Jonathan Gold

[jschyun]

In this week's LA Weekly, I just read this:

"I’ve always suspected that Koreans conceive of pho as a jazzier version of sullongtang, a soothing, unseasoned broth so bone-intensive that it is practically incandescent in its whiteness. It is an aesthetic, admittedly, but not necessarily one I share."

Just for the record, I don't know any Koreans, living in Korea or in L.A. that think that pho is a jazzed up version of sulleongtang. To me this sounds like he thinks Koreans are so stupid, they can't conceive of understanding the concept of pho without translating it into something Korean. Yeah, I'm not a big fan of Koreatown pho, but I also know that nobody thinks it is a "jazzier version of" sullongtang, which is a totally Korean dish.

Also, sulleongtang is not an unseasoned broth, it's a long cooked beef broth, with some shin bones thrown in to add gelatine to get that thick, unctous lusciousness. You season it at the table, with some sea salt and chopped scallions. Therefore, if it's unseasoned, that's your own damn fault. I normally like JG's articles, and i'm not really that picky or interested in details, but I just couldn't let this one go.

Here's the article.

[jhlurie]

Aren't the Japanese the ones who usually face that charge--that they have to "translate" food items to appreciate them? You know... putting corn on pizza and the like?

[mongo_jones]

well, jschyun, you know how i feel about the man's takes on "ethnic" cuisines. a good writer, has eaten a lot, but is nowhere close to being the expert he thinks he is. this kind of crap only flies because his readership (especially his addressed readership) is almost entirely hipster-anglo and craving a "guide who knows".

[Joe Blowe]

well, jschyun, you know how i feel about the man's takes on "ethnic" cuisines. a good writer, has eaten a lot, but is nowhere close to being the expert he thinks he is. this kind of crap only flies because his readership (especially his addressed readership) is almost entirely hipster-anglo and craving a "guide who knows".

ding ding ding!!! spot on.

[Louisa Chu]

Oh my God - my friend Grace needs to seriously backhand bitchslap JG.

[jschyun]

Aren't the Japanese the ones who usually face that charge--that they have to "translate" food items to appreciate them? You know... putting corn on pizza and the like?

No, no, that's not what I'm talking about. JG is not saying that Koreans are translating the dish at all, but translating the concept of the dish. bad choice of words on my part.

As I understand it, he is saying that he thinks Koreans have the idea that pho is a variant on a Korean dish, seolleongtang, which is a false statement. I know he phrased it as an opinion, but frankly, he makes it sound like he knows what he's talking about, yet this is utter bullshit. Also, I'm starting to question if he even knows how to eat Korean food. I mean, how is it that a guy who grew up in Koreatown doesn't know how to season his soup? He only needs to watch everyone else in the restaurant doing it to know he's being stupid when he sips on some unseasoned broth. What a dumbass.

mongo, this kind of crap flies because most of the readership only care about the sex ads in the back.

[mongo_jones]

jschyun, you're seriously discounting gold's status as an "expert" on "ethnic" cuisines among foodies in l.a. i still get hate mail from my old journal for the piece i wrote about him.

[mongo_jones]

I know he phrased it as an opinion, but frankly, he makes it sound like he knows what he's talking about, yet this is utter bullshit. Also, I'm starting to question if he even knows how to eat Korean food. I mean, how is it that a guy who grew up in Koreatown doesn't know how to season his soup? He only needs to watch everyone else in the restaurant doing it to know he's being stupid when he sips on some unseasoned broth. What a dumbass.

yes, whatever happened to gold, the guy who not just knows where the best of everything is to be found but also the correct way to eat it? now think about how much crap we may have swallowed over the years about cuisines and food-practices we aren't intimately familiar with (korean for you, indian for me).

[jschyun]

I would have thought that you would enjoy hate mail, but what do I know?

As for swallowing JG bullshit over the years, I think I normally ignore all the flowery bullcrap (okay, this occasion was too much for me) and go straight to whether or not the food was any good. I think you can tell if a writer really liked a place or not, unless he's a really good liar.

Side note: Joe Blowe's MIL was spot on with Mission 261, JG's dim sum darling. From now on, if there's a new dim sum place, I'm going straight to Joe Blowe, who (I hope) will, in turn, go straight to his MIL.

--If I had written that piece, I would frame my hate mail, but that's just me. I admit it. mongo_jones, you were right.

Edited May 5, 2004 by jschyun (log)

[mongo_jones]

I would have thought that you would enjoy hate mail, but what do I know?

oh i enjoy the hate mail tremendously--actually there isn't that much of it, just like to make myself sound more important than i am.

so two strikes now against our jonathan? mission 261 and now this. what's it gonna take for you to repudiate him completely...

[Stupid_American]

I always question "experts" on "all cuisines".

[Joe Blowe]

Side note:  Joe Blowe's MIL was spot on with Mission 261, JG's dim sum darling.  From now on, if there's a new dim sum place, I'm going straight to Joe Blowe, who (I hope) will, in turn, go straight to his MIL.

Well, thank you for that. Very nice of you to say, I'll be sure to pass it along! We'll be going out Saturday night for an early Mother's Day meal, hopefully something new I can post about later.

Back to the topic: I gotta say, I always treat JG's reviews with a bit of skepticism, but I view most everything in life with skepticism. (What can I say, I'm grumpy beyond my years.) He is good at digging up places that haven't hit the radar yet (what he's paid to do), but even that role is diminished with boards like this.

Like mongo said, his reviews are best suited for those who are too lazy to do their own research, or need someone to guide the way...

[mongo_jones]

well, i don't think there's anything wrong, per se, with being lazy and/or wanting a "guide" of some sort. i just don't think gold is the guide he says he is--the fact that he is accepted as one says a lot about the cultural narratives in place, but if i go on i'll once again repeat my entire long essay about him.

sometimes i wish food-writers would step aside once in a while and make room for other people who know more/differently about the things they claim to represent. wouldn't you rather read jschyun on koreatown? i'm not saying only people from a particular ethnicity should write about it (this would apply equally to someone like eddie or gary soup on the chinese food forum or edward and scott on the india forum)--but that it would be nice in this day and age, and that too in an allegedly counter-cultural publication like the weekly, to not have elected one uber-translator to explain the "other" to us. if we're all in this together it would be nice to read things that present all the "this" from the inside as well.

[Stupid_American]

Unfortunately, to "the experts", one's ethnicity and/or experience is considered "irrelevant" compared to their "knowledge".

[jschyun]

sometimes i wish food-writers would step aside once in a while and make room for other people who know more/differently about the things they claim to represent. wouldn't you rather read jschyun on koreatown?

Actually, I'd rather read skchai than me, but yeah, i think I'd rather read me than Jonathan Gold because at least I won't deliberately make up crap. Unfortunately, I have an editor who believes in the Jonathan Gold style and so he puts in all sorts of stuff in my work that is technically wrong (but very entertaining). I love the guy, and he writes better than me, but goddamn.

The thing that handicaps me is that I can only contribute my experience, what I see on television, and read in the magazines, while skchai can go on about the history behind something as simple as chiachiangmyun (see the hawaii forum for this thread). Too bad he doesn't live in L.A. Next time I'm on the Big Island I'll definitely be looking him up.

--oops instead of Big Island pls substitute Oahu.

Edited May 5, 2004 by jschyun (log)

[mongo_jones]

The thing that handicaps me is that I can only contribute my experience, what I see on television, and read in the magazines

i don't think this is such a huge handicap. i think it would make for a different kind of thing than skchai would write (i'd love to read him on korean food too) but it would still be better than gold. by the way, gold is going off of even less experience than you--except he makes it sound like he "knows". arrogant bastard.

[FoodZealot]

Unfortunately, entertainment value is a higher priority than accuracy for many reviewers and publications. FWIW, regarding JG or others, I find it's best to read through the hyperbole, consider the source, and the discount or amplify accordingly.

sidebar: skchai is on Oahu, not the Big Island.

[jschyun]

I emailed Jonathan Gold, since I kind of thought he should have some rebuttal to what we've been saying. I asked him why he thought sullongtang was unseasoned and how he thought Koreans liked their pho. Actually, I asked him more questions, but he didn't answer them.

He answered that he supposed that sullongtang was unseasoned because there was always salt and chili paste and scallions. yay, not a complete idiot. he supposed right. he didn't answer my question about what it was about the aesthetic that he didn't share. If I had to guess, I would guess that he didn't like the idea of seasoning to taste at the table, but what do I know? He didn't answer me.

also, he said that he thought that Koreans preferred their pho with

a milder level of spice (cinammon and clove, not chile). I don't remember getting chile in my Vietnamese made pho, but maybe it's just me. Does he mean the jalapenos on the side? I see those at Korean joints too. He also said that Korean pho had a bony quality and the noodles were softer. What do you guys think? I eat a lot of pho and I didn't notice that the noodles were softer, but I just think the Korean pho broth I've had has been paradoxically watery and fatty. Bony?

That said, I went to Pho 2000, after friends was telling me it was decent, and it was actually okay. They even gave me basil, though my tendon was in a 2"x5" block. there's at least 1 Pho 2000 I've seen in OC as well, and a PHO 2004, which looks similar to the Pho 2000 chain stores.

Also, he admitted he's never had pho in Seoul, though he's had it in NYC and LA, which to me suggests he's never been to Seoul. If that is the case, then I cannot understand why he feels free to say stuff like "Koffea (610 S. Berendo St., 213-427-1441) is a classic Korean coffeehouse, with beautiful chinaware, a ton of hidden rooms, and a wide selection of syrupy, freshly brewed Korean fruit teas".

Perhaps I'm smoking too much crack, but I think I vaguely remember that there were so many damn coffeehouses in Seoul several years ago, that I would be hard pressed to call Koffea "classic". What's so classic about it? I have been to Koffea, and I have to say, it's a sad imitation of the places I saw several years ago in Seoul, and I suspect it's only gotten better (in Seoul). Then again, maybe it's just the crack.

Also, if I'm going to nitpick, I might as well point out something obvious. I happened on an older article where he says

"I had never tasted what are probably the signature noodles of Korea, the thin, hand-cut, wheaten noodles known as gook soo."

Gooksoo just means noodles. If you're talking about hand-cut noodles, they're known as "kal gooksoo" or knife-cut noodles, because when you make them at home, you cut the dough with a knife to get noodles. Later he says

"Gook soo, especially as interpreted here, is a marvelous thing, flat and slightly stretchy, about the size of fettuccine but more fragile somehow, knife-cut from a thin sheet of rolled dough."

But to me this sounds like Ma Dang Gook Soo has interpreted the noodle into something unique. Am I seeing this wrong? kal gooksoo is not unique to this place. I tried to find an explanation about kal gooksoo but found nothing.

It may seem unimportant to you people who don't care about stuff like kal gooksoo, but the magisterial tone as well as the apparent lack of fact checking is kind of annoying.

[hollywood]

It's easier to adopt a confident authoritative tone when you don't check your facts, much less know enough to realize there's something to check.

[hollywood]

On the other hand, it's hard not to like the guy when he turns out a column like this one. http://www.laweekly.com/ink/printme.php?eid=53525

[jschyun]

Yeah, I'm conflicted too.

[skchai]

Thanks for the excessively-kind comments Joan. Honestly, I'd hate to see what would happen if an omniscient fact-checker went through my posts. At least I have no idea how to take magisterial tone. . .

Did you send Gold a link to this thread? Hopefully if he saw it (instead of being offended) he would take this as hint to tone down some of the smarty-pants about intl food. And maybe issue a correction or two when people point out where he's gone wrong (as you did regarding gooksoo). The issue isn't whether he knows a lot about food (obviously he knows a lot), but whether he's getting a little too full of himself. . .

[jschyun]

Quite true, I think what finally got to me was not so much the lack of fact-checking as the lack of fact checking combined a tone of omniscience. Actually, maybe it's just the tone of omniscience. I remember being so amazed that he knew so much about Indian culture, and then when I finally read mongo's rant, it was kind of shocking. I read Counter Intelligence and really liked it. Now I want to read it again.

I did ask around to see if maybe Mr. Gold was correct in supposing that Korean people think that pho is in any way related to sullongtang. I got a bunch of looks like I was crazy.

I'm the first to admit, I have a lot to learn. Not being one to really delve into the history behind the food I eat, I am always impressed and amazed by people who do. But skchai, you have to admit, this guy is not reading up on anything. Why can't he just say, he liked this and that restaurant and be done with it?

Edited May 15, 2004 by jschyun (log)

[merle]

Gold's commentary is certainly pithy, and reads like one expects a good quick restaurant review to read... but writing ability and culinary tastes are a very different thing. I do enjoy many of his columns, but there are times...

I like mongo_jones' comment: he's catering to "hipster-anglos". I consider myself

a gwai-lo gaijin gringo, but I'm often surprised at what many of my friends refuse to even try when we go out. My current fave soup is Yuk Gae Jang (when asked for *cough* extra spicy). But if I were writing a food column, that probably wouldn't be my first recommendation, because, as noted, many readers wouldn't go there: there's no comparable American dish.

Admittedly, it's very likely that there was cross-cultural contamination of foodstuffs (not that these are bad things!). Vietnam and Korea aren't all that far apart. But unless he's willing to go into the cultural anthropology behind it, I'm not going to buy it. ("oooh... a lot of cuisines use "fish"... and Iceland has lots of fishing... must have come from there!")

I had chicken soup growing up. Did I assume, the first time I had pho, that it was a derivative? No. (it was much better, in my opinion, but.. ;-)) Just because two things are similar does not a causal relationship form.

[merle]

Why can't he just say, he liked this and that restaurant and be done with it?

Because then anyone can be considered a professional food critic! ;-)