El Bulli--From wonderful to absurd

[tan319]

slkinsey,

all this talk of brains is making me nervous when I see that little animal (ferret?) at the bottom of your posts!!!

PROTECT THAT ANIMAL AT ALL COSTS!!!

Just trying to inject some humour in this often stormy thread

[slkinsey]

slkinsey,

all this talk of brains is making me nervous when I see that little animal (ferret?) at the bottom of your posts!!!

PROTECT THAT ANIMAL AT ALL COSTS!!!

Dude, they do the brain eating, not the other way around. And I hope you can believe me when I tell you that there is definitely a strong tradition among ferrets of eating rabbit brains!

[Adam Balic]

My main difference with you is that I think eating rabbit brains is a traditional Spanish/French/Italian practice to the extent that it relates to the consumption of rabbits either hunted or raised -- which is the way most people got their rabbits prior to the 20th century.

I'm sorry I still feel this is rather meaningless. No offense intended.

[Bux]

....but my ears picked up when I started to read what world famous chefs were saying about Adria being a genious.

Mine too, you would think that world famous chefs could spell.

Good ears. I can barely see the difference between genius and genious, let alone hear the difference. Your eyes hear better than mine see.

Adam (In a later post): The point would be is Adria drawing on a wider tradition of rabbit brain eating in Spain, as Bux seemed to suggest?

Let's look at what we said before you went on to such extremes putting words in my mouth and then absurdly drawing "catfish testicles" into the discussion.

Brains are a delicacy in France, Italy and Spain. Rabbit is much more highly prized a food in those countries than it is here. Rabbit brains would not, in my mind, be a sign Adria was moving in a direction away from his Spanish traditions.

This is not logical. I think that you would have to look long and hard to find a tradition of regularly eating rabbit brains in any of the countries you have mentioned.

I did not say there was a tradition of eating rabbit brains in Spain, nor did I even make note that one Spanish citizen here seemed to think rabbit brains was not an odd food. All I said was that since brains and rabbits were both widely eaten in Spain, I did not find Adria's use of rabbit brains in a dish a sign he was moving away from his traditions. One is better advised to look at his other dishes for that. The logical point I was making is that there are many instances where Adria combines ingredients further removed from his traditions and that Joe displays too great an unfamiliarity with the food by using rabbit brains as an example. My point is not about Adria's creativity here as much as the value of experience when talking about a restaurant or a chef. I don't understand the need to drag this out in a form that precludes the inquisitive interest in understanding my post. Putting words in another poster's mouth is hardly constructive. I'll write my words and make my points. If they're not clear, to you or to others, I'm open to questions far more than I am to ridicule. As for the members, I trust them to understand my points without your interpretation. Sam gets it. I'm sorry to see you jump into the middle of a thread and go the route of catfish testicles to undermine my post, my points and the discussion at hand.

[Bux]

From Adrias books that I have read (with great difficulty) he seems fond of joking references to the cooking of his region (I seem to remember his 'bacon from heaven' take, which was bacon in nougat - that was quite funny).

May I know if this is a reference to "tocino en cielo?" I'm not sure what you've read about Adria's "bacon from heaven." Whatever dish you're describing would be even better understood if you mentioned that "tocino en cielo?" is a rich custard dessert with no actual connection to pork or pork fat, but the closest relative to the Spanish tocino in American cooking might be fat back. Thus if Adria is making a dish that actually combines pork or bacon with a sweet, there would be a pun that goes at least a layer deeper than your post implies.

I suppose the origin of the name of the traditional dessert goes back in time and that someone must have said this is as rich as pure lard, but it tastes like lard that went to heaven and came back.

[Bux]

To the contrary, I think Adria is pushing the envelope for people to experience and you're welcome to hop on for the ride, bumps and all.

I think this addresses my post very well. It would be foolish, if not mean, for me not to mention the bumps to any prospective diner. I don't mean to to deny their existence although I'll argue they're part of the excitement.

[Boris_A]

So what you are saying is that any country that has rabbits has at some point has most likely in your opinion eaten there brains, just not very often? ...  Maybe he is getting inspiration from 12th.C Norman cuisine, they had rabbits too.

From all what I have learned from my parents and relatives, I can say that in Italy many, many (poorer) people used to eat virtually every part of an animal. You don't need to go back to 12th century. Just about 50 years.

Have you arguments why this should have been different in France or in Spain? Or why rabbit brain is an exemption?

Just because you can't imagine something, it doesn't make it unreal. I can't stress that enough.

[Bux]

From all what I have learned from my parents and relatives, I can say that  in Italy many, many (poorer) people used to eat virtually every part of an animal.  You  don't need to go back to 12th century.  Just about 50 years.

There's poverty all over the world and no shortage in parts of western Europe. Spain, however, has missed most of the post war boom in Europe while it was ostracized under Franco. Vserna recently expressed the opinion that a 20th century history of widespread poverty and repression might be the cause for the less liesurely attitude Spaniards have towards dining than their nieghbors to the north.

[Adam Balic]

....but my ears picked up when I started to read what world famous chefs were saying about Adria being a genious.

Mine too, you would think that world famous chefs could spell.

Good ears. I can barely see the difference between genius and genious, let alone hear the difference. Your eyes hear better than mine see.

Adam (In a later post): The point would be is Adria drawing on a wider tradition of rabbit brain eating in Spain, as Bux seemed to suggest?  

Let's look at what we said before you went on to such extremes putting words in my mouth and then absurdly drawing "catfish testicles" into the discussion.

Brains are a delicacy in France, Italy and Spain. Rabbit is much more highly prized a food in those countries than it is here. Rabbit brains would not, in my mind, be a sign Adria was moving in a direction away from his Spanish traditions.

This is not logical. I think that you would have to look long and hard to find a tradition of regularly eating rabbit brains in any of the countries you have mentioned.

I did not say there was a tradition of eating rabbit brains in Spain, nor did I even make note that one Spanish citizen here seemed to think rabbit brains was not an odd food. All I said was that since brains and rabbits were both widely eaten in Spain, I did not find Adria's use of rabbit brains in a dish a sign he was moving away from his traditions. One is better advised to look at his other dishes for that. The logical point I was making is that there are many instances where Adria combines ingredients further removed from his traditions and that Joe displays too great an unfamiliarity with the food by using rabbit brains as an example. My point is not about Adria's creativity here as much as the value of experience when talking about a restaurant or a chef. I don't understand the need to drag this out in a form that precludes the inquisitive interest in understanding my post. Putting words in another poster's mouth is hardly constructive. I'll write my words and make my points. If they're not clear, to you or to others, I'm open to questions far more than I am to ridicule. As for the members, I trust them to understand my points without your interpretation. Sam gets it. I'm sorry to see you jump into the middle of a thread and go the route of catfish testicles to undermine my post, my points and the discussion at hand.

Oh, stop been so pompous Bux. This really is a pathetic. How dare you become so precious and imply so sinister motivation of mine. There are none, so grow up.

The only point I was making was that I didn't believe that there is a logical connection between Adria's rabbit brains and the the tradition of people eating rabbits and or brains in the region. There are other possiblities. Simple as that, no sad little button pushing.

As for "putting words in your mouth", again pathetic and un-true. As I indicated, it was my interparation of your statement. You are far to keen to start some sad little witch hunt when what it could have been was an interesting discussion.

Sam may "get it" but it is largely due to his un-pleasantness and eagerness to be an agressor that we are at this point. Since you are both moderators, you could do a lot better with your attitude towards contributions to this and other threads.

As for the 'tocino en cielo'. I know what it is, otherwise why would have I made the comment? Could this be a case of you putting words in my mouth or offering your interperatation to undermine my post? No, I'm not that un-generous, so I assume that you simply missed the point.

edit: Catfish testicles? Obviously it was stupid, that was the point, to demonstrate how silly "Sam's" American rodent brain munchers example was.

Edited November 3, 2003 by Adam Balic (log)

[Bux]

Boris asked earlier about the tradition of eating rabbit kidneys. It's not uncommon to find them stuffing a a loin or other cut of rabbit or appearing as part of a garnish for a rabbit dish. Last year I seem to recall both my wife and I having some such dish in different restaurants in France and also having a similar preparation here in NY. Perhaps it was a fad last year.

[Boris_A]

history of widespread poverty

Rabbit kidney and liver, veal brain, rooster comb (?), donkey meat and many other "strange" thing can be delicacies among aficionados.

Youl'll find the recipe for the Piedmontesian "Financiera" dish (lots of that kind of ingredients) in the cookbook of Guido Alciati.

And unfortunately, it's much easier to find expensive luxury dishes than a "Financiera" today, as Piero told me.

And this is because of "la mucca pazza" (BSE), created by oeconomical reasonings to produce more pure muscle meat.

Ironic, no?

"The Times They Are Achanging".

[Adam Balic]

So what you are saying is that any country that has rabbits has at some point has most likely in your opinion eaten there brains, just not very often? ...  Maybe he is getting inspiration from 12th.C Norman cuisine, they had rabbits too.

From all what I have learned from my parents and relatives, I can say that in Italy many, many (poorer) people used to eat virtually every part of an animal. You don't need to go back to 12th century. Just about 50 years.

Have you arguments why this should have been different in France or in Spain? Or why rabbit brain is an exemption?

Just because you can't imagine something, it doesn't make it unreal. I can't stress that enough.

Boris - I have no doubt that people have eaten rabbit brains, on a regular basis. That was never in doubt in my mind. I think I may have mentioned this at some point.

Just because you can't imagine something, it doesn't make it unreal. I can't stress that enough.

Nice touch, where did you get you inspiration?

[tan319]

slkinsey,

all this talk of brains is making me nervous when I see that little animal (ferret?) at the bottom of your posts!!!

PROTECT THAT ANIMAL AT ALL COSTS!!!

Dude, they do the brain eating, not the other way around. And I hope you can believe me when I tell you that there is definitely a strong tradition among ferrets of eating rabbit brains!

[Bux]

Oh, stop been so pompous Bux. This really is a pathetic. How dare you become so precious and imply so sinister motivation of mine. There are none, so grow up.

The only point I was making was that I didn't believe that there is a logical connection between Adria's rabbit brains and the the tradition of people eating rabbits and or brains in the region. There are other possiblities. Simple as that, no sad little button pushing.

As for "putting words in your mouth", again pathetic and un-true. As I indicated, it was my interparation of your statement. You are far to keen to start some sad little witch hunt when what it could have been was an interesting discussion.

Sam may "get it" but it is largely due to his un-pleasantness and eagerness to be an agressor that we are at this point. Since you are both moderators, you could do a lot better with your attitude towards contributions to this and other threads.

As for the 'tocino en cielo'. I know what it is, otherwise why would have I made the comment? Could this be a case of you putting words in my mouth or offering your interperatation to undermine my post? No, I'm not that un-generous, so I assume that you simply missed the point.

How many times must you call someone pathetic to prove you're not trying to get personal?

What was there to discuss? I never implied Spaniards ate rabbit brains. I implied that they ate brains and rabbits and thus the combination was far less alien to Spanish or Catalan food than many of Adria's other dishes. Hey, what's an "interparation?" Remember, no one calls me a "genious."

I didn't imply you didn't know what "tocino de cielo" was, but you didn't use the term, you used an English translation and I was trying to clarify the point in my own mind as well as provide information. Given the way you stepped into this thread, I had good reason to ask quite timidly as I did without making assumptions or offering my interpretation. My guess is that many members are unfamilar with the dessert.

There's a difference between putting words in the mouth of another poster, interpreting his words and adding supporting information that makes the thread more meaningful to those reading along.

[pedro]

Finally, I wonder whether we are engaged in a futile search for some sort of "essence" of a restaurant: is it "good"? Is it "bad"? Hence Pedro asks,

Does any of you have an opinion on how reliable Rachel cook is?. Just by chance, I've found an article from her on El Bulli, El Bulli on The Observer. It looks like she didn't enjoy her meal there.

Now we are chasing that elusive "essence" through the views of someone reviewing a reviewer: "My friend who went to two restaurants that Rachel Cooke disparaged, and he enjoyed both meals." Again, what does this tell us? Does it matter that Rachel Cooke is a novelist, not a restaurant critic, and that Robuchon praised Ferran Adria? I don't think so.

No, I was just trying to qualify some information. I wouldn't interpret Rachel Cook's article in the same way knowing that this was her first experience in this kind of restaurant, or knowing that she's a cook who defends traditional cuisine. Just that.

And now, how on earth has this evolved to discussing about the existence of the tradition of eating rabbit brain?. . Spain has lots of traditional recipes with casquería (liver, tripes, kidneys, brains, ...), lots of traditional recipes with rabbit, so it's not that shocking to use rabbit brains. I can swear it'd have looked more traditional to my grandfather than any foam or air you could have presented to him.

Tocinillo de cielo is the proper name of the dessert described by Bux.

I'll try not to post any other innocent question about El Bulli. Unless I'm in the mood for a storm (not necessarily a brainstorm).

[Adam Balic]

There's a difference between putting words in the mouth of another poster, interpreting his words and adding supporting information that makes the thread more meaningful to those reading along.

Good point, make sure that you tell "Sam".

What would have been nice would have been a discussion on how much 'tradion' there was in Adria's cooking, as there seems to be do much discussion on the opposite aspect of his cooking. How unfortunate.

This 'episode' certainly made me feel that the weekend I have spent writing a EGCI course was well worth the effort. Thanks ever so much.

[Bux]

edit: Catfish testicles? Obviously it was stupid, that was the point, to demonstrate how silly "Sam's" American rodent brain munchers example was.

Re: your edit

There's no logic in saying something stupid and then calling it a demonstration of how silly someone else's point was. As for Sam's statement, all you can really say is that perhaps it's unfortunate that has childhood memories of living in an area of the country where squirrel brains are eaten. Then again I'd hold that it's unreasonable to turn one's nose up at the thought of eating squirrel brains unless one's had them. I doubt you'll ever see me criticizing them as food.

[Bux]

What would have been nice would have been a discussion on how much 'tradion' there was in Adria's cooking, as there seems to be do much discussion on the opposite aspect of his cooking. How unfortunate.

This is an interesting subject. I suspect there's less in Adria's cooking than in most of his creative peers. That's if he has peers. So many seem to want to put him out of the competition. He holds a place in Spanish and maybe European cuisine that is further removed from his contemporaries than Ducasse or Robuchon.

I'd suggest you will always find some roots in any artist's work, or chef's cooking. I'd also suggest the subject would be more interesting if it included other avant garde chefs, or the whole lot of them. Some interesting things have already been said elsewhere on this board. I'd also have to admit that I don't often get the deconstruction thing as I don't have the familiarity with regional Spanish cuisine. In essence, I often just understand dishes by their satisfaction level and miss the intellectual point. There was a quote from a chef who noted that his food couldn't be appreciated by someone who didn't have his background. There's another subject. I think he's entitled to that attitude, although it's bad business.

[Joe H]

I am just curious but at what point does one draw the line? Obviously, my "line" is considerably less adventurous than many who have participated in this discussion. Yet in what I now feel is somewhat relevant, one of the two chefs that I originally mentioned, said to me several months ago in describing the meal that he "thought that one of the courses the next night would be sheeet." Literally, feces. After saying this he laughed and said that people would eat it because it was El Bulli "sheeet."

There are some cultures in the world where feces and urine are consumed for various reasons. What if he were to fashion some kind of revelatory dish using excrement? Say, pig excrement. Perhaps the treatment allowed whatever the taste may be to be fairly distant, even overshadowed by other flavors. Still, my question is, would a truly, spectacularly adventurous challenging dish which incorporated pig excrement as one its ingredients be a consideration for you on your next visit to El Bulli? If your answer is no, then I must ask why not? Why do you draw the line at this? And, if no line is drawn for this, where would you draw the line? How far would someone go in consuming that which is considered "taboo" just because it is served at El Bulli?

I can't help but think of a show that I saw on Alfred Hitchcock along with a similar story that I read in EC's Vault of Horror, both in the '50's (yes, '50's) about a restaurant that was considered the best in the world. Diners had no idea that the meat they were eating was breathing and walking a street the day before. Yet the flavors were so profound, so intense, so different from that which any other restaurant anywhere else in the world could offer.

I believe this is a logical extension of the discussion above given the criteria of spectacular, adventurous apparently limitless exploration for new revelatory experiences that no one else on earth is doing.

Comments?

[MatthewB]

As for Sam's statement, all you can really say is that perhaps it's unfortunate that has childhood memories of living in an area of the country where squirrel brains are eaten.

Cambridge, Mass = home of squirrel brain eaters?

Wes Craven missed that one.

[pedro]

Well, at least Adrià himself found that limit. He wrote that during a visit to Japan one of the ultra traditional dishes there was some kind of food (could be fish?) in some state of decomposition. He tasted it, and didn't like it. Definitely, education and cultural background plays an important role here, as he concluded.

I still remember the sheer amazement I experienced when confronted to my first Indian meal... a complete different set of tastes and flavors.

[slkinsey]

edit: Catfish testicles? Obviously it was stupid, that was the point, to demonstrate how silly "Sam's" American rodent brain munchers example was.

You know, "Adam," I find it ironic that you decry my alleged argumentative nature on one side of your mouth while at the same time the other side impugns and slights me. As much as you would like to pretend you are the "wounded party" here, the sarcastic remarks and personal comments have generally come from you and I have barely replied in kind.

I thought my "silly argument" (another disparaging characterization from you) illustrated well the point I was making. You said:

I think that you would have to look long and hard to find a tradition of regularly eating rabbit brains in any of the countries you have mentioned.

To which I replied:

One might very well look at the United States and say that it is "hard to find a tradition of regularly eating squirrel brains" in the US.  This would be a remark made in ignorance, however, because the fact is that eating squirrel brains is a very traditional practice in certain parts of the US

The example was used to illustrate the point that, even though one may have to look "long and hard to find a tradition," this does not in and of itself mean that the tradition doesn't exist. Your contention, on the other hand, was neatly contradicted by your own statement downthread.

I have no doubt that people have eaten rabbit brains, on a regular basis. That was never in doubt in my mind.

If people have been eating rabbit brains on a regular basis, that strikes me as a "time-honored practice."

If, as you profess, you had wanted to have a discussion about tradition and Adria's cooking or the tradition of eating brains -- or if you had even wanted to ever directly respond to any of my points, you always had that option. Looking through this thread, however, it seems fairly clear that you chose not to travel down any of these paths. The fork in the road was your sarcastic post of Nov 3 2003, 11:21 AM.

If you want to engage in any discussion of substance without the personal remarks -- as you are clearly capable of doing -- I and others would welcome it. Any more of the same, I don't have the time for.

As for Sam's statement, all you can really say is that perhaps it's unfortunate that has childhood memories of living in an area of the country where squirrel brains are eaten.

I think that kind of thing is more common in Varmint's neck of the woods (which is to say, Appalachia).

[Bux]

Joe, I wonder if this post has any relevance to El Bulli at all. Nothing I had there in two meals even remotely resembled anything that was inedible. Nothing was unpleasant. Nothing was so weird or strange in a way that made it distasteful. What if Thomas Keller were to serve feces? Would you eat it? Would you ask me what I'd do if Thomas Keller served feces? That's a critical question. Feces would just be unthinkable at either place. Whatever got into your chef's mind. I'm glad I don't have confirmation of your DC chef's name.

[Bux]

Sam, forgive me. Where did I get the idea you spent some childhood time in the NC woods?

[Jonathan Day]

How far would someone go in consuming that which is considered "taboo" just because it is served at El Bulli?

Considered "taboo" by whom?

Adherents of some religions would consider it nauseating to taste pork. Others, strict vegetarians, would feel almost as disgusted to consume meat as Western omnivores would to eat human flesh. Some people are revolted at the sight of an oven-ready chicken, since its form reminds them of the animal it came from; they will happily eat chicken breasts only if they come packaged, skinned and sliced, "so that I don't know where it came from." Others find the idea of eating offal almost as horrible as eating faeces. The French and Italians serve testicles (frivolités), which cross many peoples' lines.

Taboos are socially constructed.

As Carolyn Korsmeyer points out in her recent article "Delightful, Delicious, Disgusting" (The Journal of Aesthetics and Art Criticism 60:3, Summer 2002, 217-225) the line between the disgusting and the delicious can be a thin one:

When it comes to cuisine ... the disgusting and the delicious do not always function as opposites. A good deal of recondite and sophisticated eating actually seems to be built upon (or even to be a variation of) that which disgusts, endangers or repels. Indeed, much of the haute cuisine of a culture retains an element that some people -- both inside and outside that culture find revolting.

Korsmeyer ends her article with a description of the consumption of François Mitterand's last meal of ortolans, which had been drowned in Armagnac and were served whole -- so that the diners consumed their guts as well as the meat. She quotes Michael Paterniti's article in Esquire, 129 (5), May 1998, p. 117:

Here's what I taste: yes, quidbits of meat and organs, the succulent, tiny strands of flesh between the ribs and tail. I put inside myself the last flowered bit of air and Armagnac in its lungs, the body of rainwater and berries. In there, too, is the ocean and Africa and the dip and plunge in a high wind. And the heart that bursts between my teeth.

It takes time. I'm forced to chew and chew again and again, for what seems like three days ... And that's where I want to stay -- but then can't because the sweetness of the bird is turning slightly bitter and the bones have announced themselves. When I think about forcing them down my throat, a wave of nausea passes through me. And that's when, with great difficulty, I swallow everything.

Haute cuisine, served to the president of France for his final meal.

As for me, I would never eat anything "just because it was served at el Bulli." Shit included.