Culinary Tourism Standards in British Columbia

[jamiemaw]

In the topic originally dedicated to discussion of the newly opened Watermark restaurant on Kits Beach, a number of members asked of the relative importance of tourism-heavy restaurants; the quality of food being served; and, ultimately, why big box view rooms often seem lacking.

The following remarks (thank you barolo) were articulate and I think representative of most of the discussion and questions being raised, each of which really relates not to any one particular restaurant, but rather to the bigger picture of culinary tourism:

1.  We "need" it to be excellent?  More excellent than the Stanley Park restaurants or Bridges Bistro or the restaurants at the corner of Davie and Denman or the one on the top of Grouse Mountain?  There's a ton of tourist-oriented view restaurants in Vancouver, I can't see Watermark as the one that makes or breaks our reputation.   Yes, they are all sub-par, but does anyone seriously look at the menu at Watermark, Bridges or any of those places and expect anything more than middle of the road food.  A person seriously interested in food isn't going to go to one of these places in the first place unless he or she hasn't done homework. 

2. Cruise ship food isn't exactly stellar, somehow I think it will be pretty easy to tweak the Watermark menu to please the average cruise ship passenger.  Based on my admittedly limited experience on cruise ships,  I don't see the average passenger as being overly food oriented.  As far as I could see, they appreciate steaks, ceasar salads and other menu "standards" and large portions.

←

I just wanted to get things rolling by stating a few tidbits . . .

1. As tourism agencies tire of regaling visiting journalists with tales of muscular scenery and sedentary assets such as art galleries and museums, culinary tourism has become one of the largest growth (ergo, promotional) sectors of our tourism sector. One need look no farther than the promotion of Dine Out Vancouver, and the Okanagan and Cowichan valleys etc.

2. After accomodation, the next largest 'spend' for many vistors is on food and dining. Some cities, such as Las Vegas (which has no discenible culinary provenance other than meat leathers and buffeterias) have headily capitalized on this fact.

3. Culinary tourists are growing more sophisticated by the minute. As barolo rightly argues, many do their homework (here and elsewhere) before parting with their dining dollars. For instance, many cruise visitors (and here I depart from barolo's argument) choose their cruise line (Celebrity--with Michel Roux, Crystal etc.) specifically for its food program. They rightly expect the same of our restaurants, especially with extended stay packages now being so aggressively marketed.

4. The international culinary spotlight is increasingly being shone--often for good reason--on Vancouver's ability to provide enthusiastic service, and interesting and diverse food at inexpensive prices. Expect that light to brighten in the lead-up to the Olympics.

So, to throw the discussion open, how good an overall job do you think BC does in feeding our visitors? And do you think, as barolo lightheartedly suggested, that steaks and Caesar salads are sufficient reason to come back? Do you think that our big box restaurants (especially those on city or federal leases) could be doing a better job in living up to their views? What would you do to improve them? And finally, if you don't like those spots--many of which drive the highest sales in the province--what would it take to lure you back?

One that clearly didn't think they were doing a sufficient job--with both tourists and locals--by the way, is Joe Fortes. After extensive customer research they've undergone a quiet but remarkable renovation of physical plant, menus and staff training. Result: Sales are up a reported 25%.

On the other hand, perhaps we should just let them eat cake.

Edited August 16, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[Andrew Morrison]

And finally, do you think that our big box restaurants (especially those on city or federal leases) could be doing a better job in living up to their views?

Almost by definition, yes, but the WHY is more elusive. How do you solve the larger mystery: the disconnect between food quality with the quality of the setting? I've always thought that with a kickass view you'd aim for kickass everything else.

Edited August 16, 2005 by editor@waiterblog (log)

[gerald]

Hi Guys;

the catch 22 of the restaurant business in vancouver has reared its ugly head

QUOTE

And finally, do you think that our big box restaurants (especially those on city or federal leases) could be doing a better job in living up to their views?

Almost by definition, yes, but the WHY is more elusive. How do you solve the larger mystery: the disconnect between food quality with the quality of the setting? I've always thought that with a kickass view you'd aim for kickass everything else.

This post has been edited by editor@waiterblog: Today, 01:09 AM

A big problem in vancouver is the price points. When one goes to a restaurant and has a fantastic meal then blanches at the price of the bill, that is where the disconnect comes in. The flipside of that is the restauranteur that charges top level prices and underperforms (to take adavantage of the tourists or hit hard and early then move on to the next hot joint crowd) We in Vancouver do not undersand how underpriced the top restaurants are. Unfortunately, when a restaurant does open with price that is in line with the experience more often than not the majority of the locals will not go by virtue of price. Further if that restaurant does not utilize a crackerjack pr person (come on, back to this again) the potential is there to fall by the wayside.

That is not to say that we don't have some fantastic restaurants at great values, however what I have seen and experienced hes generally been a situation where the pricepoint to have both the service and food at a top level is rarely connected.

Jamie I'm going to Las Vegas on a stag next week where can I pick up some meat leathers.

[jamiemaw]

Hi Guys;

Jamie I'm going to Las Vegas on a stag next week where can I pick up some meat leathers.    

←

At The Showgirls' Retirement Home. Or The Bunny Ranch if you can afford the gas.

Edited August 16, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[jamiemaw]

Hi Guys;

A big problem in vancouver is the price points. When one goes to a restaurant and has a fantastic meal then blanches at the price of the bill, that is where the disconnect comes in. 

←

Gerald,

i agree. There's very little room in Vancouver cooking for some volume houses to seemingly go beyond the lack of ram/rosemary demi and grilled red pepper school of destination cooking. In fact the dependence on grills in BC big boxes is alarming.

But perhaps there are saving graces in more wok-fired dishes but especially in sous vide, which allows consistency, punched-up flavour and lower labour costs, especially on the finish. The initial investment in Cryovac and water baths is significant, but hardly a killer.

Amanda Hesser had a well written article on sous vide in the NYT Magazine on Sunday. In addition to its use in restaurants such as Per Se and The French Laundry, it also discussed its likely impact on higher volume food prep such as airlines and catering. Oceanside redemption?

Edited August 16, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[barolo]

I thought you'd challenge me on the cruise ship comment, Jamie. Of course, there are cruise lines and passengers that focus on food. But I'd wager that they are in the minority. I'm not arguing that we should ignore them or discount their importance, just recognize that many tourists - and locals - are perfectly content with mediocre food, a drink and a great view at a reasonable price. I noted in your comments about Watermark that many of your exit interviewees were pretty happy with their experience, including the food.

Price point does matter, to locals and to many tourists. I had that experience recently with visitors - we were constantly looking for relatively inexpensive places with a variety of foods that would appeal to the multi-generational nature of the group and, of course, showcased Vancouver's natural beauty. The big-box (good label, by the way) restaurants mostly do a good job of dealing with this type of group. In fact one of my guests specifically requested a return to Bridges because of a good experience with a large group on a previous visit. We had a pretty good meal. I wouldn't choose to go to Bridges Bistro normally because I save my limited dining out dollars for a different kind of experience, but it worked well for the group as a whole. I think a visitor could do much worse.

Of course I'd be much happier if we had more restaurants with food as beautiful as the view. But how many of them would be sustainable through the winter months? I don't have the knowledge of restaurant financing and operations to do more than speculate but it seems to me that there is a real juggling act of pricing vs quality to succeed in Vancouver.

I read the article on the Joe Fortes makeover in BC Business and found it an interesting read. That type of upgrading or refreshing seems like a viable and business savvy option for many of our long-time stalwarts in Vancouver.

I would like to see the Parks Board take a more active interest in the quality of the food offerings on Park lands - I mean the concessions as well as the restaurants.

Edited August 16, 2005 by barolo (log)

[jtcookie]

Price point does matter, to locals and to many tourists.  I had that experience recently with visitors - we were constantly looking for relatively inexpensive places with a variety of foods that would appeal to the multi-generational nature of the group and, of course, showcased Vancouver's natural beauty.  The big-box (good label, by the way) restaurants mostly do a good job of dealing with this type of group.  In fact one of my guests specifically requested a return to Bridges because of a good experience with a large group on a previous visit.  We had a pretty good meal.  I wouldn't choose to go to Bridges Bistro normally because I save my limited dining out dollars for a different kind of experience, but it worked well for the group as a whole. I think a visitor could do much worse.

I would like to see the Parks Board take a more active interest in the quality of the food offerings on Park lands - I mean the concessions as well as the restaurants.

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We had exactly the same experience this summer - looking for multi-generational dining for visitors - and did quite well for views without having to dine with all the tourists flocking into the "view properties". The exception was Bridges Bistro, where the meal, service and ambience was certainly good value for our food dollars. It seemed to me there were loads of locals lining up for a seat; certainly outnumbering the tourists from where I sat.

High seating capacity, multi-turns per shift, higher than the already atmospheric rents for view location, the seasonality aspect and Vancouver's lack of culinary tradition and heritage amongst the front- and back-of-house staff all conspire against great food in our "big box" properties. Until such time as owners and investors are prepared to dedicate more acreage to back-of-house, and not squeeze a table into every last inch of floor, food and service will continue to underwhelm. Are there any willing to take out an extra row of tables so as to allow the kitchen staff room to move and work their magic? Apparently not, as long as the price point remains accessable to locals. Can owners afford to hike their prices? Not without losing a fair chunk of their local fan base off-seaon. See gerald's Catch-22 below!

Coming from the kitchen end of things, I always felt it incongruous that we expent so much sweat and talent on the food and its canvas, all the time playing second fiddle to the bloody scenery!

I would hate to have the Parks Board at any way involved with the food establishments on its property. Catering by committee is guaranteed to piss the professionals right off, and its their hard won clientele that suffers. The landlord should make sure that services are in places (gas, hydro etc) and the property is presentable. Otherwise, stay the hell away!

If, however, the Parks Board is looking to appoint a Food and Beverage Inspector, who might I send my resume to?!

John

[barolo]

I would hate to have the Parks Board at any way involved with the food establishments on its property. Catering by committee is guaranteed to piss the professionals right off, and its their hard won clientele that suffers. The landlord should make sure that services are in places (gas, hydro etc) and the property is presentable. Otherwise, stay the hell away!

If, however, the Parks Board is looking to appoint a Food and Beverage Inspector, who might I send my resume to?!

John

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Fair comment - but how, short of appointing you Food and Beverage Inspector, do we get better concessions in the Parks?!?!

[jamiemaw]

Price point does matter, to locals and to many tourists.  I had that experience recently with visitors - we were constantly looking for relatively inexpensive places with a variety of foods that would appeal to the multi-generational nature of the group and, of course, showcased Vancouver's natural beauty.  The big-box (good label, by the way) restaurants mostly do a good job of dealing with this type of group. 

Of course I'd be much happier if we had more restaurants with food as beautiful as the view.  But how many of them would be sustainable through the winter months?  I don't have the knowledge of restaurant financing and operations to do more than speculate but it seems to me that there is a real juggling act of pricing vs quality to succeed in Vancouver. 

←

Fair enough, barolo, but I would argue that many of the big boxes charge prices only just below or even at the average cheque of fine dining rooms. Many charge protein entrees in the $25 (poultry) to $45 (surf and turf) range--hardly a bargain. Just look at how hard you had to scratch your head to combine view, food and relative economy (excuse me)--and you chose well.

But I'd maintain that the juggling act of pricing versus quality--as Joe Fortes has recently rediscovered--is not as complex as it might appear. It's really a rather gentle leap of faith, or in the case of restaurants such as Go Fish (which does it year-round without booze), belief.

Second, if the quality of food was better on average in these rooms with a view, does it not follow that they might be more popular with locals off-season? Seems Bud Kanke, Darren and Frenchie have become converts.

A couple of postcards from the ocean of love . . .

1. In a recent letter to the editor, a friend of the managing director of a major new big box called called the flashy room “a real estate deal cleverly disguised as a restaurant.”

2. Two years ago several big box destination chefs and I patrolled the city. They'd asked me to show them what I regard as ‘Best in Show’ menu items, i.e: the city’s best squid, chicken, lamb and salmon dishes etc. In other words, stuff that they could replicate in their own kitchens. So off we went, to Phnom Penh, Villa del Lupo, Cioppino’s Enoteca, and elsewhere. They liked what they tasted. A lot. They took copious notes.

You might think that this would have been a joyous evening—eating the very best the city has to offer. But after a few stops, the mood in the van turned glum, even dark. Then one of the chefs actually burst into tears. When I asked what the matter was, she said that but for a couple more per cent on her food cost budget, that she thought she could accurately replicate these flavours.

But that simply wasn’t going to happen, she explained; she felt doomed to a life of pre-grilled red peppers and zucchini discs, portion-cut salmon fillets and bombastic desserts.

I think that sous vide is going to knock this category on its ear--the biggest revolution in large scale cookery since Escoffier lit his stove at the Savoy.

[Foodie in Vancouver]

Jamie:

I think I know what sous vide is - the pouches that you place in a hot water bath? But can you help me understand how it is going to "change everything"? (And correct me if I don't understand sous vide) Thanks

[jamiemaw]

Jamie:

I think I know what sous vide is - the pouches that you place in a hot water bath? But can you help me understand how it is going to "change everything"? (And correct me if I don't understand sous vide) Thanks

←

Yes, Karole. First the pressure of crovacking can be manipulated to change texture, intensify flavour by imbuing marinades more quickly, or simply (and this is the application for large scale catering and three ring binder restaurants) allowing almost perfect consistency with intensive flavouring.

Here's an explanatory article that examines the many applications of sous vide cookery and its apostles.

You've probably already done it by taking a quart of rosemary, garlic, lemon, thyme, oil and pepper up to the butcher and asking him to pour it into the Cryovacked butterflied leg of lamb. Now try searing the lamb first, then marinating (less quantity) and veryslowly poaching instead of grilling. Amazing.

Edited August 17, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[barolo]

But I'd maintain that the juggling act of pricing versus quality--as Joe Fortes has recently rediscovered--is not as complex as it might appear. It's really a rather gentle leap of faith, or in the case of restaurants such as Go Fish (which does it year-round without booze), belief.

Second, if the quality of food was better on average in these rooms with a view, does it not follow that they might be more popular with locals off-season? Seems Bud Kanke, Darren and Frenchie have become converts.

I think that sous vide is going to knock this category on its ear--the biggest revolution in large scale cookery since Escoffier lit his stove at the Savoy.

←

I agree that the Joe Fortes experience was instructive. And since I know next to nothing about restaurant operations and costing, I couldn't develop an argument to the contrary even if I wanted to.

I will be interested to see how this sous vide revolution plays out in Vancouver. I think West is the only place I've had something cooked sous vide, or at least it's the only place that was explicit about it. Is sous vide being used relatively widely now in upper end restaurants here?

[jamiemaw]

I think that sous vide is going to knock this category on its ear--the biggest revolution in large scale cookery since Escoffier lit his stove at the Savoy.

←

I agree that the Joe Fortes experience was instructive. And since I know next to nothing about restaurant operations and costing, I couldn't develop an argument to the contrary even if I wanted to.

I will be interested to see how this sous vide revolution plays out in Vancouver. I think West is the only place I've had something cooked sous vide, or at least it's the only place that was explicit about it. Is sous vide being used relatively widely now in upper end restaurants here?

←

No, Anne, it's not widely pracyiced yet, and you have to chuckle a bit at some of the big new kitchens that have been recently built without the equipment required. David Hawksworth and Rob Feenie are experimenting, from what I know, however slow poaching in oil (especially seafood) is still much more prevalent here. At home, watch for the new sous vide station--sort of like that wok man option of a few years ago.

Edited August 17, 2005 by jamiemaw (log)

[gerald]

Jamie

I agree sous vide cooking is a great way integrate flavours and control costs. Movenpick Canada was doing it in 90-91 to help control costs without sacrificing flavour (in both their mainstream and their high end restaurants, unfortunately more often than not most chefs consider it taboo (lean cusine circa 1988). One of the things they really excelled at was bulk buys (ie basil before the price goes crazy) and making enough "fresh" pesto to take us through the winter.

One prep chef 8 hours all the sauce you need for a month, sounds (dare I say it) efficient.

Thanks for the tip about the bunny ranch, but after a couple of days of debauchery in vegas (see very bad things) the only gas available is a type that won't run car (but of course it will make people run to their cars)

[Foodie in Vancouver]

Thanks Jamie. Very interesting. Are any kitchens in Vancouver doing sous vide?

[Matt R.]

You've probably already done it by taking a quart of rosemary, garlic, lemon, thyme, oil and pepper up to the butcher and asking him to pour it into the Cryovacked butterflied leg of lamb. Now try searing the lamb first, then marinating (less quantity) and veryslowly poaching instead of grilling. Amazing.

←

This seems like a bit of a problem for large, commercial plants. There is an increased risk of botulism here that is very real, and very serious. The idea of letting raw garlic and olive oil rest in an anaerobic environment, then cooking for 8 hours @ 200 f gives me the shivers.

There are two chains that I know of that forbid Cryovac'd food, as well as a large hotel chain.

-- Matt.

[jamiemaw]

You've probably already done it by taking a quart of rosemary, garlic, lemon, thyme, oil and pepper up to the butcher and asking him to pour it into the Cryovacked butterflied leg of lamb. Now try searing the lamb first, then marinating (less quantity) and veryslowly poaching instead of grilling. Amazing.

←

This seems like a bit of a problem for large, commercial plants. There is an increased risk of botulism here that is very real, and very serious. The idea of letting raw garlic and olive oil rest in an anaerobic environment, then cooking for 8 hours @ 200 f gives me the shivers.

There are two chains that I know of that forbid Cryovac'd food, as well as a large hotel chain.

-- Matt.

←

Have a read of the article, Matt, and then see what you think. And you would actually cook at considerably less than 200 degrees F with zero loss of life! Thus far that is.

[transfattyacid]

Does every waterfront restuarant have to serve bacon made from octupi ?

If they did what effect would that have on the tourists perception of dinning here ?

I`m quite fond of the pig variety.

I`ll leave that one open

Is the bar too high ?

Or does it depends on who`s setting it

We ( and by that i mean egulleters ) are not your average punter, yes we are trying to keep guard of the high ground, but this thread, and it`s sister thread on the topic of Watermark seems to me as futile as a bmw driver Criticising the local bus service.

complacency empathy

Your average tourist punter WILL be having a great ol` time here, if for no other reason than he / she is on holiday. when it comes to having something to eat that average tourist punter will be spoilt for choice, and like a rabbit in the headlights will head for safety. So where`s safe round here then ? Earls..?... yeah probably there`s a menu with something for every one at Earls a menu with real words on it and a dollar value that speaks the language of most. and i aint ever had a bad meal there .

So lets use earls as a bench mark . If there was a branch of Earls on kits beach would you still moan ?

Would you still question the culinary standards of tourist driven restaurants ?

If you ventured into a more independent / higher end restaurant and paid double for your meal would the experience be twice as good ?

Are we affraid that these people may not be that bothered about the culinary details that we are so uptight about , and would be more than happy with a ceasar salad , steak frites, a bottle of red and maybe some ice cream for afters, as long as the veiw out the window is different to the one they spend looking at for the rest of the year ?.

gourmand empathy

Ok so we win straight of the bat if our gourmand is used to spending pounds sterling.

or if he / she is used to shopping for a good dinner in New York, Paris , Milan , Ludlow and London. As even the highest of high end price points in this city does not reflect what they are about to enjoy.

Our gourmand will have done some homework and got the restaurants sussed out and booked. and will no doubt be wondering why no other waterfront restaurants serves bacon born from octupi.

Are we affraid that these people will expect the world on a plate and a view to match, pushing up the price points out of the grasp of the locals, who used to cherish the details that they are so uptight about , and would be more than happy with a chance to dine in those places that are now no hope for a table, even if it means eating ceasar salads, steak frites and a bottle of red and maybe some ice cream for afters for the rest of the year ?.

Is the bar too high ?

Or does it depends on who`s setting it

Edited August 17, 2005 by transfattyacid (log)

[barolo]

Are we affraid that these people will expect the world on a plate and a view to match, pushing up the price points out of the grasp of the locals, who used to cherish the details that they are so uptight about , and would be more than happy with a chance to dine in those places that are now no hope for a table, even if it means eating ceasar salads, steak frites and a bottle of red and maybe some ice cream for afters  for the rest of the year ?. 

Is the bar too high ?

Or does it depends on who`s setting it

←

Yes, I do worry about this.

[barolo]

Jamie:

I think I know what sous vide is - the pouches that you place in a hot water bath? But can you help me understand how it is going to "change everything"? (And correct me if I don't understand sous vide) Thanks

←

Yes, Karole. First the pressure of crovacking can be manipulated to change texture, intensify flavour by imbuing marinades more quickly, or simply (and this is the application for large scale catering and three ring binder restaurants) allowing almost perfect consistency with intensive flavouring.

Here's an explanatory article that examines the many applications of sous vide cookery and its apostles.

←

I like this Slate article too: The Slowest Food . It is a little more straighforward and less focussed on personalities.

[Matt R.]

This seems like a bit of a problem for large, commercial plants. There is an increased risk of botulism here that is very real, and very serious. The idea of letting raw garlic and olive oil rest in an anaerobic environment, then cooking for 8 hours @ 200 f gives me the shivers.

There are two chains that I know of that forbid Cryovac'd food, as well as a large hotel chain.

-- Matt.

←

Have a read of the article, Matt, and then see what you think. And you would actually cook at considerably less than 200 degrees F with zero loss of life! Thus far that is.

←

[jamiemaw]

1. Does every waterfront restuarant have to serve bacon made from octupi ?

If they did what effect would that have on the tourists perception of dinning here ?

I`m quite fond of the pig variety.

I`ll leave that one open

2. Is the bar too high ?

Or does it depends on who`s setting it

We ( and by that i mean egulleters ) are not your average punter, yes we are trying to keep guard of the high ground, but this thread, and it`s sister thread on the topic of Watermark seems to me as futile as a bmw driver Criticising the local bus service.

complacency empathy

Your average tourist punter WILL be having a great ol` time here, if for no other reason than he / she is on holiday. when it comes to having something to eat that average tourist punter will be spoilt for choice, and like a rabbit in the headlights will head for safety. So where`s safe round here then ? Earls..?... yeah probably there`s a menu with something for every one at Earls a menu with real words on it and a dollar value that speaks the language of most. and i aint ever had a bad meal there .

So lets use earls as a bench mark . 3. If there was a branch of Earls on kits beach would you still moan ?

←

1. At first I thought that more of us should be smoking the brand of octopi that you are. But seriously, you bring up some great points, TFA.

2. I don't think that we raise the bar too highly at all, especially given that some of the best food available on the oceanside is being pushed out of a trailer and without benefit of a liquor license. Further, the pricing at Nu looks to be pretty reasonable and I think you'll find the room accessible and the food to be of high quality. Of course, it's the marketplace that sets the bar.

3. It's entirely likely that there will be an Earls on the Beach fairly shortly. Then we'll see.

[transfattyacid]

At first I thought that more of us should be smoking the brand of octopi that you are

i wholeheartedly agree.

given that some of the best food available on the oceanside is being pushed out of a trailer and without benefit of a liquor license.

i wholeheartedly agree.

[Zucchini Mama]

Read the article about sous vide-and it gave me the creeps. 1) Heated plastic =PCB's and a plastic taste in the food. Memories of my mother microwaving food with plastic wrap on top which dissolves and drips into the food. Yechhh! 2) There's something creepy about not being able to smell the food cooking. When I bake something and it reaches a certain point, I can tell it's done by the way it smells. A room full of food you can't smell while it's cooking-well it could be undercooked soylent green for all you know.

Regarding the gastro-tourism in Vancouver or Ludlow or anywhere-it's all about local knowledge.

If you have the information, then you'll know where to go. I travel in order to eat the local specialties. I also play at being a tourist in my own city and can't figure out why cheap martini night watching the sunset go down at Ocean 6 Seventeen isn't totally packed out- but then as soon as a place gets too trendy, I tend to stay away, so I'm NOT complaining!

I really hate feeling like I'm being herded in and out of a place as efficiently as possible in order to pay for the hefty real estate bill. It's insulting, and not worth any of my pennies.

Edited to add: Had the Moroccan-spiced buffalo shortribs on polenta the other night at OCean 6 Seventeen, which were quite good. They need a good rosé or two on their wine menu though.

Zuke

Edited August 18, 2005 by Zucchini Mama (log)