sodium alginate/calcium chloride

[xdrixn]

do I need to heat either solution?

[tekna]

What are you doing?

[Sebastian]

I assume trying to form a gel. the calcium will complex with the alginate. The alginate can be difficult to get into soluntion, you're likely to have better luck heating the water, but it's not an absolute requirement.

[chefette]

Interesting as I was just reading a couple of fascinating articles about gums and gelling agents yesterday. They don't talk about calcium chloride, but alginates are popular. Most of the info re calcium salts was in conjunction with gellan and its ability to create viscous pourables that would gell pretty much as soon as you stop the stirring action.

"One of the more interesting synergies, is the one that develops between an alginate and a high-ester pectin. "By using a blend, you can get it to gel under conditions that neither one would ordinarily gel under,". "Normally with a high-ester pectin you would need low pH and high solids. With an alginate, you'll need a calcium source and a higher pH, one above 4." By mixing these together, a gel will form in a pH range lower than needed for an alginate and higher than required for a high-ester pectin (in the 3 to 4 pH range) without the high solids or the calcium ions."

"Alginates are extracted from brown seaweed or kelp. Alginate is made up of the five-carbon polymers mannuronic acid and gluronic acid. In the presence of calcium ions, it forms thermally irreversible gels. The reaction can easily be varied to control speed of set and degree of setting. Alginate gels are heat-resistant and can be prepared at very low solids."

[xdrixn]

is "gellan" a copyright product as in the low and high acyl from cpkelco? what article are you reading? I was just fooling around with fruit purees.

[chefette]

"Microbial polysaccharides produced as microbial exudates include xanthan gum, curdlan and gellan gum"

" Gellan gum is a gel-forming polysaccharide derived from Pseudomonas elodea. These gels are clear, heat stable, and set quickly with minimal refrigeration"

"Gum systems, particularly with gelling agents such as pectin, gellan, gelatin and carrageenan, tend to provide better flavor release, less masking of flavor, than an equally thick or gelled system based on starch,". "Part of this is due to the lower use levels of gums vs. starches. Gums are generally used in the range of 0.05% to 1.00%, while starches are usually in the 0.75% to 10.0% range. The higher concentration of starches tends to encapsulate or capture flavor molecules more readily than gums."

"NutraSweet Kelco took the Japanese notion several steps further by working with gellan systems that not only maintain their separate textures within a beverage, but also suspend particulates composed of lots of different materials - say, spices or juice pulp pieces, in addition to gellan beads - in the beverage"

The article is waaaaaay beyond foolin around. THIS is research!

http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1999/1299ap.html

[NhumiSD]

"Microbial polysaccharides produced as microbial exudates include xanthan gum, curdlan and gellan gum"

"  Gellan gum is a gel-forming polysaccharide derived from Pseudomonas elodea. These gels are clear, heat stable, and set quickly with minimal refrigeration"

"Gum systems, particularly with gelling agents such as pectin, gellan, gelatin and carrageenan, tend to provide better flavor release, less masking of flavor, than an equally thick or gelled system based on starch,". "Part of this is due to the lower use levels of gums vs. starches. Gums are generally used in the range of 0.05% to 1.00%, while starches are usually in the 0.75% to 10.0% range. The higher concentration of starches tends to encapsulate or capture flavor molecules more readily than gums."

"NutraSweet Kelco took the Japanese notion several steps further by working with gellan systems that not only maintain their separate textures within a beverage, but also suspend particulates composed of lots of different materials - say, spices or juice pulp pieces, in addition to gellan beads - in the beverage"

The article is waaaaaay beyond foolin around.  THIS is research!

http://www.foodproductdesign.com/archive/1999/1299ap.html

←

The alginates, you can heat up to help it dissolve. Take this solution and a dropper and place small droplets into a solution of Calcium Chloride at around 0.25% Calcium Chloride should be good. The calcium solution will gel up the alginates. If you take it out right away, the inside will still be a liquid since Calcium will diffuse in. Leave it longer in the solution, it will be a gelled bead.

You can try suspending this alginate beads in a solution of Gellan at about 0.03% Gellan. Gellan is heat reversible. You can heat it pass its gelling temperature. This depends on the low acyl which has a lower gelling temp. ~75C then high acyl gellan, at ~80C. The low acyl will have a more brittle texture then high acyl which has a more rubbery texture. Hope this helps.

-NhumiSD

[NhumiSD]

is "gellan" a copyright product as in the low and high acyl from cpkelco?  what article are you reading?  I was just fooling around with fruit purees.

←

Yes, CPKelco is the producers of Gellan. Can I ask what you are doing with the fruit purees? Are you trying to use it in place of gelatin?

Just out of curiousiy, would there be a need for a pectin that would not require such high solids? Maybe a pectin that sets at 20% BRIX, so there wouldnt be a need for so much sugar to get high solids?

What would you used with such a pectin ?

-NhumiSD

[xdrixn]

I'm not about to hop on the said chemical reaction but I simply feel as if I should need know hot it works. who knows, maybe I'll use it as a special or something.

[shaunbyers]

I'm not about to hop on the said chemical reaction but I simply feel as if I should need know hot it works.  who knows, maybe I'll use it as a special or something.

←

IM TRING TO MAKE FRUIT CAVIAR USING SODIUN ALLGINATE AND CALCIUM CHLORIDE BUT AM HAVING PROBLEMS GETTING IT TO WORK. CAN ANY ONE HELP.

[WillieLee]

One way to approach it would be to hydrate the alginate with water at approx. 4-8% with a high sheer blender. Then blend the alginate mixture in to your fruit puree at about 8%. Then Make a calcium chloride bath at 1%. (w/ water) Using a pipette drop your fruit solution into the bath and allow to sit for about 10 minutes, then rinse with cold water immediately.

[McDuff]

Or you could buy a couple of cases of Orbitz, if they even make it anymore, and strain the little fruity balls out of it.

[tan319]

We were doing the Alginate thing for awhile in Miami.

We were making the solution as follows.

1 liter water

20 grams Alginate

Immersion blend/no lumps/rest overnight

100 grams Alginate solution to 150 grams flavour/may have to adjust for acid, etc.

The Calcium Cholride solution was 20 grams CC to 1 liter water.

What we did was, because of the volume we needed, was copy the set up that they use(d?) at El Bulli.

If you go to imagegullet, or better yet, do a seach in the Spain forum, you'll find a thread by a stagier from El Bulli, and he has pics of the set up.

Also, I think on starchefs.com, there's a demo/quicktime movie, of them using this setup.

Those plastic dropper type syringes you can get at any pharmacy, as mentioned.

We got a dozen of them and got our steward to build us a holder, ours was made of wood, that had holes drilled for all of our droppers, ala the one the Bulli guys had that looked more official, made of steel, probably a medical type piece.

then another level piece of wood, same size is the platform/dropper holder.

Then we could fill all of our droppers and do dozens at a time, as the CC solution was underneath our droppers as we used the wood platform to push them all at once..

You have to rinse those pellets or raviolis before you use them.

RE: heating the Alginate: We never found it necessary,

[NhumiSD]

You could hit the alginate/water in the microwave a bit. Warming it makes it easier to work with.

I would also suggest stirring ur Calcium bath as you drop your alginates so that they do not clump up, and it makes for well rounded beads.

Please let us know how it came out. Pictures please...

-Nhumi

[nathanm]

You could hit the alginate/water in the microwave a bit.  Warming it makes it easier to work with. 

I would also suggest stirring ur Calcium bath as you drop your alginates so that they do not clump up, and it makes for well rounded beads.

Please let us know how it came out.  Pictures please...

-Nhumi

←

The heating is just to hydrate the alginate, correct? It does not affect the alginate/calcium reaction right, which has to be cold (or anyway below some threshold).

Note also that thre are MANY formulations of alginate with different properties.

[akwa]

You could hit the alginate/water in the microwave a bit.  Warming it makes it easier to work with. 

I would also suggest stirring ur Calcium bath as you drop your alginates so that they do not clump up, and it makes for well rounded beads.

Please let us know how it came out.  Pictures please...

-Nhumi

←

The heating is just to hydrate the alginate, correct? It does not affect the alginate/calcium reaction right, which has to be cold (or anyway below some threshold).

Note also that thre are MANY formulations of alginate with different properties.

←

yes

[tan319]

Heres a link to the site that shows the alginate/cc vid.

http://starchefs.com/events/studio/lo_mejo...mia/index.shtml

Just scroll down until you see the Adria picture box, it's under November 17th, I believe.

Also on the same page is a Paco Torreblanca video demo.

Enjoy!

[Tonyy13]

Hey guys, I know this thread is old, but where can I buy the alginate and the CC here in Florida or on the internet?

Thanks...

TA

[alanamoana]

you can get small amounts from will goldfarb's room4dessert website. their online ordering isn't up yet, but you can e-mail him and he can send it to you. very friendly and reliable.

also, you can order from PCB France. they have the product line which is discussed on the thread in the cooking forum. which also list other sources.

also, chefrubber carries these items as well.

[dejaq]

I just love Marine Hydrocolloids, you may try also the FMC Corp, depending on your needs, they may not sell in a smaller amount, very way cool stuff, tinkered with it over twenty years ago, as Spock used to say "Facinating"

M

[nathanm]

There are several good guides to alginate use available, such as from ISP

or FMC or another from FMC

In general you should consider using a sequestrant in mixing with the flavor before adding the gel. The sequestrant binds to calcium ions to prevent the mixture from gelling prematurely. Using de-ionized water is very helpful in this regard. Sodium citrate, or sodium hexametaphosphate are frequently used as sequestrants. The concentration used is very low.

Gellan can also be made to gel with calcium in the same way as alginate - you need low acyl gellan. It would be a good idea to use a sequestrant to make sure there is no calcium in the flavor mix.

In general Gellan is to be preferred over alginate in terms of texture and flavor release - it is far and away my favorite hydrocolloid for those reasons.

Perhaps NhumiSD would like to comment since I think he works for CP Kelco, and is the real expert here.

Calcium lactate is a better bet than calcium chloride since there is less of a flavor issue.

You can also do the reverse process and put the calcium in the flavor solution, and drop into a bath of the gelling agent. There are some advantages to this - it is easier to maintain an liquid center this way. Again NhumiSD may want to comment....

Nathan

[Sethro]

There are several good guides to alginate use available, such as from ISP

or FMC or another from FMC

In general you should consider using a sequestrant in mixing with the flavor before adding the gel.  The sequestrant binds to calcium ions to prevent the mixture from gelling prematurely.  Using de-ionized water is very helpful in this regard.  Sodium citrate, or sodium hexametaphosphate are frequently used as sequestrants.  The concentration used is very low.

Gellan can also be made to gel with calcium in the same way as alginate - you need low acyl gellan.  It would be a good idea to use a sequestrant to make sure there is no calcium in the flavor mix.

In general Gellan is to be preferred over alginate in terms of texture and flavor release - it is far and away my favorite hydrocolloid for those reasons.

Perhaps NhumiSD would like to comment since I think he works for CP Kelco, and is the real expert here. 

Calcium lactate is a better bet than calcium chloride since there is less of a flavor issue.

You can also do the reverse process and put the calcium in the flavor solution, and drop into a bath of the gelling agent.  There are some advantages to this - it is easier to maintain an liquid center this way.    Again NhumiSD may want to comment....

Nathan

←

Wow there is some GREAT info in that post right there. Are there any disadvantages to the reverse process? Are the proportions still in the range of 1% and 1%?

Another thing I've been wondering about, am I crazy or does added sodium (as in a salty flavor solution) increase the gelling property of the alginate? If so, would extra Sodium Citrate balance that out? My fruit caviar is pretty consistent, but I was messing with a salty vanilla caviar and was having a big problem with pre-mature gelling. It made for large, teardrop shaped caviar (looked like sperms, really) which is a pretty neat trick to keep in the back of the book, but not what I was trying for.

Edited June 4, 2006 by Sethro (log)

[jwrightdesign]

Hey Everyone -

Just wanted to drop a note and clarify that Will Powder products can now be purchased online at:

www.willpowder.net

(not through the R4D site). The site is still under development with photos, recipes and such, but since there was such a huge response we've decided to just take the site live. You can also buy the products at R4D if you happen to be in the neighborhood.

All the best!

-J