NYC Culinary Cultural Fluency

[hathor]

I think there are 2 lines of discussion developing here (not including the Chinese food discussion):

One is that in NYC, restaurant-ing IS a sport. Which of us hasn't spent far too long on the phone or around the water cooler discussing the merits of which restaurant to choose tonight. That's why the analogy to sports was so accurate. We are the melting pot of the world, and within a few blocks, you can travel to every major continent and sub-continent. We are not forced to eat in chains with their homogenizing effects; hence the passionate debates.

The other prong of this discussion seems to be media coverage. As a NY-er, its very difficult to find restaurant reviews that are not bland, politically correct or just blatant sales pitches. The NYT is only one voice. What if you want to hear something else? Where do you go? I used to be a big fan of FG's old website. It was thoughtful, came from the heart. He told it the way he felt it...not the way he thought his readership would want to hear it...with the same old buzz words. eGullet is a truly marvelous forum for everyone who is interested to discuss their opinions. I can run thru a thread, and then make my own call.

I am proud to be a 'cuisinista'!

[babka]

One is that in NYC, restaurant-ing IS a sport. Which of us hasn't spent far too long on the phone or around the water cooler discussing the merits of which restaurant to choose tonight. That's why the analogy to sports was so accurate. We are the melting pot of the world, and within a few blocks, you can travel to every major continent and sub-continent. We are not forced to eat in chains with their homogenizing effects; hence the passionate debates.

good summary point. I'm dating a new yorker, and the first time he asked about my dinner plans a month ahead of time, I thought he was completely nuts.

now I just think it's wierd.

[Hest88]

Bringing this back to the original question:

This is a phenomena that exists on all "enthusiast" boards. When a group of people care about something enough to spend gobs of time on a related website, they are interested in all facets of the topic. It makes sense that many of them on eGullet are from NYC because NY is a sophisticated, metropolitan area with many restaurant choices so if you're the least bit interested in food you have many venues in which to cultivate that interest. Plus, if you're NOT interested, you may easily find yourself developing that interest.

I live in the Bay Area, and it's really hard for me to meet someone who doesn't have an opinion on food. Not only can I easily pick over service and cuisine issues with new acquaintances, but get embroiled into discussions on sustainabilty, nutrition, food marketing, etc. during a simple cocktail conversation.

[slkinsey]

Good points, Hest88. I would also bet that there is much more discussion on these boards about things like "sustainabilty, nutrition, food marketing, etc." from the members in your neck of the woods, reflecting the higher degree of interest and general fluency in these topics over there.

[babka]

haven't figured out how to quote multiple posts, so hang on here:

bux:

The depression? I guess I'm not the oldest one here....Restaurants, by and large, are probably a city product supported by urban density. Life in the great midwest may not have been so different from Long Island or Upstate NY..

Mags:

  I think New Yorkers have a history of incorporating restaurants -- and people's choice of restaurants, and people's choice of what to order in restaurants -- into a broader social context. Village coffeehouses, Le Pavillon, La Cote Basque, Elaine's, Ratner's, kosher dairy restaurants, Katz's and "send a salami to your boy in the army," pizza joints, the importance of not ordering pastrami on white, whether Lindy's sells more cheesecake or apple strudel...they've all been powerful carriers of meaning and symbolism in the city for as long as I can remember, and a lot longer than that.

I sorta meant the depression that my grandfather, and the grandparents of my childhood friends, all grew up in, which had some damn-long-lasting impacts on our family's restaurant habits.

But in looking at the references to the "amateur" dining that takes place on holidays and the slow challenge of independents to chains outside of NYC, and comparing it to the little that I know of European and Latin American dining, and the _nothing_ that I know of Asian or African dining, I end up wondering if the Depression 'broke' a cultural practice of eating out outside of the big cities, or if it simply withered naturally in more rural areas.

In Europe, Latin America, and NYC [being my only points of reference here] nearly all restaurants seem to be an outpost of the home, subject to the same furious debates and discussions. In the midwest and, as far as I know, the rural south, (I'm from Iowa, though half my family's from Chicago originally), 'expensive' restaurants are an occasional occasion, justifiable only through frugal selections and, well, special occasions. Maybe it was the same in NYC during rough times and ya'all just bounced back faster, thanks to density/social compression identification/all the other good factors identified in this tread.

[mags]

If anything, the self-imposed trend at the Times has been one of dumbing down in order to appeal to the mass market: Nigella Lawson? Hesser's magazine pieces on dating? No question, there's some great stuff in the Times food section, and it operates on a level far above that of the old-school home economist, but I'm not seeing the intellectual rigor, the culinary cultural fluency -- especially not in restaurant coverage.

FG, I think the trend toward shorter, dumbed-down pieces is endemic to virtually the entire publishing industry -- or at least to that segment of it that actively seeks to turn a profit. When I started out as a reporter, about 12 years ago, the typical feature story was 2000-3000 words. Today, outside of the New Yorker, the typical feature runs about half that length, and sometimes less. Magazines and newspapers focus-group everything to death, and the overwhelming assumption coming out of all those focus groups is that readers want short, easy-to-grasp articles that they can read while waiting for the microwave to go ping.

I have my suspicions about why this perception has arisen. They center around the notion that anyone who has so little to do during the day that free lunch and a temporary feeling of importance feel like good compensation for spending 4 hours in a focus group...is not someone I want to be writing for. But shorter, faster, and, God help us, more "service-oriented" does seem to be the order of the day, pretty much across the board.

[picaman]

Rather, I think there are some differences in how those meals are distributed: first, New Yorkers are taking a much higher percentage of their restaurant meals in non-chain, individually distinctive restaurants

Thanks for an excellent refinement of my original point; the higher percentage of meals eaten in non-chain restaurants may contribute to the level of interest in food in general.

Jamie

[Fat Guy]

FG, I think the trend toward shorter, dumbed-down pieces is endemic to virtually the entire publishing industry -- or at least to that segment of it that actively seeks to turn a profit.

The neat trick is that the Times has dumbed down without shortening!

[Bux]

I end up wondering if the Depression 'broke' a cultural practice of eating out outside of the big cities, or if it simply withered naturally in more rural areas.

Was there a practice of eating out in rural areas in the nineteenth and first decades of the twentieth century? Did farmers ever go out to dinner as often as city dwellers? I wonder.

In Europe, Latin America, and NYC [being my only points of reference here] nearly all restaurants seem to be an outpost of the home, subject to the same furious debates and discussions. In the midwest and, as far as I know, the rural south, (I'm from Iowa, though half my family's from Chicago originally), 'expensive' restaurants are an occasional occasion, justifiable only through frugal selections and, well, special occasions. Maybe it was the same in NYC during rough times and ya'all just bounced back faster, thanks to density/social compression identification/all the other good factors identified in this tread.

Once again I wonder if that's the case. I'm still more likely to place an emphasis on tying restaurants to density of population. Other factors than might favor city folk making greater use of restaurants is that cities along with their slums, also attract an dense core of weathy residents, but even more important a density of businesses and tourism, both of which feed the restaurant industry in a way that rural areas do not. Moreover, I'm willing to bet that rural rich are more likely to have larger kitchens and domestic help including a full time cook than city dwellers. There's also a social atmosphere of a city with its density of housing and offices that lends itself to people having many more aquaintances than they might in the country. Kin and close friend might best be entertained at home, but collegues and acquaintences are relationships that suggest public dining and drinking.

The depression is before my time, but I don't see evidence that it broke the back of restaurants in rural areas anymore than it did in urban areas. I don't think they were there.

[Bux]

... to be honest, I think that the effect you have perceived on these boards is more due to the fact that users like Fat Guy, Bux, etc. happen to live in NYC.  Now, it may be the case (and indeed I am making the case) that NYC generally has more of this type of person than other American cities.  But if it just so happened that these members lived in, say Portland -- and I am sure that such people are to be found there -- you might be saying the same thing about discussion in the PNW forum.

I think I disagree. I don't just happen to be living here. I'm as much a product of this city as I am a contributor to its culture, and those who unlike me, weren't born here, came here by need or design. I'm far more convinced by your earlier argument that a certain culturally intellectual person is drawn here and further influenced by the existing culture. That said, it may not be a commonly found culture, but it's not necessarily unique, except perhaps in scale.

[slkinsey]

Well... my point was more that, had these forums been populated early on with intellectual foodies from Portland instead of New York -- and certainly they exist there, albeit in smaller numbers -- then people might form a similar impression about the PNW forum. I don't think it's a coincidence that there happen to be many people of a certain type in NYC, but I also would not suggest that people of that type do not exist in other cities. All this is to say that there is a Bux-equivalent in Portland, just not as many of them.

The real point of all this, of course, is that you can be replaced!

[Fat Guy]

had these forums been populated early on with intellectual foodies from Portland instead of New York

What are the odds?

[Bux]

Well... my point was more that, had these forums been populated early on with intellectual foodies from Portland instead of New York -- and certainly they exist there, albeit in smaller numbers -- then people might form a similar impression about the PNW forum.  I don't think it's a coincidence that there happen to be many people of a certain type in NYC, but I also would not suggest that people of that type do not exist in other cities.  All this is to say that there is a Bux-equivalent in Portland, just not as many of them.

The real point of all this, of course, is that you can be replaced!

Had these forums been populated early on by Hannibal Lecter and Jeffrey Dahmer then people might think we're all cannibals. I think part of the point raised here is that the Bux-equivalent thrives in New York because it can feed on not only the range of food here, but the density of opinion regarding food. Let me tell you I've spoken about food to some pretty dense people. I'd like to hear more about Bux-equivalency, is there a Bux-equivalency test you can use to determine some quality? I'm thing of something like a litmus test for replacements.

[slkinsey]

Actually, although you may not realize it, sometimes when you're gone we secretly replace the normal Bux served on eGullet with Folger's Instant Crystals. So far, no one can tell the difference.