Chopsticks

[jo-mel]

 

I solve the problem by carrying chopsticks with me.  I have a case that holds two pair of chopsticks and it lives in the bottom of my purse until I need them. 

I thought I was the only one who carried chopsticks! I have a pair of plain wooden Chinese chopsticks that I've rarely had to use --- but they are there when I want them. I don't mind the better-grade polished chopsticks from those little packages, but I really don't like the ones that feel like balsa wood. Not because of the splinters, but because of their lightness.

Some Chinese restaurants near me have cutlery plus chop sticks. When no chopsticks --- I simply ask for them -----Plus, when I place an order, I automatically ask for individual bowls of rice. When I do this in Chinese, I really get good attention! And I much prefer to hold my rice bowl in my hand. I've been doing this for so long that it seems awkward to eat off a plate, when rice is the platform for the saucy meats of vegetables.

One restaurant near me has the four seater tables set with cutlery, but the big round ones all have chopsticks. When I asked the waiter why --- he simple said that the large tables always seem to be Chinese. Reasonable answer.

[jo-mel]

I also have an array of chopsticks -- wooden, laquer, jade, porcelain, silver, ivory, plastic, inlaid, animal zodiac ones and also a collection of over a hundred chopstick rests that I've collected over the years. For the fun of it, I often set a table with a conglomeration of them all. But for myself I prefer no rest and just wooden chopsticks --- however I like the Chinese wooden ones with the tapered point, rather that the blunt ends. The blunt ones warp more than the others. Some of the wooden ones are a dark brown. Neat.

As far as chopsticks in the kitchen, I have a number of sizes by the stove. I use them constantly. Aeons ago, we were at the home of a friend who had married a Vietnamese girl. She was cooking with chopsticks which wowed me. I tried it and was immediately taken with them. Using 3 at one time is just as good as a whisk for beating eggs or making a gravy.

handy tools!!!

[cakewalk]

This is one of the most informative threads I've seen on eGullet -- and that's saying something! Many thanks. (I'm getting pretty good with chopsticks, but am definitely a novice.)

[Jambalyle]

Vancouver has such a large Asian community that it would seem very strange to go into an Asian restaurant (except Thai) and not have chopsticks... 

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Vancouver's Chinatown is where I learned to use chopsticks. Once in college (WWU), about 10 of us went to Vancouver for the day. We were in Chinatown and it was dinner time and we had $30US between us. We picked a restaurant, told them we had $30 and to bring all they could for that amount. We had a fabulous feast, even shimp! Anyway, there wasn't one fork or knife to be had in the entire restaurant - in fact a waiter went next door to another restaurant to see if they had any - nope. It was either chopsticks, fingers, or starve. Needless to say, all 10 of us learned to use chopsticks very quickly!

[itch22]

It was either chopsticks, fingers, or starve.  Needless to say, all 10 of us learned to use chopsticks very quickly!

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Should be an event on Survivor.

Well after all that has been said, I think I am going to just start carrying a pair with me.

[browniebaker]

. . .

It is not only rude to hold a bowl in your hand, but you are not supposed to use chopsticks to eat rice either. They give you a long spoon for that. I always have to stop myself from using chopsticks with the rice when eating out Korean locally. Most places use metal rice bowls as well, which are used to keep the rice hot. Not being brought up to eat in this manner, I find the no chopsticks in the rice personally very awkward, because the Banchan type stuff IS eaten with chopsticks, and you can deposit it on your rice with chopsticks, but once it is ON the rice, its spoon territory. Its the transition between the two that is hard to get used to. 

Alll the Koreans I know, including my husband and in-laws, do indeed use chopsticks to eat rice from a bowl (yes, on the table, not in the hand). The only time chopsticks are not used with rice is when spooning a bit of rice, carrying the spoon over to the soup, dipping the bowl of the spoon horizontally into the soup to mix the soup and rice, and eating the mixture from the spoon. (This maneuver is something I had never encountered in my Chinese-American upbringing and that I have had to get used to seeing and doing.)

Jason, I'm curious to know the source of what you call the Korean "no chopsticks in the rice" rule. I've never heard of this.

[Viola da gamba]

It was either chopsticks, fingers, or starve.  Needless to say, all 10 of us learned to use chopsticks very quickly!

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This was always my experience in Vancouver - and Richmond, for that matter - forks, etc. are available, but you have to ask. Except for the time I had a broken right hand & our server very kindly brought me a fork & then patted me on the shoulder. Awww.

Luckily, I was taught to eat with chopsticks at quite a young age - which helped when first meeting the in-laws (FinLaw is Chinese) as I was able to handle the food without embarrassment. It wouldn't occur to me not to use chopsticks if such are present.

[chefzadi]

My wife has heard of the no chopsticks in rice rule as well. But it's not "enforced" at all anymore. My wife's source is an old relative who still misses the "yangban" ways, including having peasants. LOL!

[Dejah]

My wife has heard of the no chopsticks in rice rule as well. But it's not "enforced" at all anymore. My wife's source is an old relative who still misses the "yangban" ways, including having peasants.  LOL!

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My family enforces this, especially when Po-Po is over for supper. I also enforce the "no elbows" and "no knees" on the table rule.

Another rule I learned as a child was: Don't lift the index finger or any finger of the hand holding the chopsticks. My "pointer" got wacked by Gung Gung's chopsticks!

Edited February 4, 2005 by Dejah (log)

[Bux]

Fascinating thread most of the time. On manners, I will only say that when I've been a guest, my hosts have generally bent over backwards to make me feel comfortable however I ate and that when I've been a host, my guests have generally bent over backwards to put me at ease. Life can really be a pleasure if you keep good company.

The rice on plate issue is interesting. Most Chinese restaurants in NYC these days, will served rice in individual bowls, one to each diner, or as many as are ordered. There was a time when they would serve a large bowl of rice to a table, particularly a table of non-Asians. I would usually ask for small bowls. I've not traveled widely or frequently in the far east, although I've made several visits to Japan and one to Hong Kong and Guanzhou. What I noticed in China, was that locals usually ate fried rice from individual bowls, often using a porcelain spoon, rather than chopsticks. It seemed like an excellent way to eat fried rice. One of the reasons I rarely order fried rice is that it's served communally and small bowls are not routinely offered.

I'm not sure I can fully explain why I enjoy Chinese food more when I use chopsticks. Part of it has to do with perceived appropriateness, but I also think much of it has to do with the fact that the food was developed over a long period of time by people who were using chopsticks for people who were going to eat it with chopsticks. It is therefore food that is designed to be eaten with chopsticks.

There exists in NYC, a form of meal that's often served only at lunch in certain kinds of Chinese restaurants. The is the "over rice" dish. It's always inexpensive and consists of either some simple meat or vegetablem, or a small portion of the food on the general menu, served on a large portion of white rice on a plate. It's usually ordered by Asian workers at lunch and I don't think I've ever seen one of them use chopsticks, unless it's in conjunction with a spoon. The spoon is always used for the rice unless I've been careless in my observation. I'm not fond of these dishes and don't order them, although I do frequent the restaurants that serve these dishes as the usually also serve large bowls of noodle soup or noodle dishes that are also an inexpensive workman's lunch.

If I am sitting at the sushi bar, I am more likely to use my hands than chopsticks. I'm not sure why. I don't know about spaghetti, but all Asian noodles seem best with chopsticks to me.

[ghostrider]

How OTHER parts of the world work.

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Hashi. Stuck in rice.

Fork. Stuck in potato.

If we do this, it doesn't much matter where we are, we're a doof and take that with us until we learn to look up and see what's around us.

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Universals in regards to manners? Maybe I'm missing something in your statement. I've said several times a genius in one cuisine is an ape in another. We're all doofs in one context or another.

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Yes, indeed. Especially as to the finer points.

But there are behaivours that are found generally egregious and are not subtle at all.

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Fork stuck in potato will generally topple over; the potato will roll.

Hashi stuck in rice will generally remain upright.

The similarity between the two actions is not immediately intuitive. Well, they both seem kind of childish, but there's more inherent logic to the rice move. To me, at least.

Edited February 4, 2005 by ghostrider (log)

[andiesenji]

One of the first things I was served the first time I spend the weekend with my roommate's family in San Francisco, was wor wonton soup, which contained, in addition to the filled wonton, several vegetables, strips of pork and many little purple "flowers" -

I was told to first eat the solid things in the bowl with my chopsticks, then eat the broth with my spoon.

Tricky grabbing those slippery things, but an excellent way to become proficient with the chopsticks.

Incidentally the little purple "flowers" were baby octopii and were delicious and apparently a delicacy served especially because I was visiting.

The trickiest thing I ever tried eating was ribbon noodle, very long noodles, about 1 inch wide, with wavy edges and served in a thick broth with scallions and a lot of garlic. The noodles were homemade and dried on a screen on the back porch. I have never seen them in a restaurant and I have been through a lot of Chinese restaurants from San Francico to San Diego. If anyone knows what they are called, I would like to know.

Edited February 4, 2005 by andiesenji (log)

[chefzadi]

I do ask for chopsticks, and often use them at home as well.  I also sometimes ask for a small rice bowl, so that I can hold it under a bite of food to catch drips.

My understanding is that Thais only use chopsticks for noodles, and forks and spoons otherwise.  Oh, and I've also been told that it's rude in a Korean restaurant to hold a bowl in your hand, which I tend to do with soup and rice.  If this isn't correct, somebody please straighten me out!  I like to know how to be polite, even if I don't always manage to do it.

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It is not only rude to hold a bowl in your hand, but you are not supposed to use chopsticks to eat rice either. They give you a long spoon for that. I always have to stop myself from using chopsticks with the rice when eating out Korean locally. Most places use metal rice bowls as well, which are used to keep the rice hot. Not being brought up to eat in this manner, I find the no chopsticks in the rice personally very awkward, because the Banchan type stuff IS eaten with chopsticks, and you can deposit it on your rice with chopsticks, but once it is ON the rice, its spoon territory. Its the transition between the two that is hard to get used to.

Korean eating etiquette is totally different from any other Eastern culture. What's right in Chinese and Japanese and Thailand/Vietnam/Cambodia/Malaysia is totally wrong to do in Korean. And as mentioned earlier, Korean chopsticks are also very difficult to eat with, because many restaurants use metal ones, which are very slippery and narrow.

To make matters even more complicated, if you are eating Korean Chinese food, do you eat Korean style, or Chinese style? Is it ok to pick up the bowl or eat rice with chopsticks? I dunno.

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If you want to get even deeper into the finer points of Korean table manners...

The rules can be quite complicated, down to who's food is placed on the table first and which order the banchan is placed, especially in front of the eldest. It covers who gets the "bigger" piece, the "prime" piece, who eats the last morsel of banchan...

As for the Korean-Chinese restaurants, even the ones in America are usually operated by Hakkyuh (Chinese who immigrated to Korea or Korean born of Chinese descent) so who decides here? The host or the guest? When I was in Korea it seemed the diners were following the rules of Korean table manners. Here in Los Angeles, even in K-town now, the customer mix is so diverse I've seen it all. But the Koreans still think of Korean-Chinese food as Chinese food, so I don't think too many Koreans would tell a Chinese diner to eat it their way. As for the Chinese, Korean-Chinese food is a style that caters to Koreans (initially anyway) so it doesn't make sense to try to dictate to customers how to eat.

[mrbigjas]

the trickiest thing that i can think of eating with chopsticks is pieces of duck breast on the bone in hand-drawn noodle soup. between the slippery skin, the fat layer below it, trying to get it off the bone, with the fatty broth right below just waiting to splash and get grease stains on your shirt the very second anything drops off your chopstick, which is inevitable considering what you're eating.... that's trouble right there.

man is it good though. one of my favorite things.

[chefzadi]

I just thought an occasion when the Korean style metal chopsticks come in handy. Crab. You can get into all sorts of nooks and crannies without smashing it with a mallot. You can also use them to split open the leg by sticking a pair in and pulling the chopsticks apart. You get a very clean, split and the meat is left pretty much intact.

[ghostrider]

Thinking further on things I've seen at local Chinese restaurants, I am wondering whether wooden pencils jammed upright into a plastic cup filled with uncooked rice carry the same symbolic meaning as chopsticks in a bowl of the cooked stuff, or whether they're somehow exempt.

[Hiroyuki]

If I am sitting at the sushi bar, I am more likely to use my hands than chopsticks. I'm not sure why.

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In Japan, you can eat sushi either way. There are no strict rules to follow anyway. At the counter, we, especially males, tend to eat sushi by hand, for fear of being looked down on by the sushi chef as not being a tsuu (connoisseur). Besides, flipping a piece of sushi upside down, dipping the neta (topping) in the soy sauce, and putting it in your mouth can only be accomplished by hand. Females, on the other hand, tend to hesitate to eat sushi by hand, even at the counter.

Note that in the Edo period, when sushi was just fast food sold at a stall, eating it by hand was the norm. People would eat a few pieces, and wipe their fingers on the noren (kind of curtain) as they left. They could tell how popular a stall was by looking at the noren!

[chefzadi]

My wife has heard of the no chopsticks in rice rule as well. But it's not "enforced" at all anymore. My wife's source is an old relative who still misses the "yangban" ways, including having peasants.  LOL!

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My family enforces this, especially when Po-Po is over for supper. I also enforce the "no elbows" and "no knees" on the table rule.

Another rule I learned as a child was: Don't lift the index finger or any finger of the hand holding the chopsticks. My "pointer" got wacked by Gung Gung's chopsticks!

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Po Po and Gung Gung? So this rule applies to other Asian cultures as well. As I mentioned it's not enforced so much by Koreans any more. It's an old rule that had limited relevance to begin with. For certain classes and all that.

[jetsie]

I'm not Asian, but lived in Japan for a few years as a kid, so I was comfortable using chopsticks from an early age. The Japanese make colorful chopsticks with kids' cartoon characters on them, so we kids were utterly in love with them, using them for everything.

In the Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese restaurants I've been to in the U.S., chopsticks and Chinese spoons almost always seem to be the default utensils. Sometimes forks are offered or set out in addition, especially if the diners are not Asian.

I usually prefer to use the utensils, dishes and glasses/cups that are traditional to specific foods. It's purely psychological for the most part, for me.

My SO and in-laws are Vietnamese and use the long, square-edged chopsticks (and Chinese spoons). This type of chopstick is held very differently from the tapered, pointy Japanese-style chopstick, so I had to relearn my technique. My SO thinks Japanese-style chopsticks are hard to use! My in-laws always use chopstick holders on the table.

At family gatherings I notice these days that the over-50 people are always given chopsticks, while the younger people often eat with forks, which they tend to use like chopsticks, in the sense that they pick up relatively big pieces of food and gnaw bites off them. When I amusedly pointed this out to my SO one day, he got offended, though I wasn't trying to criticize at all. I know I look awkward eating with chopsticks (even after thirty-some years), because I sit up straight and bring the food all the way up to my mouth, very Western style. As seen in this thread, it's hard to talk about cultural etiquette differences without offending.

[Syrah]

Chopsticks are standard here except for Thai restaurants (obviously!). You CAN request western cutlery in that context, but I do not. I do my best even though I am not proficient with them. Sometimes I feel a little embarrassed but no one has ever looked at me rudely or said anything. I feel that if you are eating from another countries cuisine, the least you can do is try to respect their practices.

[easternsun]

i looooovee chopsticks!

one thing that bugs me is when i eat in a restaurant in japan where they do not have hashi (chopsticks). especially if it is salad or pasta.

last year while in india, i ate with my right hand most of the time, but there were occasions where i knew my hands were not clean - i was all too happy to bust out my little plastic case with personalized chopsticks.

cooking with hashi is the best! beat eggs, turn fish, mix sauces - i dont think i will ever be able to go back to a fork when it comes to food prep.

i am surprised no one has mentioned the wedding hashi. someone please correct me if i am wrong - i think it is tradition to for the bride and groom of shinto ceremonies to have a special set (oranamental) that are displayed together with the sentiment that as long as the hashi are together the marriage and couple will stay together.

help me if you know more on this.

[itch22]

Though the topic was originally intended to discuss the use of chopsticks specifically, it has turned into a discussion on pretty much all Asian etiquette. So in that case, I have a question...

From a traditional stand point, and if you want to maximize the flavour of your cooking meat should be cooked on the bone. Chicken breast, still on the bone, is cut up into small pieces and then cooked and served on the bone. In your mouth you are to removed the meat from the bones. When this is done, do you spit out the bones, use your chopssticks, or fingers? Do you return it to your plate, or a special side plate intended for the purpose?

[Jason Perlow]

. . .

It is not only rude to hold a bowl in your hand, but you are not supposed to use chopsticks to eat rice either. They give you a long spoon for that. I always have to stop myself from using chopsticks with the rice when eating out Korean locally. Most places use metal rice bowls as well, which are used to keep the rice hot. Not being brought up to eat in this manner, I find the no chopsticks in the rice personally very awkward, because the Banchan type stuff IS eaten with chopsticks, and you can deposit it on your rice with chopsticks, but once it is ON the rice, its spoon territory. Its the transition between the two that is hard to get used to. 

Alll the Koreans I know, including my husband and in-laws, do indeed use chopsticks to eat rice from a bowl (yes, on the table, not in the hand). The only time chopsticks are not used with rice is when spooning a bit of rice, carrying the spoon over to the soup, dipping the bowl of the spoon horizontally into the soup to mix the soup and rice, and eating the mixture from the spoon. (This maneuver is something I had never encountered in my Chinese-American upbringing and that I have had to get used to seeing and doing.)

Jason, I'm curious to know the source of what you call the Korean "no chopsticks in the rice" rule. I've never heard of this.

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At home this rule may very well be suspended, particularly among Korean Americans. Our best friends are a mixed Korean and Chinese family (our goddaughter is their child) and we have seen them frequently eat rice in the conventional Asian manner, with a rice bowl and chopsticks. However, at Korean restaurants, its considered to be improper dining etiquette to eat rice with chopsticks and to hold the rice bowl in your hand. That's why they give you that long spoon. In addition, all prepared "bap" dishes are meant to be eaten with that spoon.

For further elaboration:

http://www.lifeinkorea.com/Food/f-manners.cfm

and this:

http://www.asiafood.org/koreafood.cfm

"Korean families usually eat rice, soup, and three to four side dishes including the sine qua non, kimchi. From each person's left are arranged rice, soup, spoon, and chopsticks, while stews and side dishes are placed in the center to be shared by all members.

Koreans use a spoon to eat rice, soup, and stews and chopsticks for rather dry side dishes, but spoon and chopsticks are not used simultaneously. Koreans also do not hold their bowls and plates while eating. When the meal is over, the spoon and chopsticks are placed back where they were.

Koreans generally believe that sharing food from one bowl makes a relationship closer. Still, one who does not wish to share the one-for-all dish can courteously ask the host for an individual bowl or plate. Today most Korean restaurants offer individual bowls and plates.

In the olden days, talking was not allowed at the dinner table, but today, eating etiquette has become more liberal. Chopsticks may be used to eat rice."

[Yuki]

Though the topic was originally intended to discuss the use of chopsticks specifically, it has turned into a discussion on pretty much all Asian etiquette.  So in that case, I have a question...

From a traditional stand point, and if you want to maximize the flavour of your cooking meat should be cooked on the bone.  Chicken breast, still on the bone, is cut up into small pieces and then cooked and served on the bone.  In your mouth you are to removed the meat from the bones.  When this is done, do you spit out the bones, use your chopssticks, or fingers?  Do you return it to your plate, or a special side plate intended for the purpose?

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Well, this depends on where you are. When I am by myself at home, I would put a whole chicken wings in my mouth with my hand, and the bones would come out intact. When you go to a restaurant, there should a plate under your bowl, put everything you don't want on there(bones, skins, or whatever). You are always ask for two plates, one for eating, and the other one for the bones. If you are not at a formal restaurant, then they probably expect/wouldn't mind you to put your bones on the table. Of course whenever possible, I would put the bones on my own plate to help the cleaning person. I do not put the piece of chicken in my mouth, instead I would slowing rotate the chicken to get all the meat. Then I would use the chopticks to place the bones on the plate. It is consider rude in my family to use our hand to eat boned chicken and more rude to just spit the bones out from the mouth onto the plate. I think this is just common sense, it just look bad and impolite when people see me putting the whole piece of chicken in my mouth and spitting the bones out.

[jhlurie]

Fascinating thread most of the time.

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Yes, it is. Which is why some sniping is both expected and allowed. But after TWO public warnings I've just come back here to see that that not everyone is willing to drop it. Rather than punish those who are using this thread productively by closing the whole thing, I've instead simply deleted those new attempts to restart the old argument.

From a traditional stand point, and if you want to maximize the flavour of your cooking meat should be cooked on the bone. Chicken breast, still on the bone, is cut up into small pieces and then cooked and served on the bone. In your mouth you are to removed the meat from the bones. When this is done, do you spit out the bones, use your chopssticks, or fingers? Do you return it to your plate, or a special side plate intended for the purpose?

All I can use to answer this question is observation. I've often observed use of fingers, at least by Chinese, to remove bones, although I've also seen some pretty elaborate deboning work with a combination of a sharp knife and chopsticks.