Dagueneau $85

Good choices. I'd go with either one of the first two.