Overrated/Underrated

[Bux]

Haven't been to Sumile. It's probably because they don't get enough play. I've had one meal at L'Impero and liked it very much. If it's over hyped, and I'd have to have a few more meals to make that decision, it can't be by all that much. Anyway, what I like most about the restaurant was the food.

Still two out of three ain't bad. I just didn't get as excited by the tasting room as most others have been and Oceana, although I've only had two meals with Gallagher in the kitchen, was a real prize, though the meals don't come cheaply. Anyway, the food is fantastic, the room is very handsome, the service has been excellent and the size of the dining room as well as the location in a small building, bring fond restaurant memories of a past era--or at least the best of that era, the food is very contemporary--to mind. The food is, by the way, the reason to go.

WD-50 isn't particularly under hyped, but it remains the best restaurant I know of where reservations need not be gotten far in advance.

Blue Hill will always seem under hyped to me, at least until it's got a minimun of three stars from the NY Times and two from Michelin.

[mikeycook]

Maybe this has been done here before and my search skills weren't up to finding it, but some items in recent threads made me reflect that there are some restaurants where I can't understand why they don't get more attention than they do from the NYC foodie community, and some others that I can't understand what the big deal is.  I thought it would be interesting to see other people's lists of those categories.  Here are a few of of mine, just off the top of my head.  If this thread goes anywhere, I'll supplement as I think of more -- but really I'm interested to see what others have to say.

Why Don't They Get More Play?

Sumile

Oceana

What's The Big Deal?

The Tasting Room

L'Impero

Moderator's Note: The "Overpraised/Underpraised" thread was merged here.

←

I can see if you feel eGulleteers have overrated L'Impero (I am probably one of them), but I think it's impossible to call it overrated in general, because no one outside of eGullet seems to have heard of it or been. I have mentioned it to a lot of people who dine out frequently in the city and are familiar with most of the top places, but it's still a restaurant a lot of people have not tried. I will agree with Bux that it's all about the food at L'Impero, as the service could be better (it is ok, but not "invisible" as it should be). Not only do I think L'Impero is underrated as a restaurant, but I think that Scott Conant is one of most (if not the most) underrated chefs in the city.

By contrast, I went to WD-50 recently and believe it to be overrated. I certainly respect the creativity and it is a meal that I appreciated on an intellectual level, but from a pure taste point of view, I felt it left a lot to be desired. Wylie Dufresne gets a lot of props, from eGulleteers and others, and I feel it has more to do with the fact that his cuisine is cutting edge than with how good it tastes. Even those who praise WD-50 seem to prefer most of the other top avant-garde restaurants in other cities over it (i.e. El Bulli, Alinea, Trio, etc.)

That being said, I do appreciate how active Wylie is in his own kitchen. It is interesting to watch him work while waiting for your food.

Edited December 29, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[rich]

Maybe this has been done here before and my search skills weren't up to finding it, but some items in recent threads made me reflect that there are some restaurants where I can't understand why they don't get more attention than they do from the NYC foodie community, and some others that I can't understand what the big deal is.  I thought it would be interesting to see other people's lists of those categories.  Here are a few of of mine, just off the top of my head.  If this thread goes anywhere, I'll supplement as I think of more -- but really I'm interested to see what others have to say.

Why Don't They Get More Play?

Sumile

Oceana

What's The Big Deal?

The Tasting Room

L'Impero

Moderator's Note: The "Overpraised/Underpraised" thread was merged here.

←

If people didin't have different opinions, they would be no such thing as horse racing - and that would be a tremendous loss. Just eat, drink, enjoy - life is too short for much else.

[M.X.Hassett]

Mikey,

I find that yes WD-50 is cutting edge, intellectual, and trendy(feh), but that it is all about taste and the combinations of textures. But hey we can agree to disagree thats pretty much what this thread will lead to.

Edit: and yes I think it tastes great.

Edited December 29, 2005 by M.X.Hassett (log)

[Sneakeater]

If people didin't have different opinions, they would be no such thing as horse racing - and that would be a tremendous loss. Just eat, drink, enjoy - life is too short for much else.

←

Believe me, I understand that (I mean, shit, I'm a litigator).

I just think that it's actually worthwhile to explore HOW and WHY we differ. You learn things about your own views that way.

Also, I think that in some cases it's just heartening to know that others agree with your minority view.

Edited December 29, 2005 by Sneakeater (log)

[Bond Girl]

Maybe this has been done here before and my search skills weren't up to finding it, but some items in recent threads made me reflect that there are some restaurants where I can't understand why they don't get more attention than they do from the NYC foodie community, and some others that I can't understand what the big deal is.  I thought it would be interesting to see other people's lists of those categories.  Here are a few of of mine, just off the top of my head.  If this thread goes anywhere, I'll supplement as I think of more -- but really I'm interested to see what others have to say.

Why Don't They Get More Play?

Sumile

Oceana

What's The Big Deal?

The Tasting Room

L'Impero

Moderator's Note: The "Overpraised/Underpraised" thread was merged here.

←

I agree with Oceana totally. Neal Gallagher's food rocks big time. Sunile I can take it or leave it.

My own personal "Didn't Know What the Fuss is About" award of the year goes to Cafe at Country-badly cooked and flavorless food, sloppy service and a decor that would be rather dull without the gaudy chandeliers.

But, that's just my 2 cents....

[SobaAddict70]

"I think that when you're making a statement that Restaurant Z is overrated or underrated, that you need to be very careful that you're stating an opinion and not categorizing something as a rule."

--The whole idea is to assert opinions that you feel contradict the rule.

←

A good point, it's just that sometimes there seems to be a "bandwagon effect" and that is what I was objecting to.

Reading the comments are still entertaining though. Maybe I'll get to play one of these days.

[mikeycook]

Mikey,

I find that yes WD-50 is cutting edge, intellectual, and trendy(feh), but that it is all about taste and  the combinations of textures. But hey we can agree to disagree thats pretty much what this thread will lead to.

Edit: and yes I think it tastes great.

←

I don't want you to think I didn't enjoy my meal at WD-50, because I did. However, while a few of the dishes stuck me as truly tasty (the pickled beef tongue, the pork belly), some, such as the corned duck, left my wanting. To me the corned duck is a play on a corned beef sandwich, but it does not really stretch the metaphor too much. And it basically tastes like a corned beef sandwich, with few differences from the original IMHO. That being said, perhaps my choice of dishes was to blame for my less than stellar experience and I certainly plan to go back (the foie gras with candied olives seems right up my alley).

However, I think the real issue of overrated vs. underrated is one of expectations. Wylie Dufresne gets a lot of press and attention (not just on eGullet, but in national publications). Before I went, I had read numerous articles on him, spoken to friends who had eaten there, and read the available posts on eGullet. I would say that I went in with very high expectations. Maybe I was asking to much by expecting El Bulli in NY (not exactly, but the best metaphor I can come up with) and maybe that contributed to my feeling that the place is overrated (and, to be clear, I mean overrated. Not bad, merely not great.)

I think that this definition of overrated explains why people who have never been to Per Se can call it overrated. They are saturated with information on Per Se and Keller and have come to believe (perhaps rightly, perhaps wrongly) that it cannot possibly live up to expectations.

With L'Impero by contrast, even though I knew it had 3 stars from the NY times and had gotten good reviews on eGullet, it was a restaurant that no one I knew had been to and I couldn't have named the chef if given a list of possible names. We tried it purely on a hunch and went in with relatively low expectations which were quickly exceeded. Everyone I have taken with me since has loved it and wondered why they hadn't heard of it before. I consider it underrated even today because so few people outside of eGullet seem to know about it and even fewer have been.

Edited December 29, 2005 by mikeycook (log)

[M.X.Hassett]

Valid points.

I agree with you on the duck.

I have learned that you can do nothing but set yourself up for disappointment if you go anywhere with high expectations. It still happens to me though the most recent example being Rest. Eugene in Atl a few days ago.

I will have to head over to L'Impero one of these days.

[docsconz]

It is nice though when one goes in with absurdly high expectations and they are exceeded. Rare, but great when it happens. El Bulli, Alinea and yes, WD-50 were like that for me.

[mikeycook]

docsconz,

Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I notice when people speak of the avant-garde chefs, they refer to Adria (of course), Achatz, and Dufresne (and sometimes Jose Andres), but I rarely hear Gagnaire or Blumenthal included in the list. Are they considered to be part of the avant-garde movement as the others?

[docsconz]

docsconz,

Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I notice when people speak of the avant-garde chefs, they refer to Adria (of course), Achatz, and Dufresne (and sometimes Jose Andres), but I rarely hear Gagnaire or Blumenthal included in the list.  Are they considered to be part of the avant-garde movement as the others?

←

Mikey, see this thread on avant-garde cuisine for a discussion of the history and influences within the avant-garde, hypermodern or molecular gastronomy movements. By all accounts Gagnaire, Blumenthal and others are major figures in this area. For the purpose of this discussion, even though it is not in New York, Gagnaire was my most disappointing meal of 2005. Despite that, I am not sure that I would say he is overrated as his skill and talent shone through. I just didn't like a lot of what he came up with.

[Brooklyn]

All things considered, Lupa is my favorite restaurant in New York.

The most overrated restaurant in New York in my estimation - The Corner Bistro.

[Pan]

Is Fleur de Sel overrated? After a lunch there a few days ago, I wonder.

[Dryden]

docsconz,

Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I notice when people speak of the avant-garde chefs, they refer to Adria (of course), Achatz, and Dufresne (and sometimes Jose Andres), but I rarely hear Gagnaire or Blumenthal included in the list.  Are they considered to be part of the avant-garde movement as the others?

←

Mikey, see this thread on avant-garde cuisine for a discussion of the history and influences within the avant-garde, hypermodern or molecular gastronomy movements. By all accounts Gagnaire, Blumenthal and others are major figures in this area. For the purpose of this discussion, even though it is not in New York, Gagnaire was my most disappointing meal of 2005. Despite that, I am not sure that I would say he is overrated as his skill and talent shone through. I just didn't like a lot of what he came up with.

←

Not to continue to stray off-topic, but we had the same experience with Gagnaire in 2003. Brilliant talent, but the food combinations just didn't really taste all that good. Huge disappointment for the price.

[greenwich st]

Re Fleur de Sel, overrated was my impression around when it first opened. Nice enough but no cigar! We never returned so I can't really say.

[Bux]

docsconz,

Not to get off on a tangent too much, but I notice when people speak of the avant-garde chefs, they refer to Adria (of course), Achatz, and Dufresne (and sometimes Jose Andres), but I rarely hear Gagnaire or Blumenthal included in the list.  Are they considered to be part of the avant-garde movement as the others?

←

You're asking this question in a NY based forum. The discussion is going to favor those chefs most publicized in local press. It's also a bit of an inbred group so it tends to repeat what it says. If you ask Adrià about Blumenthal, he's most likely going to speak highly of him as part of the avant garde movement. In fact, I believe he did just that in Pedro's Q&A with him, unless I'm thinking of a quote of his elsewhere. Personally, I'd include Gagnaire, but I sense he's less part of a "movement" and more out on his own. In may ways, I might say that about Wylie Dufrense as well. Thus I think they both get lumped into the movement simply because they are looking to stretch the envelope creatively.

i place little value on technique or innovation for its own sake and there's nothing less I want from a chef than to be his guinea pig. I've not had Achatz's cooking, but there was nothing I've had from your other four chefs that I hadn't felt was already worked out in the kitchen (or laboratory, if you will). I didn't necessarily like everything I had, but I was convinced it was a finished and perfected product. Gagnaire has probably presented us with the highs and lows in terms of taste and enjoyment. Our first meal at Gagnaire was so exciting that we returned again quickly in spite of a long list of restaurants we had yet to try in Paris. Nevertheless, I think Doc sums it up nicely when he credits him without the need to having enjoyed his meal.

"I am not sure that I would say he is overrated as his skill and talent shone through. I just didn't like a lot of what he came up with," pretty well sums up, for me, exactly how subjective restaurant appreciation is, and why we fool ourselves if we believe any guide or list or rated restaurants is going to serve us well enough.

[rich]

Now that 2005 has offcially come to an end and I reviewed some records here is what I've come up with:

Overrated:

1. Le Bernardin - simply not as good as most 2005 reviews stated. I think a good PR firm is at work here.

2. Il Mulino - was sponsored at this place in the early part of the year, hadn't been there in ten years. Why this grossly overpriced Italian gets the reviews and keeps its following is one of the world's great mysteries. Could be a special on the History Channel.

3. DiFara Pizza - a late visit (12/30) and addition (in fact, knocked the perennial entry, Peter Luger's off the list). Very good pizza, but not nearly worth a special trip. After thinking about this, I think the draw is watching Mr. DeMarco perform his one-man pizza show. There are many places in the city serving this quality. Haven't figured out why people refer to this as the holy grail of pizza.

Underrated:

1. Landmarc - One of the best values in the city and serves top-notch food with an exceptional wine list. Some places just fly under the radar and this is one. Thankfully, it doesn't get more press or you would never be able to get a table. As Yogi Berra once said, "...the place is too crowded, no one goes there anymore."

2. Mesa Grill - It's very hard to say a Bobby Flay restaurant is underrated, but this one is. Still serving some of the best southwest cuisine in captivity, Mesa Grill doesn't get respect from the foodies or the press. I don't know why, they serve great food at very fair prices, have a great bar and a very nice and reasonably priced wine list. Arguably serves the best brunch in Manhattan (Saturday and Sunday).

3. Aquavit - Maintained high level in new digs. Year in, year out this landmark serves some of the top quality dishes in NYC, yet still manages to avoid the hype given to others. You don't get more consistent food. The problem may stem from a lack of spectacular and showy dishes.

Edited January 3, 2006 by rich (log)

[mikeycook]

Overrated:

1. Le Bernardin - simply not as good as most 2005 reviews stated. I think a good PR firm is at work here.

I would agree with you in the sense that it would be almost impossible to underrate it (i.e. highest marks from Zagat, NYT, Michelin, etc.) My wife at here for my birthday a couple of years ago and had the tasting menu. While tasty and original, it did not make our top ten of city restaurants.

I think that part of my reason for feeling this way is that I was born in Maine and raised in New England and one of the biggest draws of Le Bernardin, namely the quality and freshness of the fish, is something I have had access to all my life. While I enjoyed the tasting menu, I found that only a few of the items truly inspired me (the linguine with sea urchin was one) while several of the others, designed to showcase the taste and texture of the fish, I found less impressive.

Overall I had a good experience, but I would agree that Le Bernardin is overrated given its accolades.

Underrated:

2. Mesa Grill - It's very hard to say a Bobby Flay restaurant is underrated, but this one is. Still serving some of the best southwest cuisine in captivity, Mesa Grill doesn't get respect from the foodies or the press. I don't know why, they serve great food at very fair prices, have a great bar and a very nice and reasonably priced wine list. Arguably serves the best brunch in Manhattan (Saturday and Sunday).

←

I have been curious as to why Flay's restaurants don't get more regard. I have eaten at Mesa Grill and enjoyed it (not a top ten, but I would agree it's underrated) and it always surprises me that for all of the press Flay gets himself, his restaurants get very little.

[mikeycook]

Is Fleur de Sel overrated? After a lunch there a few days ago, I wonder.

←

Personally, I would call Fleur de Sel accurately rated. Went there for my birthday last year and the food was uniformly good, although nothing leaps to mind as being spectacular. That being said, we had the tasting menu with wine and after about the 4th item the menu was a bit of a blur. Personally, I would go to Tocqueville again (which I consider underrated) before Fleur de Sel.

[Sneakeater]

I think the problem is that Flay gets the kind of press that causes serious eaters to underrate his restaurants.

(I agree that Mesa Grill is sort of a prototypical underpraised restaurant. Interestingly (or not), much as I like it, I'd put Landmarc in the "overpraised" category.)

Edited January 3, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Sneakeater]

(FWIW, "overpraised" and "underpraised" are probably better words for what I was trying to talk about here than "overrated" and "underrated". I didn't mean to refer to how many stars restaurants get or how good their reviews are, but rather how much attention they draw from -- I hate this word -- foodies such as the people who post here. For example, Danube has three stars from the Times and two stars from Michelin, but I'd still call it seriously underpraised among people like us. Similarly for the Neil Gallagher-era Oceana, which consistently gets splendid reviews but just doesn't seem to generate much excitement. OTOH, Blue Hill NYC and WD-50 both have only two NYT stars (at least I think Blue Hill NYC has two stars), but they could hardly get a greater amount of favorable attention from the -- I hate this word -- foodie community.)

Edited January 3, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[Bux]

Bobby Flay, who I hear is a very nice guy and great to deal with--I had an unsatisfactory rabbit at Bolo. So did others at my table. It was hard to believe there was anyone in the kitchen who cared. Great tapas however. I left feeling Bolo was overrated and overpraised.

I don't know why Oceana doesn't get better word of mouth. I can't even explain why I don't get there more often other than that it's competing at a fairly high point on the price scale.

In my opinion, Blue Hill and WD-50 deserve all the attention they get from serious diners. For one thing, I believe each is unique and far from the molds that produce many of our good restaurants. Even for those who might not appreciate, or enjoy, either of them, they merit attention and discussion. Neither is just another of its type, or even the best of a type. They are their type. Of course this is highly subjective opinion.

[Sneakeater]

Just to be clear -- and not that I expect anyone to care particularly -- I was absolutely NOT trying to imply in ANY way that I, personally, would consider Blue Hill or WD-50 overpraised or that I don't think they deserve the attention they get. I only meant to try to show that a restaurant can get considerable attention from serious eaters without necessarily having rapturous newspaper or magazine reviews or massive numbers of stars. I.e., that the published reviews aren't necessarily the point here, in that a restaurant can be at an appropriate "praise level" (OMIGOD this is getting pretentious) without them.

Edited January 5, 2006 by Sneakeater (log)

[mikeycook]

I would agree that Blue Hill and WD-50 are both important restaurants to discuss and are somewhat unique in their approach. A year or so ago I might have called Blue Hill "overpraised", at least on eGullet. However, since discussion of it has trailed off somewhere (inevitable when a place has been around a while) I would now called it accurately praised, maybe even borderline underpraised (again, at least on eGullet).

Edited January 5, 2006 by mikeycook (log)