Zagat ---Philly Guide

[viejo majadero]

Zagat just opened their Philly and area survey. Go to their web site and register for the survey and you will get a free guide for participating.

Viejo

[menton1]

Any talk about the Zagat Guides should also include the negatives. As has been discussed at length on the NJ Forum, the Zagat guides have many problems, including prominent restaurants conspicuous by their non-inclusion in the guides, the mysterious methods used to arrived at their scoring numbers, and a general secrecy and unwillingness to openly discuss their guides. The Zagats are celebrities, and also are more than willing to accept VIP status at restaurants they are invited to. A full discussion here: Zagat NJ Egullet Discussion

Caveat Emptor!!

[michaelklein]

As the Zagat Philadelphia editor since 1993, I can answer questions unique to this survey.

To address the first concerns: I tried my best to ensure that all "prominent" Philadelphia-area restaurants were included on the new questionnaire, which has about 850 restaurants. I added about 200 restaurants that were not on the previous survey and knocked out about 50 closings. (No one's perfect and your definition of "prominent" may vary. Still, any restaurant can be added later if it receives enough write-in votes.)

I don't see any "mysterious methods" at work in determining each restaurant's scores. It's purely mathematical. Surveyors rate the food, service and decor on a scale of zero to three. The scores you read in the guide are the average, times 10, to correct rounding. For example, if a restaurant receives a 23 for food, that represents an average food score of 2.3. Sometimes, hairs are split; I remember one year in one category when Le Bec-Fin got something like a 28.47 and the Fountain got a 28.52. LBF came away with the 28 and the Fountain won a 29.

Any questions? Fire away.

[rlibkind]

Thanks for the explanation, Michael.

As for the LBF/Fountain arithmetic example you gave, it would be nice if there was a way to indicate such an aberration to readers. Some people would read the guide and decide that by virtue of a single point, one restaurant is better than another.

[michaelklein]

As Mason said to Dixon, you gotta draw the line somewhere.

Actually, in the foreword that year, I did explain the closeness of their scores.

[Lreda]

Mr Klein,

I find it refreshing that you can give us all some insight into how you edit the Phila. Zagat's. I am a restaurant owner in Northern NJ and am approaching my 10 year anniversary and year after year am not listed in NJ's edition. I have a upscale place that has been well-reviewed in print and here of course on egullet ( At least the majority has. ) How can I go about gaining inclusion? Ms Clurfield, who edits NJ's edition has refused to give us answers both on this board and through personal email.

Thank you,

Louis Reda

An American Grill

Randolph NJ

[KatieLoeb]

Mr Klein,

I find it refreshing that you can give us all some insight into how you edit the Phila. Zagat's. I am a restaurant owner in Northern NJ and am approaching my 10 year anniversary and year after year am not listed in NJ's edition. I have a upscale place that has been well-reviewed in print and here of course on egullet ( At least the majority has. ) How can I go about gaining inclusion? Ms Clurfield, who edits NJ's edition has refused to give us answers both on this board and through personal email.

Thank you,

Louis Reda

An American Grill

Randolph NJ

Lou:

How about moving that marvelous restaurant of yours to Philadelphia? Seems the local Zagat editor is more fair-minded than his NJ counterpart, and there's no shortage of hungry and appreciative diners here.

[Greg Salisbury]

Hey, Michael,

Thanks for opening the floor up to questions. I was very, very happy to be included in the last edition, but one question: Rx was given an E, when we are a straight M based on menu prices. Is there any way to change that for the upcoming edition?

Thanks,

[Lreda]

How about moving that marvelous restaurant of yours to Philadelphia? Seems the local Zagat editor is more fair-minded than his NJ counterpart, and there's no shortage of hungry and appreciative diners here.

Katie, being I'm a Bronx boy lost in the suburbs of Jersey perhaps a move to The City of Brotherly Love wouldn't be a bad idea.

[michaelklein]

A couple of answers:

Since Rx was new and therefore unrated in the last book, it got a letter ranking for its price range. In its ratings for the next book, due in July, it will receive the more familiar dollar amount.

Please don't ask me about other editors and their rationale for including/excluding. There was only one Phila restaurant that actually asked to be dropped from the book, and we honored the request.

Another thing you all should know. Editors have less input into the reviews themselves than most people believe. It works like this: The editors receive the restaurants' scores, as well as a list of all the comments. For a typical, moderately popular restaurant, I may receive several hundred comments. I must gauge their tone. If they are uniformly positive or negative, the review will reflect that. If the comments are mixed, which is frequent, the review will reflect the dissent. The editors back in New York bend over backwards to determine that the final reviews you read is a fair representation of what surveyors wrote.

[glenn]

Lou, have you tried writing directly to Tim Z?

[Lreda]

I've sent emails and the only response I get is to send my press kit which I've done twice without any answers.

[menton1]

Michael,

I think one of the major areas of editor's discretion is on the ballot itself. The editor must decide what names to put on the ballot. If a restaurant is not on the ballot, the chances of a "write-in" vote are probably a fraction of someone voting for a name on the ballot. And for an established restaurant to be absent from the ballot year after year does raise some eyebrows.

[Holly Moore]

Mike -

My only real dispute with the guide - other than reviewing should be left to we professionals - is a fear that many of the top rankings are based on hear-say rather than actual experience. Think it's human nature, for some at least, to give high ratings to the four Bell places whether or not one has actually dined there. Has Zagart ever tried to quantify this?

That said, Zagart and I usually agree, so they must be accurate.

[marinade]

My only real dispute with the guide - other than reviewing should be left to we professionals  - is a fear that many of the top rankings are based on hear-say rather than actual experience. Think it's human nature, for some at least, to give high ratings to the four Bell places whether or not one has actually dined there. Has Zagart ever tried to quantify this?

Hol,

That being said the same holds true for this site as well as the other one.

Edited February 23, 2004 by marinade (log)

[michaelklein]

The editor must decide what names to put on the ballot. If a restaurant is not on the ballot, the chances of a "write-in" vote are probably a fraction of someone voting for a name on the ballot. And for an established restaurant to be absent from the ballot year after year does raise some eyebrows.

I wish I could address specifics, but I take write-ins seriously. If a restaurant gets a sizable number of write-ins, I use it -- unless it's a chain.

[Holly Moore]

Marinade -

The professionals part was said mostly in jest. Though with a profesional reviewer one can consider a review based on that person's track record.

The rest of the statement - eGulleteers have proven themselves extraordinarily effective at seeing through shills and evil doers. I don't think there need be a concern about the veracity of reviews hereabouts.

Edited February 23, 2004 by Holly Moore (log)

[michaelklein]

My only real dispute with the guide - other than reviewing should be left to we professionals    - is a fear that many of the top rankings are based on hear-say rather than actual experience.  Think it's human nature, for some at least, to give high ratings to the four Bell places whether or not one has actually dined there.  Has Zagart ever tried to quantify this?

That said, Zagart and I usually agree, so they must be accurate.

Yo Holly,

Part of the Zagat charm is the fact that that professionals are not the reviewers. I will grant you that the high-Bell restaurants tend to get a lot of perhaps undeservedly good buzz, but that hyperbole slops over into message boards as well.

Chew on this: "Professional" restaurant critics might base their review on perhaps 4 to 10 "covers." When you think about all the variables that may affect a restaurant meal -- from a busboy with a hangover to a waiter in a full snit to the "chef's night off" -- is THAT totally a fair way to judge an entire restaurant operation? Of course it's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

I don't know if Zagat has a way to quantify whether people dined there or not.

[marinade]

Usually when we travel to another city I've used Zagats, eG, CH, and friends (who actually ate there) as a cross references as to how a town shakes out. Sometimes I use archive posts as well as starting threads of my own. I take all my sources with a grain of salt as well they should take mine. They're just opinions. Sometimes they're dead on... and other times, well....

[Holly Moore]

Yo Holly,

Part of the Zagat charm is the fact that that professionals are not the reviewers. I will grant you that the high-Bell restaurants tend to get a lot of perhaps undeservedly good buzz,...

Chew on this: "Professional" restaurant critics might base their review on perhaps 4 to 10 "covers." When you think about all the variables that may affect a restaurant meal -- from a busboy with a hangover to a waiter in a full snit to the "chef's night off" -- is THAT totally a fair way to judge an entire restaurant operation? Of course it's not perfect, but it's the best we have.

I don't know if Zagat has a way to quantify whether people dined there or not.

Totally agree re the experience of professional reviewers relating to a meal. I once calculated, on eGullet as I recall, that a typical restaurant may serve 70,000 to 100,000 or more meals in the course of a year, yet a reviewer's review is based on the 8 or 10 covers that you mention. Sometimes, with cheaper editors and publications, only one or two covers. A very thin sample, indeed.

but that hyperbole slops over into message boards as well.

Fat Guy don't allow no hyperbole slopping 'round here.