Indian Desserts

[anil]

Sweets in India vary by regions. Some regoins are known for their sweets. Note, that Desserts, as something one has after a meal is not really popular concept in india    One eats sweets when one feels like    

Bengalis of Kolkatta are known for their love of sweets - Much different from  the Punjabis of New Delhi, who also are know to gorge on Various kinds of Halwas,barfis. In Mumbai, the Gujuratis/SouthIndian srikand, in Cochin, the sweets made from bananas and flavorful rice-pudding are all yummy.

As far as cities go - New Delhi is the place to be in terms of getting a large variety of sweets. Punjabis are willing to eat sweets from all regions and every neighborhood has at-least a few "halwais"

Sweets in India can be a meal in themselves, and many times they are. In Bengal, the weddings bring in rasogulla eating competition -- just like the hotdog contest in Coneyisland; where guests at the weddiing (The one's I'd been to) stuffed these white-cheeseball sweet in dozens.

I gather a British outfit is currently doing a documentary somewhere in Delhi, about foods of India, they will have a section on sweets too.

I have yet to see in NYC any decent selection of sweets.

[Simon Majumdar]

Your mention of Bengali weddings reminds me of a story my uncle tells me about when he and my ( very straight laced ) father were young men.

They were invited to a high society wedding of one of their cousins.  It was the event of the year and the brides family had gone to town sourcing the best dishes from every region of Bengal.

My father and uncle decided that they were going eat the host out of two dishes Rosgulla and Rabri ( to run out a dish at a wedding was the ultimate shame for the host ) and they proceeded for five hours to do nothing but eat these two wonderful dishes.  Servants were sent to try and persuade them to try other tempting sweetmeats but to no avail, they could not be deflected from their path.

Finally, after ten hours of gluttony, the host himself came to them in tears and begged them to stop.  He even offered money.  they took pity on him and allowed him one last portion of rabri which was taken to the grooms father ( as it should be ) and so the shame of the host was avoided.

My uncle always laughs and finishes this oft told story by saying " and we then turned our attention to the malai"

S

[Suvir Saran]

Anil and Simon,

You both seem to have enjoyed a variety of Indian desserts.  And what you say is perfectly true.  Dessers to India are not just mere ending to a meal.  They can be meals onto themselves and a begining of more courses to come.

And I have to agree, it is Delhi where you often get the best desserts from across India.  In all my travles, I have never been dissapointed in the array of desserts to choose from, and how many people know exactly which place to take one to for the most clever and perfect rendering of a particular dessert.

Eg:  Roshan di kulfi

Ras Malai from Bengali Sweets

Yaadav in Old Delhi makes the best Daanedaar Barfi and Piste kee Lauj and so on....

And as Anil points out, I too have yet to see even a C grade Indian dessert in NYC.  

Simon you seem lucky to be in London where you are able to find great Indian desserts.  In NYC, I have to be on my home stove for close to 9 hours to make a good perfect Kheer without cheating by using other thickeners.

I do have recipes that are quicker and close to perfect, but there is something amazing about these kheers, rabris and malais when they are made with whole milk that has been reduced.  Half and Half and evaporated milk and condensed mild certainly can thicken them very easily, but also change the color and the sweetness to be one that is very sugary.  Not the sweeteness that comes from reducing milk over a very gentle flame over several hours.

And as Simon said, I too would not argue with Steve about pastry.  He is the master.  And certainly has much better understanding of the finer nuances of desserts.  It was evident in his succinct posting.

And Simon you are acurate in calling a comparison between the two unfair.   We are talking of t wo very different animals here.  

But there are new fusion desserts that combine the best of the Indian and Western traditions of dessert making.  It would be exciting to see the new levels of perfection they reach.  And yes, once that new tradition is grounded some, comparisons would be fair and neccessary.

Simon, thanks for sharing the wedding story.  Very sweet.

[Steve Klc]

Simon and Suvir and everyone--please feel free to discuss (and argue when necessary) with me on pastry and every thing else.  I do appreciate the kind words but I am just a pastry chef--and "master" is a very relative, often specious term in cooking.  We're all on a voyage of discovery here and I am not for stifling discussion--there is too much to be gained.

I guess I'm stubbornly on the other side of the fence here by thinking we can compare and contrast here on this thread--I do not see it as unfair.

I do think it is possible to say one thing is superior to another--as long as you define the context and basis for comparison--and for that to happen we have to have the facts, the history, the circumstances and shared experiences.  Making a comparison is not the same thing as judging.  It is potentially illuminating to get at root causes and differences--and Simon, I don't buy the Western vs. homeopathy comparison completely--yes they exist on parallel tracks, with different tenets, but they do meet and cross paths and enlighten each other--and perhaps we can do the same thing here.  Remember, with food we can resort to our palate, taste and experience--which is inherently subjective--to draw a comparison.  How much weight and significance we choose to assign to these distinctions is our own business--but should it disqualify the attempt?

Just as a minor example, on another thread, prompted by Adam Balic, I drew a comparison to old Italian cookbooks and how they reduce milk in some custard recipes and then skim or strain away the skin that forms.  I'm fascinated to hear from Suvir that some Indians cherish this process.

And Suvir--thanks for the "secret" tip about adding almond flour to firni--but it begs the question--is it more common for savory chefs to produce the desserts or has there been a division at the highest haute levels into chef and "dessert chef," as you say, much like the historical French guild divisions between the two--as two separate professions?

Also Simon, I ask you to reconsider your sense that "There is a tendency in this thread and indeed on this site to treat Indian food as if it is one type of cuisine.  It is as vast and varied as european cuisine."  If you re-read Suvir and others I cannot come away but think that we've all been very sensitive and explicit in talking about sources and experiences and our own personal limitations.  I think we're very open to the wonders that all of Indian cooking can present--and your very informed perspective, Bangla or otherwise, is key.

And, where does the dead cuisine thing come from?

On one of those other threads--I speculated--to more knowledgeable sources--whether the notion of Indian haute cuisine was indeed developing more rapidly and interestingly abroad.  If indeed true, I don't know why you feel that makes comparisons odious?  Is it impossible to say that a cuisine, if not dead, is stalled or stuck?  What about French cuisine near the end of the rigid reign and stifling nature of Escoffier?

Surely that cuisine was in a rut, a sameness and then what happened--an explosion in new directions. And as if this is not too much of a stretch already--could that stalled cuisine, as Indian haute cuisine in India might be, also simultaneously be misunderstood by the West--as perhaps the West has yet to unlock all the glory of Indian cuisine?  None of this mitigates against the value and riches of Indian cuisine--even if it were to be true.

I see that our examination of Indian desserts is breaking into several categories:

Homestyle within regions in India

Restaurant-style in India

Indian restaurants and dessert shops in London, NYC et al

Indian-fusion attempts in London and NYC

Recipes in cookbooks

And as a few have mentioned--there is the concept of dessert vs. sweet snacks and candies to consider as well.

[Suvir Saran]

Comparisons are healthy when one knows we each bring a very SUBJECTIVE baggage to any discussion.

Yes pastry chefs and savory chefs are very different.  IN the US, savory chefs are trying to re-create what they remember only from eating those desserts.  Since most respectable Halwais (pastry chefs) will not let anyone in as they labor on these magnificent treats.  It is a sacred domain.

Steve, for you, it would be fascinating to take a dessert trip across India.  Many chefs that made desserts are old and under utilized.  Since the fine banquets for which they and their forefathers made these desserts do not happen in free India.  These chefs had royal patronage.  Which is not the case today.  Thus even within India, find desserts at their very hight, are the luxury afforded by very few.  The average person surely eats much better desserts than we find in NYC.  BUt still, some money and contacts and knowledge can take you to the temples of desserts.

And Steve, you are very wise about desserts.. and accept our reverence for your words as our respect for your words and actions.  I know for a fact that you know what you say and speak.  Thus, I would love to have you talk about INdian desserts even more.. after you have tasted even a fraction of what can be tasted with a lifetime spent in their pursuit.  I live for desserts.  I skip many savory meals.. and fill myself on desserts.  I love them.. and thank those talented pastry chefs like you that have made this luxury possible for those like me.

Keep sharing your thought and comparisons.. they make for great dialogue.  Thanks

[anil]

.........

My father and uncle decided that they were going eat the host out of two dishes Rosgulla and Rabri ( to run out a dish at a wedding was the ultimate shame for the host ) and they proceeded for five hours to do nothing but eat these two wonderful dishes.  Servants were sent to try and persuade them to try other tempting sweetmeats but to no avail, they could not be deflected from their path.

..........

LOL. How true   When I was a kid I used to hangout and play at our neighours house and their daughter used to take care of me when my parents went shopping or to the "boies" or movies. When she got married, the wedding feast was my first rememberance of sweets gluttony.

The first seating of bridegrooms party, all bhadroloks (gentlemens), dressed in white dhotis and all, sat down and ate till eons. Now the second group could not start till this group finished and so on and so forth. The last were to be the bride's guests - meaning me. This went on till wee hours, and I being hungry as hell started to cry (or so I was told). Rasagullas, my favourite in that tender age were finished, and so was golabjamuns... So I fell asleep hungry. In later years, whenever I was in the bridegrooms party, I remembered this incident and looked to see if any small boy from the bride's side was peeping in the pandal and invited one, at one such wedding to come eat with us, lest some of my uncouth colleagues made a run on the sweets just like Simon mentioned

[Patrice]

Suvir-my knowledge on indian's desserts is quite poor.  I never had the chance to taste any interesting dessert in any restaurant.

On the other side, I like to use some ''Indian's ingredients'' in my desserts.  I love spices: cardamom, saffron, cinnamon.  Most of these spices are perfect pairing for automn or winter fruits.  Apple and cardamom is a fantastic match. Pear also goes very well with theses spices.  Nuts and dried fruits are also fantastic to had flavour  and texture to your desserts.

I never made any classic Indian dessert but, some of the desserts I made were inspired with flavours from India:- Dates tart ( like a tarte tatin ) with pistachio ice cream and saffron creme anglaise.

       - Rice pudding with dried raisins, pine nuts, cardamom ice cream and carrot juice

[Suvir Saran]

Wow.. Rice pudding with carrot juice... Tell us more about this Patrice.

The date tarte tatin sounds very nice too.

What would be a few desserts that you make that you think would pair well with Indian food.

What makes you choose them?

[Patrice]

My rice pudding was infused with some orange zest and some vanille beans. I used a little bit of whipped cream at the end to ''lighten'' it...   When it's time to served it, I put some dried raisns and some pine nut.  It was servred in a big soup bowl, with the carrot juice around the rice.  The carrot juice was freshly pressed, then infused with a little bit of cardamom, citrus zest, some more vanilla and I add sugar.

The cardamom ice cream was put on top.  I liked this dessert a lot but, it wasn't one of the most popular on the menu...

The date tatin was made like a real tatin: some caramel in the bottom of an individual tart mold, a little bit of butter. Then a put the dates on the caramel and it was topped with pâte feuilletée. These tart were kept in the cooler and cooked at the order. The pistachio ice cream was served on the side, with the safforn anglaise.

Poached or roasted fruits can also work very well with indian food: poached pear  in spiced cardamom siryp with some crushed pistachio nougatine ( pistachio in hard caramel). Roasted pineapple with cinnamon.

Other american desserts can also work very well: a good carrot cake with some nuts and spices...

I'm really interested in knowing more things on indian desserts.

[Suvir Saran]

Patrice did you read the thread thus far? Does it help at all answer your questions?

Shall we start a new thread?

What do you want to know?

[Patrice]

Your Sheer Khurma seems very interesting, it's something I would like to experimrnt with.

When your talking about '' ghee'' what is it exactly?

[Suvir Saran]

Sheer Khurma is a vermicelli (very fine Indian vermicelli) pudding.

Ghee is clarified butter.

I take Half and Half and reduce it by half.  

In a wok I take ghee (clarified butter) and sauté chopped pistachios, almonds, charoli nuts, chopped pitted dried mejdool dates, and raisins.  Set them aside.

In the same wok I add more ghee and fry the vermicelli till golden brown.  Set aside.

In a small frying pan, I toast some saffron strands till dark red but not burnt.  Toss the strands into a mortar and grind into a fine powder using the pestle.  Set aside.

When the milk is reduced, add the vermicelli and the nuts and dried fruits.

Add half the saffron and cook until most of the milk is absorbed.

Remove from flame and chill.

Take a tablespoon or two of heavy cream. Mix the saffron powder into it.  Garnish the chilled bowl of sheer khurma with the saffron cream.

I also use toasted and powdered pistachio for a garnish and some gold leaf.

PS:  Indian vermicelli can be found in Indian stores.  I use the lighter noodles and the brand imported from Pakistan.  It is finer and nice to cook with.

[stellabella]

Almonds, pistachios, coconut, cashewnuts, saffron, chirnoji nuts, dates and lotus seeds are used in the preparation of kheer.  And the way one brings the essential oils from these ingredients into  the Kheer is by sauteeing them in Ghee.  

[i have made a few kheers with pastas and grains where I've added coconut milk, jaggery, raisins, spices and ghee (repeat after me, ghee is good) and been quite happy--so I know it is possible.]

i am a novice here, but so far indian sweets are knocking my socks off.

i learned besan burphi at my first cooking class and have since made it at home three times--i love the slightly grainy texture and the dense creaminess of it--and because i make it i control the amount of sugar that goes in--i add ground cardamom seed with a heavy hand and prefer crushed pistachio for the topping, with a bit more cardamom in the nuts.  it is the intense aromatic flavor of the spices that wins me.

second class i learned khir.  my teacher, usha, uses vermicelli in her recipes and large golden raisins.  this was a very MILDLY sweetened  rice pudding, again the overriding scent of cardamom in warm cooked milk being the key attraction.

steven, i posted on the general board about my love of mango and sweet sticky rice.  coconut milk rocks my world, but some of the most talented and accomplished cooks and food-ologists i know LOATHE all things coconut.  you love it or hate it.  i find some asian desserts odd, too, but many of them i really love, especially as a follow-up to a well-spiced, well-prepared asian meal.  fried banana?  yech.  burphi? mmmmm......

[Steve Klc]

Stellab--I think one of the themes that comes through from reading Suvir is that there is a wealth of joy to be derived from Indian desserts, flavors and concepts--but only if you make them yourself at home.  Satisfaction in this area is virtually unobtainable here in the States otherwise.  Suvir and I are planning a visit to Mantra in Boston soon and we will report back as far as their treatment.

I'm with you as far as the mystery and potential that coconut, cardamom and other "Asian" flavors possess.  My favorite dessert from that Indian restaurant consulting project of mine in NYC was the coconut milk panna cotta, served in a beautiful crystal candle votive, hiding a ball of rice cooked in coconut milk and coconut water with the merest hint of cardamom, covered with a thin layer of Inniskillin icewine gelee and a tiny brunoise of asian pear.

It wasn't Indian, it wasn't French, but it was elegant and that combination spoke to me, following the spicy, assertive Indian cuisine well.

At the time, I never tried it with "sticky rice" but just might do something creamy with sticky rice in the near future, so I'll try to report back to you.

And I think you've also hit on the truest way to evaluate and assess Asian desserts--in the context of an Asian meal.  You could evaluate things in isolation--but the more valid critique is to assesses how a dessert fits in relation to the meal and cuisine which preceded it--whether that be Asian, French, authentic or supposed "fusion."

[Patrice]

I went to Mantra about 2 months ago for lunch.  We had the same tasting menu offered for dinner. The food was good in general, the main course, lamb with foie gras was really great.  We didn't had the chance to choose our desserts, we were served a chocolate trio...

Maybe it's better to choose à la carte.

[foodietraveler]

Stellab--I think one of the themes that comes through from reading Suvir is that there is a wealth of joy to be derived from Indian desserts, flavors and concepts--but only if you make them yourself at home.  Satisfaction in this area is virtually unobtainable here in the States otherwise.  Suvir and I are planning a visit to Mantra in Boston soon and we will report back as far as their treatment.

I'm with you as far as the mystery and potential that coconut, cardamom and other "Asian" flavors possess.  My favorite dessert from that Indian restaurant consulting project of mine in NYC was the coconut milk panna cotta, served in a beautiful crystal candle votive, hiding a ball of rice cooked in coconut milk and coconut water with the merest hint of cardamom, covered with a thin layer of Inniskillin icewine gelee and a tiny brunoise of asian pear.

It wasn't Indian, it wasn't French, but it was elegant and that combination spoke to me, following the spicy, assertive Indian cuisine well.

At the time, I never tried it with "sticky rice" but just might do something creamy with sticky rice in the near future, so I'll try to report back to you.

And I think you've also hit on the truest way to evaluate and assess Asian desserts--in the context of an Asian meal.  You could evaluate things in isolation--but the more valid critique is to assesses how a dessert fits in relation to the meal and cuisine which preceded it--whether that be Asian, French, authentic or supposed "fusion."

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Steve Klc, could you share a recipe for this panna cotta? It sound tasty. If you can not share recipe, maybe you have picture to share. It sounds like very attractive dessert and also nice in taste. Just what we need for Indian food these days. This was great discussion. Thank you.