Coffee

[Sandra Levine]

Graffeo is a coffee roaster in San Francisco.  I've seen their beans at Dean & DeLuca in NYC, but you can order from them directly.  Here's a link:

Graffeo coffee

[jaybee]

Based on one pot of President Blend and one of King Hadhramaut Blend my first impressions are that this is very good coffee but not of a quality unattainable domestically.  I understand that Sabarsky uses "expresso" method for making all their coffees. They do not "brew" or "drip" or make "filtered" coffee.  This may not be accurate but it is what I was told by one of the waitresses there.  I made both my samples using the French press (AHR's comments not withstanding).  Also note that Sabarsky uses something called Meinl "Hotel Blend" which is not what I bought.

So there may be a huge difference in end result based on method.  I think Peter is correct that beans, blends and methods need to be separated so we are not comparing (you'll pardon the mixed metaphor) apples and oranges.  When I've finished the two bags (500g each), I'll have a better impression and will let you know.

[rockefeller666]

Jaybee--

That was very informative.  Thank you so much.  I'll hold off on buying for now unless your opinion changes.  I do like Peet's personally, though I still need to try Graffeo.  It's funny that I've never even heard of the beans, being a San Francisco native.  I have heard of the roastery itself, but I've never bought beans from Graffeo nor have I ever drunk any of their coffee.  Most of the time that I see the roastery Graffeo, it's always on one of those shows for tourists--thrown in with Alcatraz & cable cars--so I've never really paid attention to Graffeo.  But if you think it's good, perhaps when I go back home next time, I'll give it a shot.

[Sandra Levine]

I've heard that Graffeo is served in many S.F. restaurants, but not necessarily identified by name.

[phaelon56]

Great thread... I'm new to the site and strongly recommend (for those who are truly interested) a visit to www.coffeegeek.com (many of you have probably already been there).  Several points raised in other responses that I'll address:

Lavazza makes more than one grade - the stuff in the black can is Medaglia D'Oro grade - okay but nothing special.They also have one called "Qualita Oro" in a gold can - twice the price and better but IMHO nowhere close to the quality  of Illy. I've also tried Ionia and rank it a notch below the better grade of Lavazza. On a recent trip to San Francisco I tried an espresso at Torrefazione Italia cafe (they have several in SF and also in a few other cities). I was blown away by the quality of their product and brought a bag home. I have now been ordering it online from them at www.titalia.com - about $8 per 12 oz vacuum bag but incredible stuff. My favorite until then had been Illy whole bean - this is as good or better at  lower price. the Perugia blend is the one recommended for espresso - can't comment on the others for regular coffee as I haven't tried them.

Best espresso in NYC?  Chowhound recently had a thread about a place called cafe Gitane but the comments I saw in citysearch (from many people) an uber-trendy and snotty staff and lots of smoke deterred me from a visit. I'll try it some weejday afternoon during the slow time if I can get there but until then I really haven't had a "knocks-your-socks-off" espresso in NYC - I have to go home to my NJ apt to get one!

[jaybee]

Several years ago Iwas doing some consulting work for Nestlé

in Vevey.  My client (the #2 man in the corporation) was able to serve up a cup of expresso at the drop of a hat in his office.  I asked how.  He proudly showed me a new machine they called "Nespreso". It was an electric expresso maker that used capsules instead of loose grounds.  These sealed capsules were put in a metal holder, much as a conventional expresso machine.  Push a button and steam was forced at high pressure through the capsule and its contents, making an excellent cup of frothy coffee.  Needless to say I bought one immediately, along with a large supply of capsules.  Months later I offered my client a cup of coffee when he was visiting us in NY.  He didn't know I had the machine.  He wrinkled his nose and said no to "American" coffee. I brought him a cup of Nespresso and he lit up like a Christmas tree.  That made it worth the $450 the machine cost.  This machine is now being marketed, I think, by another brand under license from Nestlé.  Illy make one like it.  

All I can tell you is that it was dangerous.  I think my feet levitated about three inches all day from the continual supply of high test expresso I was drinking.  I left the machine with my estranged partner when we dissolved the company.  But I have fond memories of push button expresso.

[rockefeller666]

phaelon--

I am a huge coffee drinker, and I checked out your site of coffeegeek.com.  Unfortunately, it's all machines.  They don't really rate different beans from different suppliers, or do they?  I couldn't find any.  Personally, I don't own an espresso machine.  I don't want to deal with the cleaning, the hassle and the expense.  I own a plain old drip filter (cone #4) coffee filter which was given to me free for ordering a 1lb bag of Gevalia coffee (which I do not like).   But when I throw in some great beans (like Peet's), the coffee that comes out of that little piece of plastic is amazing.  It blows away 95% of the coffee I can get at most restaurnats & coffee houses.  Personally, I really think the beans are the biggest difference.  Yes, water & equipment matter, but not as much as the beans.  You can buy a $500 espresso machine and use $5 bottled water, but if you've got maxwell house in there, you ain't gonna get good coffee.  

But anyway, do you know of good sites which rate coffee beans themselves?

[jaybee]

But anyway, do you know of good sites which rate coffee beans themselves?

eGullet.com

[glenn]

But anyway, do you know of good sites which rate coffee beans themselves?

eGullet.com

See my post about coffees in the general seciton.  Click here

[Steve Klc]

I first discovered Graffeo at their San Rafael store in 1986 or so.  Not too touristy an area--all locals actually.  Later I found out Alice waters served Graffeo, I think that tidbit was made public in a Food & Wine profile of her daughter and the cafe named after her.  They've been on the map for a long time.

Owen--I used to use Perugia blend, too, and every now and then change off Graffeo for it.  They sold out, didn't they, and Torrefazione is no longer family held, right? Have you noticed a decline in the beans or blend from years past?

I'm with you rock666 about beans making the biggest difference--but technology and machines, properly used, sure do help you extract the inherent character of those beans and the roaster.

oh, and jaybee, nespresso is also jumping on the "Grand cru" bandwagon with a designer line of select espresso pods--have you seen them?  They're presented in a case like rare teas or cigars.

[glenn]

Owen--I used ...

I'm with you rock666 about ...

oh, and jaybee, ...

Oh, and glenn, don't get too big a complex because i'm ignoring your questions on espresso makers and coffee.  

[rockefeller666]

Steve KLC & Sandra Levine & Glenn--

You guys have gotten me very intrigued about Graffeo.  I can't believe I lived in SF for 27 years and I never once heard about it.  Nobody ever talked about it and nobody ever served it to me.  But Peet's, Spinelli's, even the defunct Pasqua, all were brought to my attention.  Graffeo, neve heard of it.  I will get some when I return to SF and try it out.  How do you guys like it compared to Peets?

[Sandra Levine]

I've had my first Peet's this week and Graffeo only once a long time ago, so I can't really compare the two.

[Steve Klc]

Glenn--it's not personal.  It's just that there are or have been several threads on this subject--and rockefeller666's attempts to distinguish them and narrowly define them aside--I worry about saying the same things over and over again and droning on too much.

The fact is many people use espresso roasts in a variety of non-espresso machines to get "coffee" as close to a true espresso as possible.  In a way, comparing espresso and coffee styles is like comparing French and Belgian chocolate candies--both use the same essential ingredient to produce a different, yet distinctive end result that is nonetheless intertwined.

I guess my sense is too much of this thread really belongs elsewhere--on General or Cooking--rather than in NY--but it has happened here and it has been easy for many of us to expand on Cafe Sabarsky and the Meinl blend and the Grimes espresso piece into larger concerns.

On this thread Glenn, the only unaddressed questions of yours I see are 1) about heating cups--you run some hot water through the "empty" grouphead and portafilter--to heat them actually in the process--and collect the water in the cup--heating it; the cups also warm up sitting on top of the machine and 2) about whether you should recommend to your restaurant to switch from Lavazza--I'm solidly with Owen on this--even the better grade of Lavazza stinks compared to several of the alternatives--whole bean Illy, Perugia blend, Graffeo are far superior.  (I have not tried Danesi, Bux, and don't have enough experience with Peet's to compare adequately, rock666) I guess I'm in the camp that feels beans for espresso have to be darkly roasted enough--but not be inappropriately dark.  The "lighter" styles of espresso roast have been less satisfying for me as have the too-darkly roasted blends--dark, black and oily just for the sake of being bark, black and oily.  (Many have commented that over-roasting is a way to disguise poor beans to begin with and I'd agree with that.)

Maybe you're feeling there are questions of yours from other threads that have gone unanswered Glenn--just find them--and push that thread to the top of General or Cooking or wherever they are and we'll address them.

And rock666--you wrote recently "I don't want to deal with the cleaning, the hassle and the expense" of an espresso machine.  I don't know how much experience you have with espresso machines and indeed, offer no judgement of your current methods--but I can tell you cleaning an espresso machine is about as time consuming and involved as cleaning a French press pot, rinsing the glass cylinder and the steel filter--in fact, it might even be easier--you press a button, which runs a few seconds of water through the machine, press the button again, swipe with a cloth, turn the machine off.  It takes 5 seconds.  Yes, there is a hassle--they're not called "semi-automatic" and "semi-commercial" for nothing and yes it is more expensive.  But with it comes greater responsibility--which Glenn fears a bit--than the press--but let me ask all of your Press pot plungers this--how diligent are all of you at cleaning the plunger and screen?  That thing collects oils over time--as has been mentioned by others--how many days do you go, be honest, just rinsing it under water, how black and dirty do you allow it to get, before you really disassemble it and clean it back to shiny stainless steel?  There's more effort involved in properly cleaning the simple French press than many people realize--each pot is diminished slightly by rancid oils allowed to collect in the mesh and grill even if you use bottled water and great beans.

One thing I'm still interested in--how do we really think Cafe Sabarsky is using these Meinl blends which seem light--in espresso machines?  I find it hard to believe they are not doing drip or filtered coffee--anyone else?

[jaybee]

One thing I'm still interested in--how do we really think Cafe Sabarsky is using these Meinl blends which seem light--in espresso machines?  I find it hard to believe they are not doing drip or filtered coffee--anyone else?

I will try to find out on my next visit.