Fernand Point and his Influence

[Really Nice!]

Hello,

I am a culinary student and have a question to answer for my French Cuisine class.

Ferdinand Point traveled to Japan in the 1930s. There he sees dishes with sauces that do not include butter, cream, or roux. The presentation is small and simple. Upon his return he begins to create what will become known as Nouvelle Cuisine. The sauces he creates return to regional and seasonal ingredients, and are lighter in body and thickened with pure starches or reduction.

My question is: Why did Ferdinand Point go to Japan in the first place?

I cannot find an answer in the library or on the Internet.

Thank your for your input.

[chefzadi]

Hello,

I am a culinary student and have a question to answer for my French Cuisine class.

Ferdinand Point traveled to Japan in the 1930s. There he sees dishes with sauces that do not include butter, cream, or roux. The presentation is small and simple. Upon his return he begins to create what will become known as Nouvelle Cuisine. The sauces he creates return to regional and seasonal ingredients, and are lighter in body and thickened with pure starches or reduction.

My question is: Why did Ferdinand Point go to Japan in the first place?

I cannot find an answer in the library or on the Internet.

Thank your for your input.

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I have to read the rules of play here first before answering your question. It might take me years to do this. I'm not kidding. Although I could answer your question on the spot if you asked me face to face.

[Bux]

One site says he was married in 1930. It doesn't say he went to Japan on his honeymoon, but who knows.

[phifly04]

You might try looking under Fernand Point

[Really Nice!]

chefzadi = I have to read the rules of play here first before answering your question. It might take me years to do this. I'm not kidding. Although I could answer your question on the spot if you asked me face to face.

I don't understand. All I want to know is why did Ferdinand Point go to Japan in the '30s. We all have reasons for travel. What was his reason to go to Japan?

Bux = One site says he was married in 1930. It doesn't say he went to Japan on his honeymoon, but who knows.

Thanks, Bux. That might help. I only found 7 sites on Google for "Ferdinand Point" and Japan, but none that I could see explained that.

phifly04 = You might try looking under Fernand Point.

Using what media? I've been to the library and searched the Internet.

[chezcherie]

fernand point, not ferdInand. that may be the problen when googling?

[bleudauvergne]

Another interesting fact to add is that Fernand Point's father, who bought the restaurant for him in 1923, died in 1925, and at that point they began restoration of the mansion that became the hotel and restaurant. In 1930, after his marriage to Marie Louise, they undertook major additions to the site, including a terrace and a third floor (in French a "deuxieme etage" is what we know as a third floor) to the house.

It is mentioned in the history of the restaurant that the concept of "la cuisine nouvelle" was already in the vocabulary when the restaurant was purchased in 1923, so I doubt that his travel to Japan actually gave birth to a movement. Perhaps this is just a legend. Link to website La Pyramide where you can read the history.

There could have been many reasons he went to Japan, one of them may have been to source decorative objects for the hotel restaurant as they undertook the additions and rennovation to the maison. A few years ago I did some research on the first Hermes scarves, and recall reading some trade articles from the early 30s in the library of the musee du tissue here in Lyon (Hermes was based here in the beginning). Asian silk designs and art were all the rage in France at the time, and played heavily in interior decoration.

No better place than the source - I called the restaurant in Vienne and have made a rendez-vous telephonique with someone in the direction for tomorrow who may be able to tell me more, I don't know. The history on the website at La Pyramide says nothing about his travel to Japan. I will be speaking to them tomorrow.

[Ptipois]

At any time, the introduction of new dishes, or even of a slight modification in styles, may potentially result in the use of terms like "cuisine nouvelle". It may or may not result in a massive revolution in culinary habits. There probably have been "cuisines nouvelles" repeatedly since the 17th century. However, the concept of Nouvelle Cuisine as we understand it today was not created before the 1970's (indeed, under some Japanese influence brought in by French chefs) and, though Fernand Point may be a forerunner, he is not considered the direct origin of that movement. Names like Michel Guérard and Jacques Manière rise to the mind; and the formula was, so they say, created by Henri Gault and Christian Millau.

This is not to minimize the importance of Fernand Point, this is just to say that if you mention "Nouvelle Cuisine" in a contemporary French context, you're not referring to something that was started by him.

Edited January 20, 2005 by Ptipois (log)

[Really Nice!]

fernand point, not ferdInand. that may be the problen when googling?

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Sheesh! My apologies.

[Really Nice!]

No better place than the source - I called the restaurant in Vienne and have made a rendez-vous telephonique with someone in the direction for tomorrow who may be able to tell me more, I don't know.  The history on the website at La Pyramide says nothing about his travel to Japan.  I will be speaking to them tomorrow.

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Thank you very much!

[chezcherie]

No better place than the source - I called the restaurant in Vienne and have made a rendez-vous telephonique with someone in the direction for tomorrow who may be able to tell me more, I don't know.  The history on the website at La Pyramide says nothing about his travel to Japan.  I will be speaking to them tomorrow.

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Thank you very much!

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wow..now that's the power of egullet! kewl.

[Carlsbad]

I first became interested in Point back in the '70's, when his widow was still running the restaurant, after he had died in 1955 at the age of 58. Unfortunately, I never made it there. I still have a clipping written by Herb Caen, the San Francisco columnist, dated June 28, 1972, which recounts a meal at Restaurant de la Pyramide. After saying that it wasn't the same as when Point was alive, he recounts a meal of "truffled foie gras in brioche, a delicate trout mousse, the salmon in champagne sauce done to a glazed turn, the duck carelessly plucked but delicious between the pinfeathers. Cheese, sorbet and pastry are included in this prix fixe dinner of 80 francs (about $16 per person), which seems like an unbelieveable bargain. But with a fair bottle of Nuits St. Georges, cover charges and whatnot, the tab came to about $57 for two."

One of my old cookbooks has a photo of a carte from La Pyramide, dated March 7, 1964. The price for the 5 course menu was then "45 francs sans vin." Another has a copy of the carte from March 2, 1978, when the price had risen to 160 francs. Excerpts from the wine list in 1978 show an impressive list of Bordeaux and Bugundy, but also many wines from the Rhone Valley and even house-bottled Moulin-a-Vent and Julienas. One note from 1978 indicates the restaurant used a kilo of truffles per day.

Unfortunately, I can find no reference to a trip to Japan in anything I have. In fact, there is the following description of him as follows in the book Great Chefs of France: "He came from a modest enough background-- he was almost pathologically insular, hating ever to be away from home and never even contemplating the possibility of travelling abroad. He had no interests other than food; he never read a book unless it were about cuisine. He saw no no point in going to the theatre, saying 'The theatre come to me.'" The article, which is written very much from Madame Point's perspective, then points out that his marriage in 1930 led to a total remodeling and updating of the restaurant because his new wife "said quite simply that she wouldn't go to the place while it was in such a state." It goes on the credit Madame Point with liberating his "singular originality which was to change so much of haute cuisine." If he went to Japan in 1930's, perhaps it was his wife who convinced him to go.

[Bux]

I didn't get to France until about five years after Point died and la Pyramide was not on my student budget. Besides, I had never heard of him until I started reading food magazines some years later. We did eat there in the late sixties when Mme. Point was still alive and we were just getting to appreciate fine cuisine. I recall a menu that had both duck with bearnaise sauce and chicken in a rich tarragon cream sauce. So much for nouvelle cuisine as we've come to know it.

[Carlsbad]

From what I have seen, I think the closest thing you will find to what Point served is at Bocuse. It's hardly earth-shattering today, but it was a different concept of using the best, freshest ingredients and somewhat lighter sauces. But one of Point's famous quotes was "Butter. Give me butter and then more butter." Bernaise was one of his favorite sauces, of which he said, "Let your eyes wander for a moment and the sauce is unusable." Not all that modern today. However, one thing that is still modern is the notion that each ingredient should be the finest and that cooking should enhance the natural flavor. Point also believed in training and counseling others, which was apparently not that common then, including Bocuse, Chapel, the Troisgros brothers, Outhier, Francois Bise and Thuilier among others.

[milla]

Unfortunately, I can find no reference to a trip to Japan in anything I have.  In fact, there is the following description of him as follows in the book Great Chefs of France:  "He came from a modest enough background-- he was almost pathologically insular, hating ever to be away from home and never even contemplating the possibility of travelling abroad.  He had no interests other than food;  he never read a book unless it were about cuisine.  He saw no no point in going to the theatre, saying 'The theatre come to me.'"  The article, which is written very much from Madame Point's perspective, then points out that his marriage in 1930 led to a total remodeling and updating of the restaurant because his new wife "said quite simply that she wouldn't go to the place while it was in such a state."  It goes on the credit Madame Point with liberating his "singular originality which was to change so much of haute cuisine."  If he went to Japan in 1930's, perhaps it was his wife who convinced him to go.

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An exceptionnal post, Carlsbad.

Reading this thread yesterday made me want to scurry for my Great Chefs of France as I vaguely remembered that passage that you quoted. I remember reading that he was quite uncomfortable even visiting Paris where he spent some time training as a young man as to be too far away from Vienne and home. It will be interesting to hear about bleudauvergne's phone conversation on what they have to say but if i was a betting sort I would take the position that he never visited Japan.

[Pan]

[...]However, one thing that is still modern is the notion that each ingredient should be the finest and that cooking should enhance the natural flavor.[...]

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I'm not sure I understand. In previous generations, the cooks for the wealthiest (and before that, the king and his court) didn't think each ingredient should be the finest? And I'm not sure I understand about cooking enhancing the natural flavor as something new. I'll look forward to your explanation.

[Ptipois]

I recall a menu that had both duck with bearnaise sauce and chicken in a rich tarragon cream sauce. So much for nouvelle cuisine as we've come to know it.

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As I wrote before, the fact that any chef can bring some innovation in the art of cooking, at any given time and to some extent, and thus produce what may be called "une cuisine nouvelle", is to be distinguished from the historical beginning of what we have known as "nouvelle cuisine" since the early 70s. Indeed Nouvelle Cuisine was partly based on ideas some French chefs had recently brought back from Japan, but Fernand is not considered the starting Point (if I may allow myself) of this trend.

As for the notion that each ingredient should be the finest, there is nothing modern about it; and that cooking should enhance the natural flavor, this is only the essence of French cooking.

[bleudauvergne]

Very brief discussion it was -

I was to speak to the owner, Mme Henri-Roux. However, they were expecting my call this morning and I never got through, the receptionist had already prepared the answer - They have only owned the restaurant since 1989 and don't know all of the little details of the history of F. Point's life. Voila. They can confirm nothing, not even a trip to Japan.

I'd say honeymoon, if he went at all.

[chefzadi]

Gayot.com has some interesting bits of information on Nouvelle Cuisine.

[therese]

Try posting this question on the Japan forum. There are some very dedicated subscribers over there who might be able to look at Japanese sources for you.

[phifly04]

Gayot.com has some interesting bits of information on Nouvelle Cuisine.

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http://www.gayot.com/restaurants/features/...llecuisine.html

Very interesting read,still digesting the ramifications.Im still dying to know the answer to the original post,i myself have invested about 2 hours of my time searching my books,the internet with nary a trace.Im so googleized i,ve tried fernand point in japan,fernandpoint1930,s,and many more combos and have come up with diddily squat.But i have learned some good information on the journey,so not a total loss

Dave s

[chefzadi]

I've been searching in French. NOTHING. I'm wondering where you came up with your statement:

"There he sees dishes with sauces that do not include butter, cream, or roux. The presentation is small and simple. Upon his return he begins to create what will become known as Nouvelle Cuisine. The sauces he creates return to regional and seasonal ingredients, and are lighter in body and thickened with pure starches or reduction."

Is this your own thesis?

Fernand Point trained alot of chefs, including Paul Bocuse one of the "instigators" of nouvelle cuisine. It just doesn't seem plausible that this trip to Japan affected his cooking so much, if at all. If it did he sure kept it a secret. Also sauces without butter, cream or roux were already known to French Chefs at that time. Japanese sauces tend to combine salty and sweet flavors, as well as fermented ingredients. The combination of these characteristics is not considered so desirable to the French palate especially at that time.

In a larger context the French already had contact with Asians via Indochine. They would have seen at least a smaller and simpler presentations over there as well. Although not in the same vein as the Japanese style. Remember the French were an Imperial force, they had contact and close relations with a lot of "ethnic" groups. So if you see a Tuna Tartare on a French menu, the inspiration for it is not necessarily Japanese or Asian-American or an American trend. As a matter of fact many French chefs point to a Tahitian influence.

Epiphanies can easily be pinpointed. Influence is a combination of many factors, including historical context....

Just my tuppence of observations...

[chefzadi]

I just noticed the part about sauces thickened with "pure starches"? Do you mean cornstarch? arrowroot? This technique is a non, non, non in Cuisine Gastronomique. I've never served a sauce like that even casually. Also reduced sauces were known and used by the French well before the obscure Japan trip.

[Bux]

Of course his wife and her two successive chefs may have been revisionists, but there was nothing in what I saw a dozen years after his death that might have indicated any Japanese influence on the food in the restaurant. The sauces and food we encountered were in a way representative of what was served all over France at the time, just better crafted.

As Ptipois says, "new" (in any language) is relative to the times. Nouvelle Cuisine in English, refers to dishes that appeared mostly in the seventies and perhaps the eighties. At some point in the eighties, avant garde chefs referred to their work as contemporary, not new. This is not unlike the way we use the term modern art to mean work from the impressionists to perhaps the abstract expressionists. The period has been codified as modern art and new works began to be thought of as contemporary as if modern was now a historical style. In English at least, after Nouvelle Cuisine we have Nueva Cocina. I suppose Point was an innovator, but more the grandfather of Nouvelle Cuisine than the father, perhaps.

[robert brown]

This is the first I heard that Point may have gone to Japan. There is someone I can try to ask who should know. I'll let you know what happens.

Jean Delavayne is another chef often thought of as a progenator of La Nouvelle Cuisine. I think the Gault-Millau magazine started around 1970, but before that they published "La Guide Juillard, which as far as I know never mentioned "La Nouvelle Cuisine. My brother went to Bocuse and Troisgros in 1968 where they were probably making what Gault & Millau would have called "nouvelle cuisine".