"I was FLOORED!"

[Luckylies]

As a server, I have ALOT of beefs  , but the one that really gets me is how people do not know which cutlery to use, which side plate, ect.  Do people actually think that the reson I gave them that great steak knife was to cut their caesar salad with?? Or is it really for their next coarse, which would be steak.  Why would we use this little knife on this butter plate when I have 2 of these big knives?? I think I'll use this large plate that you've placed in front of me for my bread.  You mean it's actually for my Cobb salad?? I could go on and on but hey, it's Christmas!!  

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I'm floored... I thought this kind of atttitude had all but dissapeared from fine dining. It is most important that the patron get a fine dining experiance. right? I know all of my knives and forks (well mostly) and could care less which one I use. I tend to err towards formality, but would never effect the dining experiance of my company by being a stickler. sometimes my friends or dining companions are not as well versed on "forks" and I make a point of not noticing or following their lead. The idea that my server is leaning over my sholder judging my cutlery decisions (insted of say, refilling my wine, doing somethingof relative importance)floors me.

[TheFoodTutor]

I tend to err towards formality, but would never effect the dining experiance of my company by being a stickler. sometimes my friends or dining companions are not as well versed on "forks" and I make a point of not noticing or following their lead. The idea that my server is leaning over my sholder judging my cutlery decisions (insted of say, refilling my wine, doing somethingof relative importance)floors me.

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Someone seems to be missing the point here: The server doesn't actually care whether you use the right fork for the salad or the right knife for your entree. All things being equal, however, the server would prefer that, when he or she has hunted high and low to find a polished steak knife, brought out a marking tray and marked your place setting with said steak knife, that you not then use the steak knife before getting your steak, pile it on your salad plate with the rest of the silver and then insist it be taken away, so that said server must once again hunt high and low for a polished steak knife, bring it out on a marking tray and re-mark your place setting.

And the reason why the server doesn't want you to do this is? Because this is exactly the sort of thing that will take him or her away from things of relative importance, such as pouring more wine. The server is not looking to snob you, but rather trying to do things in as efficient a manner as possible, so that he or she can be at your service for anything else you might need.

[nr706]

I went to a New Year's Eve party a few years ago, and brought a magnum of vintage Deutz Champagne (don't remember the vintage). I was pleased at the obvious excitement on the face of the host as I handed it to him, until he announced to the crowd "Who'd like a kir? Who's like a Bellini?" He seemed a little disappointed when I said I'd take mine straight. But it was my fault, I guess. I should have brought a fine bottle of non-vintage Andre or Tott's.

[Mabelline]

Although I was brought up thoroughly schooled in cuttlery usage, I find it outmoded and very prejudicial. If you were serving a Chinese Ambassador, for instance, would you sign him out to the outlands because of his knife knowledge or skill? I feel a skilled server would quietly and confidentially inform that guest that they surely would prefer to keep their specially selected steak knife?

Now on a different front.I go to a lot of powwows and rendevous' where people tote the sharpest knives I've ever seen. I love watching them in use.

[phaelon56]

One of the notes in my great grandmother's journal refers to lovage, a particular favorite of mine in the herb garden, and in the next sentence she wonders whatever happened to "smallage" which was apparently some kind of "salat" green, known in the time of Elizabeth I, but seemlingly no common mentions of it afterwards. 

Did the name change to something else that rapidly or did it suffer a blight that destroyed all known plants? 

Other people have wondered also and have written about it.

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I think it suffered from the Starbucks Syndrome and is now referred to as "tallage"

[mrbigjas]

i'm sorry for being kind of off-topic, but this thread is cracking me up, because every time you guys are going, i'm floored by this, and that and i'm floored by the other thing, i imagine you doing one of those 'flip-takes' (as coined by lileks.com) that they used to have in old comic strips when the one character would say the punch line and the other one would kinda flop backwards onto the floor... here's what i'm talking about at lileks.com. (to keep this marginally food-related, that site is also the home of the gallery of regrettable food, which we've discussed on here many times before--but if you haven't seen it, check it out).

anyway i have this mental image of sitting in a restaurant and someone saying something ignorant and several CRASHes happen as egulleteers in earshot are bowled over by what they just heard.

or going to someone's house for dinner and someone says they won't eat vegetables and the hostess, carrying the turkey in from the kitchen, crashes to the floor from the shock of it all.

or just in general being in public and people just thudding over, knocking into dish racks, bars, etc as they are repeatedly floored by everything they hear. someone should put up a sign: WATCH FOR FLOORING EGULLET PEOPLE.

[Mabelline]

How about a big ole sign outfront warning: Beware of FALLING INDIGNANT DINNERS! (?) Works for me.

[Bacchusrogue]

Give me 8 hours, 3 people, wine, converstaion and natural ingredients and I'll give you one of the best nights in your life. Outside of this forum - there would be no takers.

But inside this forum there very much would be takers!! After all I live in Toronto too

And hey I would trade meals!!

And the odd thing is my mother made everything from scratch and I learned that from her (though didnt start cooking until in my mid thirties)

And now thats shes 87, she uses instant mixes a lot!! She grew up in england with a mother and uncle who ran a bakery, a uncle who made candies and another uncle who ran a greenhouse and supplied restaurants and grocery stores. She never lacked for good food even during the dirty thirties(except for the war years when she was in the air force)

Edited December 22, 2004 by Bacchusrogue (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

. If you were serving a Chinese Ambassador, for instance, would you sign him out to the outlands because of his knife knowledge or skill? I feel a skilled server would quietly and confidentially inform that guest that they surely would prefer to keep their specially selected steak knife?

It is not the place of the server to do such a thing, particularly if the knife is now covered in caesar dressing or butter for the bread, for several reasons. For one, it is usually obtrusive to suggest such a thing when trying to clear plates, which is an activity best done as quietly as possible, so as not to disturb conversation at the table. Also, most people don't like salad dressing on their steaks, so keeping the knife isn't an attractive option. And, of course, pointing out an etiquette gaff, which the server would be doing in this case, because he or she would be pointing out that the honored Ambassador did, indeed, use the wrong knife, is in itself the worst etiquette gaff of all. Even if that's the absolute last steak knife in the room, and taking it away means the server must hightail it back to the dish room, wash it by hand and polish it, bringing it, still steaming, on a marking tray to the waiting Ambassador, who at this point has a sad puppy-dog look on his face, because he's wondering how he'll cut his steak, that is what must be done. Removing a dirty knife from a salad plate and just placing it at the Ambassador's side is not ever an option.

And this is why every fine dining server I've ever known has this sort of thing on their list of top pet peeves, and it's something we only gripe about to one another in private. I'm terribly sorry if hearing about this phenomenon has upset anyone.

Carry on.

[winegeek]

One newly learned lesson has been to never post anything negative after having an incredibly challenging day at work. My recent post concerning guests use of plates and cutlery was posted after one such day. In hindsight, bad timing

However, I would like to address a few things. For ladyyoung, You mentioned the word stupid a fair number of times in your reply to my post. I never once used the work stupid in referring to my guests actions, but I guess that is what you read into it and I can understand why.

To luckylies; concerning my attitude. I was brought up by a mother who taught me good etiquette and good manners. I was taught which forks and plates to use at an early age and as far as I know, good etiquette and manners have never gone out of style, it only seems that way. I still pull chairs out for my guests, help them remove and put their coats on, call men "sir" no matter their age, ect.

The food tutor answered for me regarding informing my guests on the proper cutlery to use. I would never try to educate my guests; it is not my right nor is it good practice if you wish to remain employed in the restaurant industry. Another very strong point that was made is every time I have to do "mise-en-place" for a second or third time takes away valuable time that I could be spending better servicing my guests needs.

For those of you who have never worked in the fine dining industry, I believe that you would better understand my point after having done so. Reading my post made me come across as someone who hates his job. I very much enjoy what I do, and I know that I convey that to my guests on an ongoing basis.

[Luckylies]

One newly learned lesson has been to never post anything negative after having an incredibly challenging day at work.  My recent post concerning guests use of plates and cutlery was posted after one such day.  In hindsight, bad timing

However, I would like to address a few things.  For ladyyoung, You mentioned the word stupid a fair number of times in your reply to my post.  I never once used the work stupid in referring to my guests actions, but I guess that is what you read into it and I can understand why.

To luckylies; concerning my attitude.  I was brought up by a mother who taught me good etiquette and good manners. I was taught which forks and plates to use at an early age and as far as I know, good etiquette and manners have never gone out of style, it only seems that way.  I still pull chairs out for my guests, help them remove and put their coats on, call men "sir" no matter their age, ect.

The food tutor answered  for me regarding informing my guests on the proper cutlery to use. I would never try to educate my guests; it is not my right nor is it good practice if you wish to remain employed in the restaurant industry. Another very strong point that was made is every time I have to do "mise-en-place" for a second or third time takes away valuable time that I could be spending better servicing my guests needs.

For those of you who have never worked in the fine dining industry, I believe that you would better understand my point after having done so.  Reading my post made me come across as someone who hates his job.  I very much enjoy what I do, and I know that I convey that to my guests on an ongoing basis.

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I didn't mean to lack compassion for the obvious tedium and annoyance that fixing things for others can bring on. Nobody likes to have to do their job twice, especially when it's because of the mistakes of others. For this I am completely sympathentic (this feeling runs through all professions) yet, some how it never floors me when people muck up an otherwise well-oiled machine.

[Mabelline]

Okay, then. One last question. How many sharp knives do you all keep in your upper class boo-boo joints. Because out here in the hinterlands, we talk to custiomers, and we usually try to supply everyone with appropriate cuttlery. Food Tutor, thank you for telling me how to act in company. I've done over 50 years without any grievous harm so far.

[Tess]

And this is why every fine dining server I've ever known has this sort of thing on their list of top pet peeves, and it's something we only gripe about to one another in private. I'm terribly sorry if hearing about this phenomenon has upset anyone.

Carry on.

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I wasn't aware that this was a private board for food servers.

I agree with a lot of your points but I think you're going way too far in some respects. People who gripe after calling a help line are not griping about their own customers; they're the customer in that situation. [Edited to add: Sorry; I see that I misread that particular sentence of yours.]

I've dined with people who I know are a nightmare to serve for just the kinds of reasons that were described, but it's not usually ignorance. They're distracted; they're carrying on a conversation; maybe they've been drinking or are just rude. They shouldn't be doing that. I agree, but usually it's not that they really don't know.

Edited December 22, 2004 by Tess (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

Okay, then. One last question. How many sharp knives do you all keep in your upper class boo-boo joints. Because out here in the hinterlands, we talk to custiomers, and we usually try to supply everyone with appropriate cuttlery.

Well, in the upscale restaurants where I have worked, of course we try to have as many sharp knives on hand as possible. And in restaurant world, there's usually a sort of "Christmas" time, right after inventory has been taken, when new items can be procured, broken out and used, and for a short time, there is enough for everyone. But after what seems like a terribly short time, certain items sprout legs and walk out, or they get broken, lost or accidentally thrown away. Steak knives and pepper mills tend to be items always in short supply. I can't speculate as to why, though I'm sure there are theories around.

Food Tutor, thank you for telling me how to act in company. I've done over 50 years without any grievous harm so far.

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I didn't mean to be tell anyone how to act in company, but rather I'm more or less quoting from Judith Martin's columns on how servers should act, as she has addressed this issue several times. I didn't think you'd indicated that you're a server, so my comments were directed toward my behavior and winegeek's.

And whether you're a server or not, you don't have to agree with Judith Martin or myself. Etiquette is hardly law, after all. I'm am sincerely sorry if you felt that I was telling you how to act.

[TheFoodTutor]

I wasn't aware that this was a private board for food servers.

Correct. I meant to say that, generally, this is something we gripe about amongst ourselves only.

In this case, winegeek vented frustrations after a long day, and I was apologizing for that fact, though I'm not actually acquainted with winegeek or anything. And I will do so again.

I am sorry, very sorry, and I will personally not vent my frustrations about my own job, plus I will take care to alleviate any suffering caused by any servers who vent their frustrations here on eGullet.

Anyone who feels this is not good enough may send me a request by PM for a personal, hand-written apology, in triplicate, notarized and signed in blood. May I only further apologize for any delays that travelling by land courier may cause.

Yours,

TheFoodTutor

[Tess]

Food Tutor, I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very nice. I'm assuming this was a big misunderstanding in both directions. Sorry for my part in it.

[TheFoodTutor]

Food Tutor, I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very nice. I'm assuming this was a big misunderstanding in both directions. Sorry for my part in it.

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No harm done, and no ill feelings. I'm sure any misunderstandings will be cleared up shortly.

[Tess]

No harm done, and no ill feelings. I'm sure any misunderstandings will be cleared up shortly. 

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Cool! Thanks.

[Mabelline]

I really don't try to get too 'redneck' or contentious when I talk about a topic like such. I figure that I usually ask a pretty straighton question. If I am being rude in your opinion, then please inform me, and I'll make a conscious effort to get more civile.

By the way, while not a server, have been one...am in a constant state of admiration for those who do so nowadays. It was different when I worked. People were not such raptors as I have witnessed; either that or my own perception has tilted.

[winegeek]

After all this bantering over what seemed to be a minor issue, I now officially feel even worse for my "trying" day

[winesonoma]

See this is what happens when you don't bring your own stuff. I like to bring my own silverware and steak knife cause my stuffs better. I got tired of lugging the plates napkins and serving stuff, cause the roll around suitcase took up to much room. Yes I have my own corkscrew and bottle of wine. I would never want to put out a hard working server. Buy the way my glasses are Riedel and my wine is homemade cause I don't like to see anyone work. As long as you let me clean up after myself I'll leave a tip.

[winegeek]

After all this bantering over what seemed to be a minor issue, I now officially feel even worse for my "trying" day

[ladyyoung98]

your  "beef" floors  me...apparantly  you work  in  a high end  establishment that caters  to the  more monied  patrons..which leads  me  to wonder what you are  doing  working there  when such snobbery  shows a  very  shallow  mentality...

has it  never occured  to you  that the  type of people  who can afford to eat in such a place  didnt  get  into  the  postions  they are  in by  being  stupid  and not  being  able to read  people?  Do  you think  that  each and  every  person  who crosses  the threshhold  to  the  establishment you work in wasnt  born with a silver spoon in their mouhts...let  alone really care  what  fork is  for the salad  or  seafood..or  escargot...or  which  knife is  used for  what  or even which plate is  used for  what...these  same  people  that you  are  putting  down are not  stupid  by any means...they  could not be  stupid  and have the  kind of  money that they do..and most..if not all...are  extremely good  at picking up  what you may  be thinking  ...perhaps  not the  words  themselves...but  facial  expression or  body  language..even the  tiniest thing  that hints  at  disdain  can be picked up..body language...no  matter  how  much you try to hide it... speaks  so much more than you know..and  remember  these  same people are the  ones  paying you the  tips  you seemingly  dont  deserve...bear in mind..its  NOT always  great  service  that gets  you the  best tips....and  its not  how well you can kiss somebodys  butt..... but  rather the  genuine  courtesy and  respect  you show them....

the  next time  you have a  patron in your  establishment ..who  doesnt  know  the  difference   between what to use  for  what  you might  want to remember  these people are not  as stupid  as  YOU  think they are..also  bear in mind...there is also the possibility  that  there  are  people  here on eg  who also  eat  where you work and airing the  views  you have  aired in such  a  public  forum is  not always  the  best  thing...next time try a  little tolerance  and understanding  as im  sure  that even you  at one time in your  life  didnt know the  difference  either

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Don't you think this reaction seems a little harsh, ladyyoung? I looked back at winegeek's post, and she didn't imply that she thought these patrons were "stupid" as you assert. Being a regular patron of many types of restaurants and someone who has worked all manner of positions in a wide variety of restaurants, it does seem to be a clear trend that people do not pay attention to hardly any of the social norms around dining. In the city where I live, people routinely engage in behavior that is either mildly annoying to the server (using the wrong silver, necessitating extra trips to replace it) or disruptive to other guests (allowing small children to run through the dining room) while in a fine dining restaurant.

Further, I think that your assumption that "high end establishments" that cater to "the monied set" who "could not be stupid and have the money that they do" is unwarranted. There are many places in my neighborhood that have the sort of service described by winegeek where the prices, particularly at lunchtime, are not prohibitive for virtually anyone to eat there. I can name a number of fine dining establishments that offer salads large enough to split for $7, half portions of pasta (which still turn out to be quite large) for $7 and entrees ranging as low as $10. To assume that the average, everyday worker making even a very modest income could never afford to dine in such a place would be to assume wrong.

The tone of your post suggests to me that you have been snobbed at some point, so it's an issue to which you are sensitive. For that, I am sorry, but two wrongs do not make a right, and telling a server that she "seemingly doesn't deserve" the tips she earns is not any nicer than telling any other professional on these boards that they don't deserve whatever salary they make because they griped about someone who was seemingly clueless when they called a Tech Support line, for instance.

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i looked back at the post as well..and while it wasn specifically said that they were stupid...it came across exceptionally well with seemingly a great deal of sarcasm...and just so you know...no i personally have never been snobbed in my life but ive seen it happen to others and quite frankly i think it stinks..the implication to such a thing suggesting to the person doing the snubbing that the person being snubbed is somehow beneath them..i was raised with the idea that everybody is equal..that no one person is better than another ...rich, poor or in between...so if this is an issue im sensitive about...it isnt for the reason you came up with....its because of how i was raised to beleive and how i have seen such snobbery affect others...

when i say high end establishments i wasnt talking about the same type of places you were talking about...think menus that have no prices on them..think places that have escargot and beluga caviar and pate de foi gras (hope i spelled that right) and don perignon...all these things and others that we asscoaite with expensive restaurants...and these are the places i had in mind that use specific silverware for specific purposes etc.....

with that being said

winegeek...im truly sorry you had a bad day yesterday..we all have them no matter where we work...if i came off as being way too harsh please read what i said above and that will give you the reasons why i thought and said what i did.... and accpet my apology for adding to your already stress filled day.....my mother also worked in the food service industry and she made a lot of her money in tips and she also taught us that there are certain industries where a good portion of what one earns also comes from those same tips.... and she put up with a lot of crap while working and never complaining about it overly much ...she also taught us that respect is somethig you earn and is not an automtic right and that courtesy costs nothing...as for the venting...im a very firm beleiver that venting is good for a person and to hold it all in and never let it out can be costly in many ways.....but there are also times when you need to be careful of how a thing is expressed and where it is expressed....im not saying this wasnt the right place or the right time....but i am saying that you left out the one detail that could have avoided most if not all of what i originally said to begin with...i do try to be careful of the things that i say as i know things can be hurtful when said....had you let it be known that you had had a very bad and frustrating day..i know myself well enough to know that my reaction would have been completely different......probably much more sympathetic...under most circumstances im a reasonable person....

and quite frankly while i do have a passing knwoledge of the different silverware and what its used for...for me if im not using something for the thing its supposed to be used for....it has a whole lot to do with the fact that i dont want to dirty another thing that somebody else has to wash...again i do apologize for adding to your stress full day

Edited December 23, 2004 by ladyyoung98 (log)

[TheFoodTutor]

when i say high end  establishments  i wasnt  talking  about the  same  type  of  places  you  were  talking  about...think  menus  that have  no prices on them..think  places  that have escargot  and  beluga  caviar and  pate  de foi gras (hope i spelled that right)  and  don  perignon...all these  things  and others that we  asscoaite  with expensive  restaurants...and  these  are  the places    i had in  mind  that use  specific  silverware  for  specific  purposes  etc.....

Yes, I'm quite familiar with a wide variety of upper end restaurants, as my SO is a chef at one of them, and I've worked there as well, on occasions when they need me to help out. And I've worked at and dined in other places similar to what you've described. And, with very few exceptions, many of the priciest restaurants allow diners to order a la carte, so having a $7 salad as an entree might seem unthinkable to you and I at such a place, there are quite a few people who make less than $20K/year who are aware that it's possible to dine in that kind of establishment without breaking their budgets. Seriously, before I started working in high end places, I assumed that most people, like myself, figured that if they didn't have around $60-100 per person to drop on food and beverage for dinner, and possibly a good deal more, or perhaps $30-60 at lunch, they shouldn't even enter a place like that. But I was wrong. I am clearly a member of the minority in my thinking.

But no matter, since I've already discussed this ad nauseum in another thread. The fact is that in this city, you can have one of the nicest tasting menus available for $85 per person, and if your beverage of choice is tap water, you really don't need to spend much more than that, aside from mandatory sales tax and optional gratuity. That amount is not out of the reach of even people I know who haven't graduated high school.

So, if someone owned a million dollar yacht, I'd probably be correct in assuming that they did quite a bit to get it, or else they inherited quite a bit. But if I see someone dining at Seeger's or the Ritz-Carlton, I'd probably be wrong to assume that he or she was a doctor or lawyer, rather than a garbage collector or, possibly, a waitress.

[ladyyoung98]

quote from the food tutor

"Seriously, before I started working in high end places, I assumed that most people, like myself, figured that if they didn't have around $60-100 per person to drop on food and beverage for dinner, and possibly a good deal more, or perhaps $30-60 at lunch, they shouldn't even enter a place like that. But I was wrong. I am clearly a member of the minority in my thinking.

"

i guess my thinking makes me part of that mnority as well.......

Edited December 23, 2004 by ladyyoung98 (log)