Question about Riesling

[wannabechef]

Hey everyone - quick question about riesling. I just came back from dinner at a relatively fancy NYC restaurant - one not really well known (as far as I know) for their wine list. In any case, I did something tonight which I've never done before - sent a wine back (just a glass - not a whole bottle).

I ordered a glass of riesling - it MAY have been Ürziger Würzgarten, 2002, Germany. The waiter came over and didn't show me the label, just poured a glass and left. I tasted it and noticed that it tasted bubbly - almost sparkling or fermented. I'm a wine newbie, but I've had riesling before and never experienced this.

I called the waiter over and expressed my concern. He scoffed at me, said it smelled fine and thats how its supposed to taste. He did offer me a different wine instead which is what I would expect from any half decent place. I'm happy with the service, but I'm really curious if its possible it really was supposed to taste like that. Do rieslings ever have a bubbly or sparkling texture? He even told me he tasted it after he took the bottle away and that it was supposed to be like that. He also said that usually riesling is a desert or after diner wine. I was having it with fish which usually goes great.

Anyway, what words do you fellow e-Gulleters have for me?

Thanks!

~WBC

[Adam Balic]

Wine with fine bubbles that stick to the inside of the glass and give a slight prickle on the tongue are refered to as "Pétillant", "Pearling' or "spritzig". Spritzig is more like what you describe, it is sometimes considered a fault, but isn't really harmful to the wine (unless you realy hate bubbles). It's relatively common with riesling wines.

I wouldn't agree that "riesling is a desert or after diner wine" though. It can be and make some of the best of these wines, but Riesling comes in many styles.

[Florida Jim]

He scoffed at me, . . .

I agree with Adam but would add that a waiter who "scoffs" or is otherwise condescending to me will see such behavior reflected in his tip. Everybody has a bad day, but that kind of reaction in that kind of setting will not do.

Best, Jim

Edited June 22, 2005 by Florida Jim (log)

[Brad Ballinger]

There are a number of issues here, all lightly touched upon.

1. The waiter poured you a glass without showing you the label. Sometimes wines by the glass are poured at the bar, and you trust the establishment to pour the correct wine. But if the waiter brought the bottle to the table to pour, he should've showed you the label. Bad, bad waiter.

2. The waiter scoffed. All he did was contribute to the perception that wine isn't for everyone. He didn't use it as an oppotunity to educate, but an opportunity to condescend. Bad, bad waiter.

3. The waiter commented on smell and taste. Your issue with the wine was texture. He didn't listen to you. Bad, bad waiter.

4. The waiter said it is usually a dessert wine or after dinner wine. Now he's just being ignorant. Riesling, IMO, is one of the better food wines because of the amount of acidity the wines have. While his statement may be more true of the Riesling wines that our parents were served, it's hardly true anymore -- especially unlikely to be true of the wine you ordered.

5. The spritziness or effervescence you experienced. While Adam is correct that it can be a flaw, some German Reisling wines will have a spritzy mouthfeel. This could be the high level of acidity, the residual sugar reacting with some unspent yeast (usually a flaw as Adam describes and could be the case with this bottle if you detected a fermenting quality), or perhaps something else. Your bottle came from the Mosel region where the wines are incredibly crisp and can give the impression of spritziness. Don't be surprised if you have another Riesling at some point with a pin-pricking sensation. That may be okay. My bigger concern would be the fermenting character.

[Megan Blocker]

4.  The waiter said it is usually a dessert wine or after dinner wine.  Now he's just being ignorant.  Riesling, IMO, is one of the better food wines because of the amount of acidity the wines have.  While his statement may be more true of the Riesling wines that our parents were served, it's hardly true anymore -- especially unlikely to be true of the wine you ordered.

←

Agreed! Any waiter (or anyone) who says that Riesling is only a dessert wine is grossly mistaken.

[wannabechef]

Thanks for the great and informative replies everybody. So - it looks like I could've been wrong in the fact that there was nothing really wrong with wine.

Now a further question about etiquette. Looking back, was it still acceptable to send back the wine even though it may be just because I was ignorant? Let's say this was a whole bottle even. A patron tastes the wine and thinks its bad - but really just doesn't know how it's supposed to taste. What is the etiquette from both the establishment's and the customer's perspective?

I'm sure this is the kind of thing restaurants face often.

Oh also, going back to the "spritzig" of the wine - I assume that there are some wines where if you detected that quality - it would in fact mean the wine was bad. So how can you know if the wine is bad or not? Is it just a matter of experience? Are there any red wines that have a bubbly texture?

Thanks again everyone...

~WBC

[Rebel Rose]

If a wine is not what you expected, it's perfectly all right to ask the staff about it. As Brad pointed out, a knowledgeable staffperson should be happy to explain and educate. If the staffperson is ignorant, or as in this case, scoffs, don't feel bad about sending the wine back.

Spritziness is sometimes encountered in white wines like rieslings and gewurztraminers, but any spritziness in a red wine is a flaw. Bad, bad wine!

[melkor]

Spritziness is sometimes encountered in white wines like rieslings and gewurztraminers, but any spritziness in a red wine is a flaw. Bad, bad wine!

Unless its a lambrusco or a handful of other oddball reds.

[Brad Ballinger]

Thanks for the great and informative replies everybody. So - it looks like I could've been wrong in the fact that there was nothing really wrong with wine.

Now a further question about etiquette. Looking back, was it still acceptable to send back the wine even though it may be just because I was ignorant? Let's say this was a whole bottle even.  A patron tastes the wine and thinks its bad - but really just doesn't know how it's supposed to taste. What is the etiquette from both the establishment's and the customer's perspective?

I'm sure this is the kind of thing restaurants face often.

Oh also, going back to the "spritzig" of the wine - I assume that there are some wines where if you detected that quality - it would in fact mean the wine was bad. So how can you know if the wine is bad or not? Is it just a matter of experience? Are there any red wines that have a bubbly texture?

Thanks again everyone...

~WBC

←

Regarding ettiquette, I may choose the words customer service instead. There are varying schools of thought on the issue you raise. One school is that even if there is nothing technically wrong with the wine, the restaurant should replace it anyway. But, if I were serving, I would steer you toward a different selection and not another bottle of the same wine if there was nothing wrong with it other than you simply not liking it. Another school would charge you for the wine. Another yet, would work out something in between, such as charge you for the wine with the greater cost, or give you half off, or something else. Those in the hospitality biz can add more here.

If you received help from the server or sommelier in your selection, I think the restaurant is more on the hook for you not liking an otherwise non-flawed bottle than if you went it alone. The main thing, though, is that the restaurant wants you to come back (with the exception of those customers who aren't worth the hassle -- but this doesn't sound like you).

Regarding the spritz. Without tasting the wine, I can't say if it was flawed or not. But, as I mentioned above, I'd be more concerned about the fermenting quality in terms of taste than a pin-prick to the texture. And, if there is an obvious mousse (equivalent to "head" when referring to beer) to what is supposed to be a still (non-sparkling) wine, then it is likely flawed.

[JohnL]

I think that regardless of the wine's condition, if you are not happy with it --the restaurant should replace it with something else. Especially given that you only ordered a by the glass.

Many wine friendly restaurants will pour you a sip of wine to see if you like it before pouring a full glass.

The waiter's conduct in your case was not very good. I would write a note to the management of the restaurant. It could have been one "bad apple" or a problem with the establishment's wine service.

I also believe that even when dealing with bottles--the customer is always right.

There are exceptions ie. very expensive bottles and/or very old wines--there are many ways to handle problems here.

I(f the waiter indicated that the Riesling was a "desert wine" then I would have asked:

"well why did you serve it to me now, knowing this is not accompanying desert?"

The fact is the waiter had no idea what he was serving (in all liklihood).

It is too bad these kinds of things happen anymore. A bad experience with wine can ruin an otherwise nice experience at a restaurant--and wine problems are so easy to avoid!

[MaxH]

5.  The spritziness or effervescence you experienced.  While Adam is correct that it can be a flaw, some German Reisling wines will have a spritzy mouthfeel.

I agree, I find hints of spritz more often in tasting German wines than others I taste.

(It's worth pointing out that most "flat" beverages, even those without spritzy mouthfeel, have some dissolved gas. It becomes more obvious when you place them in a partial vacuum.)

-- M

[budrichard]

Moselle, Ruwer and especially Saar wines are often 'Spritzig' and one can not only feel the quality in your mouth but actually see the bubbles in the glass. It should not have a foam or mousse like Champagne but be very subtle. It is a very refreshing quality and implies no fault with the wine. Some Rose wines also possess this quality. Since you didnt specify the grade of the Urzsiger, I would assume a Kabinet wine as the quality is rarely evident in spatlese or above. -Dick

[Marmish]

Moselle, Ruwer and especially Saar wines are often 'Spritzig' and one can  not only feel the quality in your mouth but actually see the bubbles in the glass. It should not have a foam or mousse like Champagne but be very subtle. It is a very refreshing quality and implies no fault with the wine. Some Rose wines also possess this quality. Since you didnt specify the grade of the Urzsiger, I would assume a Kabinet wine as the quality is rarely evident in spatlese or above. -Dick

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Can you define and expand upon terms appropriate to Reislings - kabinet, spatlese, auslese, etc.?

[russ parsons]

the shorthand is those are levels of sweetness, but i think "ripeness" may be a little more descriptive.

riesling is still incredibly underrated in this country. this weekend i kicked off the summer dinner party season with a couple of bottles of 1991 spatlese. it was truly a remarkable wine, still fairly fresh, but with definite developed characteristics (old riesling to me smells like pine needles). i bought a bunch of this stuff last year from darrel corti (corti bros. in sacramento) and it was $21 a bottle. can you imagine that?

edit: i almost forgot to add one of the very best things about this wine: 7.5% alcohol. you can drink it on a warm evening and not immediatley go to sleep (something that was distinctly NOT true of the '99 justin zin--15%--that i opened to go with the tri-tip).

Edited June 27, 2005 by russ parsons (log)

[plattetude]

More specifically, these are categories of "Qualitaetswein mit Praedikat" (roughly "quality wine with promise") and are in this order, in order of harvest from earliest to latest:

kabinett

spaetlese

auslese

beerenauslese

trockenbeerenauslese

The last two are typically very high in residual sugar and would designate a wine suitable for dessert.

Other key German vocab for deciphering German: "trocken" and "halbtrocken," which designate "dry" and "semi-dry" respectively. These terms can conceivably apply to any of the above categories, but I think you will see them most frequently on kabinett wines.

Christopher

[MaxH]

More specifically, these are categories of "Qualitaetswein mit Praedikat" (roughly "quality wine with promise") and are in this order, in order of harvest from earliest to latest:

kabinett

spaetlese

auslese

beerenauslese

trockenbeerenauslese

With some further meanings entailing berry selection etc. Note that the legal categories go by "must" weight, commonly. Someone ought to post a reference to a general German-wine intro, or to the doubtless past rehashes of this matter even on this forum.

[Marmish]

Thanks for the clarification.