AGA Ranges

[amccomb]

In the Pastry Forum, under a subject where people were listing their wishlists of equipment (Kitchen tools you wish you had), someone brought up a range that was on their wishlist. I checked out the site, and the range is gorgeous, but I was curious about the quality of it, and the advantages and disadvantages as compared to more traditional style ranges, such as Viking or Wolf.

Does anyone have any information on this?

[budrichard]

An AGA(at least the original ones) is ALWAYS on and supplies instant heat on at least one burner surface. So you get instant hot and you can move the pan to control the heat. The downside is that in the summer, you need a second range if you live in any climate that gets above 80F. I purchased a Viking many years ago and have been extremely happy. As much heat as Fire Codes allow for a residential purpose and just about bullet proof. In the summer, if using the oven we have to turn the A/C on for the duration of the oven cook time but the Viking does not require constant on to use the burners. -Dick

[Swisskaese]

You can adjust the temperature on the Aga. You can lower the temperature in Summer. This cooker is not for everyone. It is a professional cooker for the home and as someone wrote in the pastry thread you have to take a course on how to use it.

[budrichard]

You can adjust the temperature on the Aga. You can lower the temperature in Summer. This cooker is not for everyone. It is a professional cooker for the home and as someone wrote in the pastry thread you have to take a course on how to use it.

←

I beg to differ with you. You cannot install a professional range in a residential home unless you want to meet commercial NFPA fire code requirements. Residential ranges are designed to meet NFPA residential fire codes and all of them are severly limited in heat output. The Viking has 15,000 BTU/Hour burners and does still not put out enough heat to properly use a wok or brown in a large pot containing a lot of food. Some ranges have a burner that puts out greater than 15,000 btu/hr but the other burners are much less than 15,000. If I remember correctly, the AGA falls in this category. The reason for that is that the total heat laod of the range must stay below a certain value. At 80F and above, a range, even if turned down, will require constant A/C and is just not suitable. An AGA for the home is very impractical and the ones I have seen have been purchased to impress and receive very little actual use. The closest that one can come to a commercial Vulcan is a Viking. The heat is less but the functionality and durbailty of the Viking I have is great.

I initially tried to install a Vulcan in my home but quickly learned that it can't be done. I investigated the AGA but quickly came to the conclusion that it was impractical, the burners did not have equal heat and had become a status symbol.-If there are any AGA owners and users on this forum, I certainly would like to read thier experiences.Dick

[sadistick]

Well, the house we just got had a stunning Wolf 6 burner range, one of the reasons I wanted to get that house

I am very pleased with it, very powerfull burners...I believe a fair bit above 15k btu...

[winesonoma]

You can adjust the temperature on the Aga. You can lower the temperature in Summer. This cooker is not for everyone. It is a professional cooker for the home and as someone wrote in the pastry thread you have to take a course on how to use it.

←

I beg to differ with you. You cannot install a professional range in a residential home unless you want to meet commercial NFPA fire code requirements. Residential ranges are designed to meet NFPA residential fire codes and all of them are severly limited in heat output. The Viking has 15,000 BTU/Hour burners and does still not put out enough heat to properly use a wok or brown in a large pot containing a lot of food. Some ranges have a burner that puts out greater than 15,000 btu/hr but the other burners are much less than 15,000. If I remember correctly, the AGA falls in this category. The reason for that is that the total heat laod of the range must stay below a certain value. At 80F and above, a range, even if turned down, will require constant A/C and is just not suitable. An AGA for the home is very impractical and the ones I have seen have been purchased to impress and receive very little actual use. The closest that one can come to a commercial Vulcan is a Viking. The heat is less but the functionality and durbailty of the Viking I have is great.

I initially tried to install a Vulcan in my home but quickly learned that it can't be done. I investigated the AGA but quickly came to the conclusion that it was impractical, the burners did not have equal heat and had become a status symbol.-If there are any AGA owners and users on this forum, I certainly would like to read thier experiences.Dick

←

As I recall, when I still did remodel all that was required to install a commercial range was to encase the 3 sides with a one hour fire wall. That's lining the space with 5/8 drywall which has a one hour rating. Everything on a commercial range get's hot so what Viking did was insulate the range so your little kiddies would no get burned by touching it. What say you Daddy-A.

Edited February 10, 2005 by winesonoma (log)

[Jason Perlow]

There are states, and certain counties, such as the one I live in, that do not permit the use of a restaurant range in a house. I actually researched this when doing our kitchen remodel 2 years ago -- our town fire inspector would flat out refuse to pass us if we installed one, and as I understand, our insurance carrier would pretty much not honor any claims if we ever made one as a result of a fire originating from our kitchen. Not to mention that a real restaurant range has no pilot light and requires the use of an Ansul system for fire supression.

[Swisskaese]

You can adjust the temperature on the Aga. You can lower the temperature in Summer. This cooker is not for everyone. It is a professional cooker for the home and as someone wrote in the pastry thread you have to take a course on how to use it.

←

I beg to differ with you. You cannot install a professional range in a residential home unless you want to meet commercial NFPA fire code requirements. Residential ranges are designed to meet NFPA residential fire codes and all of them are severly limited in heat output. The Viking has 15,000 BTU/Hour burners and does still not put out enough heat to properly use a wok or brown in a large pot containing a lot of food. Some ranges have a burner that puts out greater than 15,000 btu/hr but the other burners are much less than 15,000. If I remember correctly, the AGA falls in this category. The reason for that is that the total heat laod of the range must stay below a certain value. At 80F and above, a range, even if turned down, will require constant A/C and is just not suitable. An AGA for the home is very impractical and the ones I have seen have been purchased to impress and receive very little actual use. The closest that one can come to a commercial Vulcan is a Viking. The heat is less but the functionality and durbailty of the Viking I have is great.

I initially tried to install a Vulcan in my home but quickly learned that it can't be done. I investigated the AGA but quickly came to the conclusion that it was impractical, the burners did not have equal heat and had become a status symbol.-If there are any AGA owners and users on this forum, I certainly would like to read thier experiences.Dick

←

Jackal has an Aga. Ask him.

I meant it is professional-like. An Aga range is for home use.

[jackal10]

I have a reconditioned old 4 oven AGA converted from solid fule to oil, and I love it.

YOu either love them or hate them. For me they are the warm centre of the house.

They take a little getting used to. Always on, but heavily insulated so no that inefficient. More like cooking on a flatttop - you move the pans around to different heat zones. The ovens are at roughly 300C, 200C, 100C, 60C - the last perfect for those long time low temperature dishes, although originally it was for plate warming.

Advantages are its solid, indestructable, always there ready, with the hot oven hotter than most domestic ranges and the bootom cooler. Since the heat is all round, it roasts and bake superbly - the hot oven floor means you don't need pizza stones or bricks - you have a ton of cast iron instead.

Disadvantages are it weighs tons, so needs a ground floor or good support.

It has a very high thermal inertia, so you cook at the temperature it wants.

If you leave the oven door open and the top uncovered for a long time it will significantly drop the operating temperature.

Its warm in hot weather - about equivalent to a radiator permanently on

Cakes are slightly tricky on the two door model, as they fall between the two oven temperatures, but you can use a cold shelf to get round it.

It needs servicing (basically brushing out the flues) once every six months.

No grill or slalmander, but great for contact grilling. Makes the fabulous toast

If you are an AGA person, or grew up with one, nothing else will do. It has cultural overtones of upmarket country house living, dogs and horses.

If you arn't an AGA person, then it is pretentious scrap iron.

Second hand ones are good value.

[Daddy-A]

As I recall, when I still did remodel all that was required to install a commercial range was to encase the 3 sides with a one hour fire wall. That's lining the space with 5/8 drywall which  has a one hour rating. Everything on a commercial range get's hot so what Viking did was insulate the range so your little kiddies would no get burned by touching it.   What say you Daddy-A.

Different parts of the country are going to have different codes pertaining to "professional" appliances. The codes are going to deal with four areas:

1. Fire prevention
   
2. Fire supression
   
3. Ventilation
   
4. Gas supply
   

#1 Bruce just dealt with ... with that kind of BTU power coming from your burners, you'll be looking at some form un non-combustible surface (tile, stainless steel, etc. ) in addition to 3/4" 1hr fire rated drywall.

#2 Means a sprinkler system, not a $20 fire extinguisher.

#3 is a double edged sword, because with professional strength extraction you'll need equal levels of make-up air.

#4 has to do with the amount of gas coming into your house. You'll almost certainly have to upgrade.

You should also consider how heavy the range is. A 60" Garland in your kitchen may require some reinforcements to the floor joists.

Is it possible? Yep ... been there, done that. But you really gotta NEED it before its worth it.

A.

[jackal10]

I should add an original advantage of the AGA ia that it burns any type of fuel, and in particular solid fuel like wood or coal, which is a real advantage if you are in the middle of nowhere.

May not be such an advantage in a town center

[NulloModo]

I think some are making to big a deal over codes. I am not sure of the legality here of installing professional ranges, but I know several people who have had it done. All you need is a contractor who is more interested in customer service than in following codes. I haven't asked but they probably had to pay more to have the ranges installed that it would've been for a basic one, and I'm not sure how it works if they ever try to sell the house, but if you know you are going to be staying where you are now, and have the money to spend on an AGA range to begin with, I doubt it would be a problem...

[winesonoma]

I think some are making to big a deal over codes.  I am not sure of the legality here of installing professional ranges, but I know several people who have had it done.  All you need is a contractor who is more interested in customer service than in following codes.  I haven't asked but they probably had to pay more to have the ranges installed that it would've been for a basic one, and I'm not sure how it works if they ever try to sell the house, but if you know you are going to be staying where you are now, and have the money to spend on an AGA range to begin with, I doubt it would be a problem...

←

If you find a contractor who is more interested in customer service than following codes run as fast as you can. He is putting his license on the line and your insurance co. will laugh at you, then sue you, then accuse him of criminal negligence and take all he has. There are reasons for codes and you would be foolish to ignore them. Do it once do it right. I've had many fools for clients but I look out for me. Personal injury attorneys love people like you.

[nathanm]

I think people are talking past each other. Here is my perspective.

True restaurant ranges have two sets of issues associated with them - one is the set of things functionally required in order to install them, or else they are not going to be safe or work well. The second is what the local building code people think are required. The two in theory should be related but in practice they are not.

Any stove used for a lot of serious cooking needs to have a hood. A true restaurant stove needs a powerful hood because the high heat burners cause a lot of hot air to rise, and you really want to draw it off. Also, when you sear something and create clouds of smoke or steam, you want it to go away.

Most residential kitchens have pathetic hoods - even for the heat output of their fairly weak burners. This is a chronic weakness among most residential kitchen designers, and appliance makers. Anybody serious about cooking should consider having a great hood and ventilation, and some kind of fire supression system, and appropriate heat proofing in adjacent walls. These truly fuctional and safety issues should be addressed.

The building code is quite another matter. In principle large parts of the world (the US, Canada, Europe) each have a single building code - called UBC in US and there are similar European codes. However, the application of the code is entirely up to local inspectors and they basically have random requirements. Any conclusion drawn from one person's experience in one part of the country cannot be reliably applied to another part of the country because the local inspector ultimately rules.

So, those of you in posts on this thread who are stating somethnig is legal, or illlegal or possible or impossible, well, you are ALL correct - at least someplace! And you are probably not correct someplace else. I don't think that it is worth arguing about because the standards are applied so inconsistently.

Once a building inspector takes a position, you are often stuck with it. You can sometimes talk them out of their positions, but my experience is that very few inspectors know what the code actually says. They only get annoyed if you try to refer to the actual code. Instead, they have their own habits.

Nevertheless, when anybody tells you "you can't do this, it is against code", or "against the law", or "illegal", the thing you should always ask is "OK, show me the section". In almost all cases the actual code says something quite different than they are claiming.

Note that SOME of the UBC requirements make sense because they are functional (i.e. the hood issue, having fire suppression) and plenty of other requirements do not make any practical sense.

Another point is that, technically speaking, the UBC has requirements on commercial kitchens, and on residential kitchens.

UBC does NOT actually have requirements on putting commerical equipment in a residential kitchen - the definition of the code is by class of building and use, not by the equipment. Some building inspectors will make you comply with the commercial code if you have commercial equipment. However, this is their own private opinion - technically there is no actual code requirement to do so.

Others don't care, or don't know. Some will, as one post says, flat out refuse. They are not on good grounds to do that, but they certainly can try.

Generally the fire marshal is only concerned with the fire supression system and hood, not the stoves. There are also insulation requirements for certain kinds of restaurant equipment. However, the key fire marshall requirement is the hood - it should have grease traps, and a fire supression system.

Imported foreign stoves and other equipment can be tricky because of UL listing requirements. Some European equipment is not UL listed. That will freak out a US inspector because they will act like it is an untested death trap, when in actual fact it may be higher quality and have been more completely tested than any US made equipment. This too can be overcome with some effort.

However, all of the above is about TRUE restaurant stoves. Because of the popularity of restaurant-style stoves, most of the manufacturers - including Garland, Wolf, Viking and others make "restaurant-style" stoves that conform more to residential kitchens. These range from versions of restaurant equipment with similar performance, to other stoves that are functionally no different from conventional kitchen stoves - they just have lots of stainless and heavy gauge pot grids, so they LOOK like a profesisonal stove. This later category of equipment may look like the real thing, but the performance is often not there.

Because there are a range of models and a range of manufacturers, you really have to check the the actual specs.

For example, residential stoves are frequently limited to 14,000 to 15,000 BTU burners. A big restaurant burner could be 110,000 BTU, up to 350,000 BTU. Whether you actually need a burner like that depends on what you are doing with it.

High heat is important for some things, but frankly in other aspects of cooking it is not really relevant. In my opinion the best range to cook with is induction - and although you can get a lot of heat from induction, the control of the heat is far more important to me. So obsessing about who has the most powerful burners is a bit of a red herring.

Now, then we come to the issue of the Aga. I'll stick my neck out and give an opinion here.

Aga is often described as a "professional" piece of equipment for home, as in one post.

However, no professional kitchen that I have ever heard of uses an Aga, or anything remotely similar to one. It is a unique product, which has a cult-like following that is entirely drawn from wealthy amatuers, not professional chefs.

This is not to say that it is bad, but people who have them carry on so much about how they love them and how "professional" they are that it is hard to get objective information.

In case you have not figured it out, I do NOT have Aga. However, I have seen them demoed and had people lobby me about them.

Aga appears to be an almost religious issue - sort of like a cult. I don't mean that to sound negative, if Aga owners are happy, hey, who am I to argue with their happiness with their stove?

The Aga has a very unique design that has NONE of the features that are important in a conventional range. You get neither power, nor lots of heat, nor much (some would say any) control. Aga owners have elaborate theories as to why this is a good thing - that is is good not to have temperature control, that it is good that the temperature drops quickly when you use the burners or stove (because the actual gas burners are on 7 x 24 and are very weak). These theories strike me as being rationalizations rather than scientifically based. But again, if they are happy, great.

Hopefully some real Aga owners will opine here more specifically about what they think is good about it.

[winesonoma]

The UBC, Electric, and other codes are the minimum you must use. The local inspector may demand more. Meet the minimum and you get by, by law. Don't do what the man want's you get red tagged. Your choice. All code books as I recall leave it up to the local official for the final word. Like I said your choice if you want that permit signed off. And the Bank and Insurance co to be happy. A successful contractor says you want that, ok, goes to the owner and says the inspector want's this. Here's what it will cost extra. Arguing with the inspector is like swimming up the waterfall.

[Daddy-A]

Aga is often described as a "professional" piece of equipment for home, as in one post.

However, no professional kitchen that I have ever heard of uses an Aga, or anything remotely similar to one.  It is a unique product, which has a cult-like following that is entirely drawn from wealthy amatuers, not professional chefs.

I was about to clear this up nathan ... the Aga is most definitely NOT a commercial cooker. I think that is where some confusion has taken place. There are specific installation requirements, but nothing as severe as the code requirements for commercial appliances I noted above.

I think some are making to big a deal over codes. I am not sure of the legality here of installing professional ranges, but I know several people who have had it done.

I don't know you, and I don't know your friends, but I severely doubt they have commercial ranges in their homes. If they do, the walls of their homes are likely covered in grease or are charcoal black because the burners are too powerful for residential use. Commercial ranges are NOT designed for home use unless proper precautions are taken.

The "big deal" over violating codes is that the codes are there to protect people:

• The dimwit customers who figure they can save a few bucks by avoiding permits
  
• The neighbours of said dimwit customer whose houses will no doubt be dammaged when dimwit customer's home burns down because he has improperly installed a commercial range
  
• The contractor, who will no doubt be getting sued by dimwit customer.
  

Bruce has it right. Codes are minimum requirements. And in most jurasdictions they are non-negotiable. Do it right and everybody wins.

A.

[Boris_A]

FWIW, I installed a commercial range iny my flat here in Switzerland. Interestingly, the codes are pretty similar.

1) They didnt' care about commercial or not. The fact that commercials become very hot at the outside is a problem left to you. The manufacturer printed "For professional use only" on the frontside of the users manual, on the bill of delivery and on the invoice, and with that I think he's out of the game when your kid (or you, for that matter) has some burnt fingers.

2) Code required for every open burner (commercial or not) no-flammable materials covering the structure within a 3 ft radius from any open burner. I have a paneeled ceiling, so I had to mount those 60 minutes fire protected cement paneels under the wood. (Let me add that here finding a solution together with inspectors is almost always possible. The just appreciate to be contacted before you install such crazy things, as they are also glad to avoid the hassles created by a fait-accompli.)

3) Code required an ignition coupled ventilation (translates to: forced supply of fresh air) as soon a s your total output from burners is more than 150kBTU. Mine is a meager 90kBTU, so there was no issue.

4) I installed a commercial range hood with a strong ventilation, and I never regretted it. However, I had to create two wholes in the wall with spring loaded (?) coverings tu assure enough air flow when all windows closed.

I love the open 18k and the 35kBTU burner, especially when preparing large pots and foremeost when blanching. The water starts to boil again within a handful of seconds, and that's really great. OTOH, I can reduce the fire to absolute simmer heat, and because they have large burner diameters, they spread the low heat very evenly.

But in the end, we bought it because of it's large, asymmetrical 35kBTU flattop:

There's no waiting for pans to get hot. Everything is much easier to see and there is less talking which is a good thing. I enjoy it. The only thing i would have wanted on it is one more flat top. I would have liked th eextra cooking space for pots and sauces thigs like that. But you get used to it all.

←

The flattop requires 15-20 minutes preheating, but after that it's really fun. You can cook with two running burners only, but with eight pans, if necessary. If you use pro-style copper pans, you go with a really low fire under the flattop most of the time. It's definitely economical for a professional kitchen.

It's an overkill for a private home, but compared with all those completely superfluents SUVs out there serving mostly to get some shopping bags back home from Wal-Mart , it's an overkill of almost humble dimensions and with much more fun or creative factor. At least for us.

Edited February 11, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[winesonoma]

What brand or type did you install? Might be different than our choices. Do you have a link?

[Boris_A]

It's a Molteni and you can have the same equipment by Bonnet. Bonnet does offer a simplier styled variant (without enamel and chrome/brass finish), but with the same technical specs as the high-end range. I guess two years ago, when the Euro was at $0.80, you could have had a standard Bonnet with a large flattop for $6000.

But as nathanm said, the brand doesnt' matter. The onyl additional issue I had was that Moltenis hadn't a certification for Switzerland, but for the EU only. I had to order an individual approvement performed by the gas supplying company. The guy who came knew that an EU certificate is covering all safety issues (notably thermcoupled valves).

Edited February 11, 2005 by Boris_A (log)

[winesonoma]

I think we were talking more like this for commercial, http://www.bigtray.com/bg_ranges.asp. Yours is more like an AGA that most people don't know about here.

[Swisskaese]

I am now sorry that I said my wish was to have an Aga. I didn't mean to cause such a ruckus on eGullet. I will keep my mouth shut from now on.

Aga is obviously not for the American market, that is why they do not sell well there.

Go buy Viking and Wolf.

The Europeans and this Middle Easterner will buy Molteni, Aga and other brands.

Viva la difference!

Edited February 11, 2005 by Swisskaese (log)

[jackal10]

It depends on what and how you cook.

Commercial ranges are different from domestic for good reasons; they are designed to handle much larger amounts of food. Using them in a domestic setting is like using a MAC truck to go shopping, or a 747 plane to commute a few miles to work.

The AGA was designed as a domestic stove, originally for a blind person. Back in the 1920s, when most ranges burnt solid fuel they were a great improvement in range design. They have been used commercially, typically for small restaurants, pubs or inns. See, for example John Fothergill's Cookery Book, Innkeeper of Bray.

It sits there as a warm friend, in the kitchen which is where we tend to spend most of the time.. Yes, I am an AGA person. I do also have a gas burners, including a wok burner for when I really need heat, and a combi oven/microwave as backup. I can see an induction top in my future.

I don't have a commercial range as in my kitchen I rarely cook for more than, say, a dozen people, and I don't want the noise from the ventilation and the heat put out, or have to fire up a large oven to roast a small piece of meat. I like cooking on a flat-top, but don't want to wait for a commercial flattop to come up to temperature, just to fry an egg. With an AGA the flattop has an insulated lid, and is always on, ready.

Edited February 11, 2005 by jackal10 (log)

[nathanm]

Molteni is NOTHING like Aga. Molteni is a French professional stove - it is one of the premier European brands. Stylistically their classic range looks like a very old fashioned enameled stove (as do many other European high end professional stoves). It may look a bit like Aga in that regard, but that is skin deep only.

Molteni is more than an equal for any US made commercial equipment. Their stoves are custom made and you can select which burners, flat tops, deep fryers, grills or other units to have in them.

The other top European brands include Bonnet and Thirode. There are others too.

However, at the same time I think that it is wrong to lump Aga in with other European stoves. Aga is just totally different. Better maybe, but certainly different.

This isn't about the American market versus Europeans. I live in the US, for example. But, if you ask me US brands like Wolf, Garland and others have lagged way behind European manufacturers in almost every way.

As an example, European stoves had induction long before anybody in the US had it. More recently the US manufacturers have caught up a bit and now offer induction. However, the guts of their induction units are all imported.

The same thing is true for combi-ovens - the European brands are hugely superior to anything made in the US. Pacojet is another example.

There are very few areas in professional kitchen equipment where a US company makes what is genuinely the best product. Dishwashers are probably a good example - the Hobart LX-40 is about as good as they get. Hobart mixers are also a sort of industry standard.

Finally, I'll put in a plug that for most cooking needs, induction is the way to go - there really is nothing else remotely like it.

[jackal10]

I agree. An AGA ia a stored heat stove, like a brick oven. The cooking experience is different. Better for some and some things, worse for others.

Where the US excels over European equipment is in refrigeration and washing.

The problem with a lot of US domestic equipment is that the culture is different. The US tends to prepare less at home from scratch (readers of this list excepted, of course), so the equipment is designed more for looking good, reaheating and browning, rather than actual cooking. Thus ovens have less insulation and heat storage, since they are designed to a cost, only occaisional use and for fast heating up to temperature

[Jason Perlow]

Molteni is NOTHING like Aga. Molteni is a French professional stove - it is one of the premier European brands. Stylistically their classic range looks like a very old fashioned enameled stove (as do many other European high end professional stoves). It may look a bit like Aga in that regard, but that is skin deep only.

Yup, and they go for big bucks too. Molteni is what Alain Ducasse uses in his NY restaurants and I believe in Paris as well. Per Se, Daniel and WD-50 has Bonnet stoves, Manressa restaurant in San Francisco apparently has one of the only 5 in California, and its made of Titanium. Gordon Ramsay in the UK has a Bonnet and paid £130,000 for it.

Here is a nice shot of a Bonnet in action at the late Le Cirque 2000 restaurant:

Here is a quote from Daniel about his Bonnet excerpted from an article at the Institute of Culinary Education web site:

Restaurant Daniel’s kitchen is dominated by a very large Bonnet range “island.” Can you tell me about it?

It’s massive. It projects a lot of heat, so I made it 1 1/2 inches higher than the way it comes. It’s on a cement platform that is 5.5 inches off the floor instead of 4. Then there is the stove. The stove arrived in one huge piece, and they put up the hood first. When they rolled the stove into the kitchen, it looked like it wasn’t going to fit! But there was 1/4 inch of space, so they managed. It weighs about three tons and all together the restaurant has about a quarter of a million dollars in stoves. As a long-term investment, it’s worth it. It’s a fantastic stove.

The only "residential" commecial dual-use stove that I know of that is used in a major NY restaurant was the Diva de Provence that was used at Craft for a while, which broke down so much that they eventually had to replace it.