Congrats to Team USA - WPTC

[Wendy DeBord]

I agree completely with you Confiseur when it comes to who represents a country. I don't want to argue and keep going around in circles on this issue.......... because I've written enough on this topic, honestly I don't understand why everyone doesn't agree.

I have to ask to Duckduck and Tan or any others who disagree..........how many pay checks or taxes do you have to pay to a country to become offically one of them enough to represent them in a world event? Two pay checks, two years of paying taxes? Seriously, how much? Do you have to live in a country for 3 weeks, 3 years, 3 days.......is it when you wake up one day and say "I like it here, I want to live here." ?

There has to be some sort of standard or competitions become meaningless if people can cross borders and countries in minutes. And yes, I'd be happy to tell these nice talented people they have to follow the rules. They have to follow the rules once they particapate.

I believe the only logical standard is citizenship. Thats something that all countries acknowledge and can follow with-out alot of fuss.

[duckduck]

Actually, it's my understanding that it's not the truth in sporting events. Someone just told me that Greece was so hard up for athletes in certain events that they have changed the rulings for things so that in order to represent Greece you can be 2nd or 3rd generation meaning if your parents or grandparents are from Greece, you can be on their teams. It's my understanding that their soccer teams are mostly made up of Americans.

[tan319]

As far as "fair" goes. little in life is.

There is one big difference in the Vegas cup and the other international competitions from what I can see.

The others are put together by governments (?) and the one here is put on by a magazine owner and an American (former?) pastry chef and businessman.

It's their show, take it or leave it.

They decide the rules.

I doubt that many US wannabe contestants are going to protest too much, there's too much at stake, specutively, for their careers.

Will Bajard and those guys stay home next year?

Perhaps, but many others would probably welcome the chance to compete.

So, we could talk this one until we're blue in the face but until Schenider is convinced otherwise, and I doubt that's going to happen, and I don't know if it really even should, nothing's going to change.

Because, IMHO, there's not enough Americans practicing this old school stuff to be better then those guys.

When FTV broadcasted that wedding cake comp., it excited me because everyone of those contestants were expressing themselves in their individual way.

That was exciting!

This comp. is so rigid, everything looks more or less alike, it just seems frozen in time to me.

I appreciate the talent, I really do, but, damn...

Why don't they change the format a bit and call it,"Battle of the M.O.F's."?

[duckduck]

I think it's all just an agree to disagree situation. The first time someone comes in with just a couple of paychecks earned in this country and wins the world competition as a US competitor, I'm sure they'll probably put in some new rule. Until then, I doubt anyone will lose much sleep over it. Over all, despite some people's issues with the details, it is a great competition and I do hope you come out and join us next time. We had a blast!

[Wendy DeBord]

Man, I can't seem to express myself clearly......please be patient.

Let me try again, please. I agree with both of you, your right. Rules change, life isn't fair.........I agree to all of that. Pretend your Micheal S. and your in control to make the rules. Don't you think having rules that apply to everyone all of the time and sticking to them, makes your event more crediable?

Are you saying the whole system is corrupt and there isn't any reason to make rules and hold every country and competitior to the same exact standards?

I do understand they're doing these border crossing tactics in sports, I also think it's wrong to do in those arenas too. WHEN we are representing countries competing internationally citizenship should be relavent, in my opinion. When its just an exhibition, who cares....I agree with you there.

I'm trying to say we should keep things from being corrupt..........teams representing a nation should not be allowed to buy in players. Prevent people from using these international events to their own personal advantage by having rules everyone must adhear to. Have set standards.

It seems like you guys have just given up......thats the way it is, oh well, no? Neither of you had a specific answer to my question about how long or how much money or taxes do you have to pay, to be considered a representitive of a country. Even if you think the event is dumb, still would you take a moment and tell me/us what the rules 'should be' if things were fair, if you had to write the rules?

[duckduck]

I don't see this event as corrupt or becoming corrupt. Who thinks the event is dumb? I got lost here somehwere, Wendy. Yes, I'm giving up because it's just picking apart a really, truly great event that a lot of people work very hard on and it's being picked apart for the sake of arguing online. This had taken a spiral downward and become negative and I hate to see that. We originally came in to share the amazing things we saw and experienced. I'm going to step out to hopefully help this whole argument fizzle out. It's all opinion and like I said before...let's just agree to disagree.

[Wendy DeBord]

Gosh I'm not at all critisizing this event, I hope others don't take it that way. No, I'm just trying to talk about one specific issue that I think should be regulated, thats all I've posted on. I have not posted one negative thing about this event, because I think it's a really cool event. It's not about argueing for the sake of argueing. I've tried to make my point yes, guilty. But in doing so I'm seriously trying to understand what people that oppose this point really think, specificly how you would regulate this or why specificly you don't think it needs regulating. To me it's not logical that this issue not be regulated unless you don't think this is an important world event in our profession.

In order for things to grow discussions take place. This is one of the rare places where many professionals meet and can discuss topics relivant to our profession. We do have influence when we work together, just bringing up issues that the 'people in charge' will see is helpful to them too. Micheal S. might not always like everything written here, but I believe he comes here to communicate too. This is a great forum for conversation in real time. It's not about bashing at all!! Hopefully we all take the good and the bad and learn from it.

[duckduck]

I just feel that the point had been made. And I'm sure it's been argued in a larger arena than eGullet by people much more influential. (not that our opinion isn't important...that's not what I'm saying here) How loud and long does it need to be shouted to realize that we just don't agree on it? Sometime it all comes across just a little bit intense. But I honestly believe that we are here with the same purpose over all to share and help the pastry industry grow.

[chocophile]

Wendy:

I just want to weigh in on this issue of team membership and representation.

The WPTC is not an "official" international event in the sense that there are no national sactioning bodies answering to an international co-ordinating body as is the case with the International Olympic Committee and the various national committees.

Teams are not "officially" representing their countries as there is no coordinating body whose job it is to pick a "national" team and no international coordinating body whose job it is to pick a "world's best."

The WPTC is a commercial event, and the organizers work with individuals and organizations local to each country who pick teams to represent them. It is up to each country to decide how they choose who will represent them. In the case of the WPTC, it is the National Pastry Team Championship competition that determines the US team for the WPTC. Teams are chosen, I understand, through peer consensus that team members have what it takes to compete. Teams are identified by the name of their captain and can be assembled from anywhere with the only stipulation being that team members must actually work in the US. Team captains choose who they want on their team, and the team bears sole responsibility for the cost of training. Sounds fair to me. The winning team at the Nationals becomes the US team at the Worlds irrespective of the country(ies) of origin of the members.

When there is the equivalent infrastructure of the Olympics or the World Cup then some more rigorous standard may need to be applied. The situation is more akin to the European Football league where Beckham plays for Real Madrid - a Brit on a championship Spanish team.

In the meantime, Carymax is free to set the rules as it sees fit. The fact that the rules change should not be perceived to be corrupt, but as an acknowledgement that the system is always striving to become more perfect. If a team does not, cannot, or will not agree to abide by the rules then they don't have to compete.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that in many competitions the "winner" is often not the "best," but the person or team that makes the fewest mistakes. If the rules call for wearing gloves and a team does not wear them, they lose points. And - they have no one to blame but themselves. In this case, not wearing gloves (or not stacking chablons or not leaving dirty dishes in the sink at the end of the day) is the difference between 1st and 2nd place. The same thing was true for the French. Too many ingredients prepared in advance -- contravening rules they should have been aware of -- and they lose points. How many points were deducted we may never know, but perhaps enough to make the difference between a 2nd and a 3rd place finish. With NO changes in the actual work produced and simply paying attention to the rules the finish could easily have been Belgium, France, US. In the end, it is the team manager's, team captain's, and team members' fault for not knowing what the rules are and following them precisely. One way to interpret the display of emotion by the Belgian and French teams is that they wanted to place the blame for losing on someone else rather than shouldering responsibility for the rule infractions that they knew probably cost them victory.

Knowing a little bit about the scoring for competitions, Carymax has done a great deal to address what they perceive to be the shortcomings of other judging systems and the WPTC and NPTC are far more open than any other similar competition anywhere. Jacques Torres has a very difficult job, but I believe that he, the other judges, and the organizers went out of their way to let everyone know about the decisions they were making - decisions they knew could have a direct effect on the outcome.

As I also mentioned earlier, and echoing Steve's comments about there being a French-style of work. Well, Western European, anyway. Take a close look at the sugar pieces produced by Japan and South Korea in Neil's excellent pictures. They are not Western European and in the future of this event, teams that stick to western iconography and formal structures will soon find themselves at a disadvantage in the artistic category. Eventually I can see that leaking over into cultural differences in taste perception. Why so much caramel? Because most of the judges are Western and Westerners like caramel in their desserts a lot more than wasabi. While I do not predict that fugu will ever find its way into an entremet glace, I certainly hope that the Japanese (every team, in fact) will dig deep into their culinary history and create items that reflect their tastes -- and that the judges will reward that courage. South Korea did win for best sugar showpiece, and that is an excellent harbinger of things to come.

It is precisely because the techniques and processes are rigidly prescribed while the art is not that this competition works as well as it does. I would hate to see it the other way around - where the art was rigidly prescribed and it did not matter how the teams got there.

:Clay

[duckduck]

Thanks for the input Clay!

[lepatissier]

When I started this thread I didnt think it would get as far as it did! Its interesting to see the opinions and views that came out of this topic . . . lets

Just wanted to share FYI that the

Pastry Team Championships

website has posted macromedia slideshows of the competition. Individual shows of each of the teams and a compilation show of all of the teams!

Picture quality isnt that great, but they have lots to look at . . .