The Art of Eating in New York

[Pan]

Understood, FG, but that's a lot different from just pointing out that everything is unique and, in an absolute sense, unduplicable.

[docsconz]

But do those undeniable commonalities make a given meal more authentic? What I've been trying to say, and I hope I've made myself clear, is that commonality is a poor yardstick of authenticity. Measuring authenticity by shallow commonality -- commonality of form -- gives us the false authenticity of Epcot. Deeper commonality -- commonality of substance -- is to me far more compelling. In other words, to me Mario Batali's restaurants are more authentically Italian than restaurants that slavishly impersonate their Italian counterparts. Moreover, restaurants that seek to minimize imitation -- so-called chef-driven restaurants where the chef expresses a personal culinary aesthetic in his cuisine -- can be entirely authentic on their own terms. In our New World polyglot immigrant melting pot, they and not the imitators represent the gold standard for authenticity.

I believe we are finally coming to some form of agreement. The mere form of slavish photographic replication is not sufficient for authenticity. That I believe, is agreed. That is Las Vegas and Epcot. They are not authentic, no matter how much they may (or not) look like their model as with the Marilyn Monroe analogy of Mags. Authenticity comes from what is behind the facade - the substance. In my mind it is the continuum or the tradition from which a restaurant emanates. New York City is high on authenticity within its restaurants (like it or value it or not) because it takes and uses the traditions of cuisine, including the very New York tradition of taking and blending other traditions including the tradition of individual creativity. Thus, one can find all sorts of authentic restaurants in New York, even if they do not slavishly try to duplicate a snapshot of another place or time. They difference is that artifice is rarely used to achieve the illusion of an effect.

[Bux]

I think I may have mentioned Batali's Casa Momo earlier. It's a good example to use here, especially as it's not Italian in any way. Little about the food is authentically Spanish, nor does much of it remind me very much of any tapas I've had in Spain, yet there is something authentic about it in a very un-theme park way. If that same restaurant appeared in Madrid, I would not find it to be alien and would quickly accept it as a unique native restaurant much as I accept other original restaurants in Spain.

To address Mags' "context" I need only think about the way I'd approach this restaurant if it were in Madrid and how I approach it in NY. If the restaurant were in Madrid, the question of how I'd regard it if it were in NY is meaningless in terms of "authenticity," while in NY, it seems to be a natural question to ask.

I'm not sure how this relates to what others are saying. I don't think it necessarily challenges or reinforces anyone's points completely. I still feel we're discussing how we'd like "authentic" to be defined as opposed to how it's used. I think few would find Epcot authentic. False authenticity is recognized for its lack of depth. We, as a society, look for more dimension before we accept authenticity. Intellectuals can easily debate the lack of any authenticity in an attempted reproduction or conversely, that all restaurants are authentic to themselves.

When I've eaten in a Chinese restaurant in NY, I've never given that much thought to a nation or place, as much as I've given to a culture or a people. Yet after a brief trip to Hong Kong and a short few days on the mainland, Chinatown seemed more alien--less a traditional part of the New York in which I've grown up and more a representation of a culture that was transported from another place, with emphasis on the place. Although I now have some small yardstick to make a comparison of the differences between Chinatown and Guangzhou, it is the similarities that strike me. Of course NY's Chinatown is not an authentic Chinese city, but having seem a real Chinese city, I can spot certain resemblances here. To continue using Chinatown to discuss authenticity, and not to argue a point as much as raise issues about how we view authenticity here, I find that restaurants that feature new food ideas imported from Hong Kong, to be less "authentic" than the ones that serve old fashioned food, but not "chop suey." If I'm at all typical, and I'm probably not nearly as iconoclastic as I'd like to think I am, "authentic" means meeting our expectations more than anything else.

[mags]

"authentic" means meeting our expectations more than anything else.

I agree with this entirely. And the statement suggests that "authenticity," therefore, is in the eye of the beholder (since one beholder's expectations are going to differ from another's), and that "authenticity," as a quality subject to objective measurement, is pretty much a canard.

Why a canard? Why not a chicken?

[docsconz]

Now my brain hurts!

[Pan]

Why a canard? Why not a chicken?

I was going to post a link to a site that has the hilarious Chico Marx "Why a duck" bit, but I guess it may be in violation of copyright. Anyway, that was my immediate thought:

"I say, that's a viaduct."

"All right. Why a duck? Why a-why a duck? Why-a-no-chicken?"

Edited June 8, 2004 by Pan (log)

[oakapple]

Mags wrote:

...."authenticity," therefore, is in the eye of the beholder (since one beholder's expectations are going to differ from another's), and that "authenticity," as a quality subject to objective measurement, is pretty much a canard.

It sounds like you're setting up a straw man. Did anyone actually say that authenticity is objectively measurable? And are objectively measurable qualities the only ones we care about?

[mags]

Mags wrote:

...."authenticity," therefore, is in the eye of the beholder (since one beholder's expectations are going to differ from another's), and that "authenticity," as a quality subject to objective measurement, is pretty much a canard.

It sounds like you're setting up a straw man. Did anyone actually say that authenticity is objectively measurable?

Sure. I refer you to the following quote, from a post of docsconz':

"An Italian cook from Italy , cooking Mama's (or Papa's) recipes using the same ingredients from Italy that Mama would have used in a setting evocative of the original locale using native plates, glasses, decor, etc. is pretty if not totally "authentic". "

Those are all objective factors, with the possible exception of the setting's being "evocative." And for me, none of them have much to do with either authenticity or the creation of a sense of authenticity.

[Nathan]

I think it's a fair summary to say that we have two definitions of authenticity bumping heads (both with a fair amount to be said for them).

1. Authenticity in the sense of a style, an approach, a culinary zeitgeist (I refuse to say "a holistic approach" -- when I hear the "h-word" I reach for my shotgun). By this meaning, Babbo or Lupa are the closest of anything in New York to "authentic" Italian cooking.

2. Authenticity in the sense of a simulacrum, some sort of high-correspondence representation. (And no, I do not think the Epcot Center is exemplary of this definition -- I've lived in Norway and I can tell you the Norwegian portion of Epcot is nothing like Norway past or present). I haven't been to Thailand but maybe Sphriphithai (sp.?) is exemplary of this?

I think it's fair to say that most of the time when talking about food most of us actually mean a combination of the above. Most here would probably laugh at a menu reference to "authentic cippino" or "authentic chop suey" or "authentic spaghetti and meatballs" without having to think about it. So, we often mean the second definition yet we wouldn't criticize Babbo in the same breath. However, we (or most of us at any rate) attach value to the second definition -- it's something that we look for at least some of the time and probably attach a value to it independent of taste.

I'm meandering here but it gets more complex when we start discussing culinary traditions begun here by immigrants (that may now be several generations old) -- for example, I've been asked many times about where to find "authentic" Mexican -- without exception the questioner has always meant "Tex-Mex"; otherwise I'd have to send them at least to Chicago if not Oaxaca. I've had what was probably more authentic Thai in Milwaukee than anywhere in Manhattan (at least in terms of spiciness and robusticity of flavor).

And to throw a different spin: probably the ultimate ironic commentary on differing notions of authenticity is the ubiquitousness of chopsticks in Thai restaurants....something inauthentic catering to the customer's false knowledge of "authenticity."

my 3 cents.

Edited June 8, 2004 by Nathan (log)

[Bux]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half and authentic New York Thai food is eaten with chopsticks.

[Jason Perlow]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half

Actually, I like the way John Travolta eats his pizza in the opening scenes of Saturday Night Fever, if anyone here remembers.

[mags]

LOL! Now that's interesting. When I was a kid, authentic NY Chinese meals opened with egg rolls (dipped in a mixture of hot mustard and "duck sauce") and closed with bright green pistachio ice cream -- an exotic flavor not available anywhere except in Chinese restaurants.

[Jason Perlow]

LOL! Now that's interesting. When I was a kid, authentic NY Chinese meals opened with egg rolls (dipped in a mixture of hot mustard and "duck sauce") and closed with bright green pistachio ice cream -- an exotic flavor not available anywhere except in Chinese restaurants.

YES! The bright green pistachio ice cream, with peices of cherry in it!

God, why won't Ben and Jerrys or Haagen Daz make that flavor?

Actually, I beleive King Yum in Fresh Meadows still serves it. Talk about an "Authentic" New York dining experience!

[Fat Guy]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half

Actually, I like the way John Travolta eats his pizza in the opening scenes of Saturday Night Fever, if anyone here remembers.

Double decker. Word.

[Bux]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half

Actually, I like the way John Travolta eats his pizza in the opening scenes of Saturday Night Fever, if anyone here remembers.

Double decker. Word.

(Remember to eat your slice folded in half so you are not mistaken for a tourist.)

--Mitchel Davis, writing about DiFara's Pizza in the section on "Food You Eat Standing Up" in the Art of Eating 2004 number 66 p.7

Could I get a ruling on the authenticity of the food at Vong? Is this authentic Vongerichten food. Is it more or less authentic than the food at Spice Market? Does Market in Paris have the same claim to authenticity? Is it more or less authentic than Ducasse in NY?

[tomweir]

Another factor in play is the relationship other countries and communities have to New York City in particular. "The next parish" is what they call it in Ireland, and I am pretty sure there's a strong sense of a continuity between the culture of most immigrant communities in NYC and their originating countries. 9/11 showed the ownership of that city throughout the world. These things muddy very easily.

[Jason Perlow]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half

Actually, I like the way John Travolta eats his pizza in the opening scenes of Saturday Night Fever, if anyone here remembers.

Double decker. Word.

But could you even find a pizza parlor today that would serve slices with crusts firm enough so you could eat it that way nowadays? I doubt it. You try that with the stuff you can get at your average NYC pizzeria these days, you're gonna end up with a mess on your shirt.

[marlena spieler]

mmmmm, this jet-lagged marlena wants a breakfast of double decker pizza, and green pistachio ice cream with glaceed cherries in it!

and i'm soooo with you jason, why on earth is not ben and jerrys or someone else, not making pistacio-cherry ice cream? it seems a natural (or at least an unnatural......)

one of my new york treats is my semi-regular breakfast: salt bagel, scallion cream cheese, israeli salad on the side, to spoon over (i eat it open faced). i've tried eating this elsewhere and it doesn't taste the same unless its in nyc, at pick a bagel on 3rd ave.

while we are on the subject of new york eating experiences, am i the only one who feels that there isn't nearly enough good bread in nyc? where is that divine caraway seeded sour crusty rye of my youth?

marlena

[Fat Guy]

On that note, I should mention that in the next issue of the Art of Eating there will be a companion feature, also by Davis, on food shopping in New York.

[Pan]

Real New York Pizza is eaten out of hand, by folding a slice in half and authentic New York Thai food is eaten with chopsticks.

I refuse to eat non-Chinese Thai food with chopsticks, but I use chopsticks for certain dishes in Malaysian restaurants in New York, because they're all really Chinese-Malaysian, anyway.