Per Se

[russ parsons]

And sure, sometimes there's both. Stanley Kubrick comes to mind. But the reason my initial review compared fine dining to death is that I didn't get the smell Paul Bertiolli describes in his introduction. There was nothing mystical about Per Se, just like there was nothing mystical about Charlie Trotter's. Perfection, yes. Cold, calculated perfection.

well said adrober. i haven't eaten at per se, so i wouldn't dream of arguing with your description. but i did have a couple of thoughts:

1) aren't we lucky to live in a world where we don't have to choose between the two styles, or more accurately, where we can? i've had plenty of meals like bertolli describes and i would never want to give them up. but i can't imagine having to give up those amazing flights of fancy that chefs like keller provide, either (incidentally, it's curious that you quote bertolli on this since, personally, he is one of the most cerebral, least earthy chefs i know ... and that's not at all intended to be a criticism).

2) again, i haven't eaten at per se, but i have eaten pretty often at the french laundry and the thing that inspires me about that restaurant is exactly that keller is able to wed the intellectual and the passionate. almost every time i eat there i have a dish that makes me throw back my head with laughter at the surprising combination of flavors and the sheer unexpected deliciousness of it.

3) i seem to recall that you are just beginning your eating adventures. do you think your opinions might change in a couple of years? one of the odd things about eating in this country is that everyone expects to start out an expert. anything that is great takes some learning about (and that's not just for fine dining ... witness the passionate and learned arguments over barbecue). do you think that further down the road and with a little more experience, some of the subtleties that seem cold now might intrigue you more? there is a common pattern in wine appreciation: people start out with cabernets and zinfandels, the bigger and riper the better. then they move on to pinot noir. subtlety takes time and experience to grasp, but that doesn't mean it's bad.

[bilrus]

  There was nothing mystical about Per Se, just like there was nothing mystical about Charlie Trotter's.  Perfection, yes.  Cold, calculated perfection. 

2) again, i haven't eaten at per se, but i have eaten pretty often at the french laundry and the thing that inspires me about that restaurant is exactly that keller is able to wed the intellectual and the passionate. almost every time i eat there i have a dish that makes me throw back my head with laughter at the surprising combination of flavors and the sheer unexpected deliciousness of it.

Since very few people here on eGullet (or anywhere for that matter) have eaten at both French Laundry and Per Se so far it will be interesting to see if the same sense of the combination of attempted perfection and passion and warmth that so many sense at French Laundry in its bucolic Yountville setting will translate to a restaurant in a high rise in the middle of the businest city in the country.

ADrober - was it the combiantion of the setting and the food or jsut the food itself that left you cold?

[docsconz]

I for one enjoy both the "earthy" cuisine a la Slow Food and the creative genius of chefs like Keller or Adria. The one thing that must be common with both is great taste. If that is there, then the "cerebralness" and whimsy of the creative chef add another element of enjoyment and to my mind is worth the extra money. Without great taste, creativity by itself is not sufficient for a great meal.

[rich]

Without great taste, creativity by itself is not sufficient for a great meal.

Agreed, without great taste nothing else matters.

[Fat Guy]

Since very few people here on eGullet (or anywhere for that matter) have eaten at both French Laundry and Per Se so far it will be interesting to see if the same sense of the combination of attempted perfection and passion and warmth that so many sense at French Laundry in its bucolic Yountville setting will translate to a restaurant in a high rise in the middle of the businest city in the country.

There's a subset of the audience that seems hell-bent on whining about "the mall" and "the food court," but my experience of Per Se was that it was the urban alter ego to the French Laundry. Both settings are stunning expressions of their genres.

[ballast_regime]

I have remained in an eGullet exile for long enough. It's about high-time I crawled out of the woodwork, even if for two minutes, and offered a rebuttal or two to adrober.

First off, why does "passion" exist at the opposite of some spectrum (whose shape or basic contours I cannot even begin to imagine) than "perfection?" Why are the two not coterminous? It's silly to believe that high-minded technique cannot coexist with passion, much less that they are polar opposites. Charlie Trotter and Thomas Keller are two perfect examples of such a nexus. Every chef I've known who has worked for either has commented about the level of fanaticism contained within both, and I mean fanaticism of every kind: love, anger, attention to detail, etc. In fact, a former Trotter sous chef I was talking to said the reason his restaurant (which has received a lot of national attention) isn't better is because he isn't as passionate as Trotter.

Secondly, adrober, you compare a certain high-end strain of cooking to science, as if the two are completely different. Thing is, almost every dish in any culinary repertoire exists as a result of an extended trial-and-error process that spans generations. Not too dissimilar from the scientific method when you get down to it. Sure, many chefs are trying to speed the process or rework classics or whatever, but why not?

Lastly, I have two asides: My experience of Trotter's is completely different than yours. What strikes me most about Trotter's cuisine is how sloppy and randomized it is, in every aspect, especially when compared with other North American restaurants that operate at his level. E.g., the way he builds and combines flavor, his horizontal style of plating, and so on. (This isn't a knock on his restaurant, as it's one my three or four favorites in the country.) Additionally, why is it that you were not moved by the high-end cuisine you've encountered, when I've been giddied to the point of tears? Sure, my mom or dad would probably stir such food around on the Limoges, and then ask the head waiter for some barbeque. But there are many people, even many eGulls, who would give two-thirds of their internal organs to eat at Per Se. Understand, I'm not trying to invalidate your experiences; rather, I just want to point out that although something may be "cerebrally cool" for one person, it may be an experiential mindfuck for another.

Much peace,

Ian Lowe

ballast/regime

Edited May 11, 2004 by ballast_regime (log)

[Pan]

But there are many people, even many eGulls, who would give two-thirds of their internal organs to eat at Per Se.

I get your point, but what a painful image.

[marcus]

My experience of Trotter's is completely different than yours. What strikes me most about Trotter's cuisine is how sloppy and randomized it is, in every aspect, especially when compared with other North American restaurants that operate at his level. E.g., the way he builds and combines flavor, his horizontal style of plating, and so on. (This isn't a knock on his restaurant, as it's one my three or four favorites in the country.)

Your use of language must be very different than my own. How can this not be taken as a very serious criticism? I do agree with your comment, which is one of the reasons that I don't like Trotter's at all.

[Fat Guy]

Some interesting discussion of Per Se today in the article Who Really Cooks Your Food?, by Julia Moskin. After documenting Keller's strategy for the phased Per Se opening and French Laundry reopening, the article goes on to say:

Instead, shortly after its Feb. 16 opening, Per Se was closed by a fire in the kitchen. Mr. Ziebold gave notice. From New York, Mr. Keller is managing the (delayed) reopening of the French Laundry; he has not yet named a chef de cuisine there. And Per Se quietly reopened on May 1, with Mr. Benno in charge at the stove on six days' experience, facing a now-ravenous New York audience.

"Obviously, I am incredibly anxious," Mr. Keller said. "I've spent years trying to make sure this wouldn't happen. One faulty electric cable, and that was that."

Aside from the lack of supportiveness in the above quote -- which should have said "I have confidence in my people. Period." -- it's interesting that the Ziebold departure has received so little ink. Although, when the name of his replacement becomes public knowledge, it will make a big splash -- I promise.

Not that the world needed another article about how -- surprise! -- the chef isn't always in the kitchen, but this one is at least worth reading for the ancillary information.

[Stone]

But there are many people, even many eGulls, who would give two-thirds of their internal organs to eat at Per Se.

I've got room in my reservation. Send photos of the offered organs. (Cash accepted in lieu of flesh.)

[Fat Guy]

(A new brain would be best.)

[Stone]

(A new brain would be best.)

Cute.

[bloviatrix]

Does anyone have experience making reservations through American Express? Would they be able to secure me a table more than 60 days in advance?

[docsconz]

When the original date for reservations opened back in January I was able to get a reservation for myself faster than American Express was, even though I was considered by them to be a "priority" due to an earlier screw-up. Nevertheless it wouldn't hurt to try both ang go with whoever gets through first.

[russ parsons]

quoted someone saying:

Instead, shortly after its Feb. 16 opening, Per Se was closed by a fire in the kitchen. Mr. Ziebold gave notice. From New York, Mr. Keller is managing the (delayed) reopening of the French Laundry; he has not yet named a chef de cuisine there. And Per Se quietly reopened on May 1, with Mr. Benno in charge at the stove on six days' experience, facing a now-ravenous New York audience.

i haven't talked to thomas about this in a while, but i do know that eric actually gave notice last spring and had remained on as a personal favor to thomas and the staff to help get the french laundry back up and running. i don't know how long he is/was planning on staying around, but i do know that he has a deal already done to open his own place in washington dc. he certainly isn't bailing, rather, he went out of his way to take one for the team.

[Fat Guy]

There are a few misleading implications in that passage, standing alone: 1) It implies that Ziebold gave notice in the middle of the reconstruction after the fire, and 2) It implies that Benno is alone at Per Se, whereas I'm under the impression that Keller is there -- not that it matters, because Benno is perfectly capable of running that kitchen according to Keller's standards, and 3) It implies that Benno's sum total of experience with Keller is 6 days when in fact he was at French Laundry for something like a year before the Per Se opening.

[cbarre02]

could the replacement for Ziebold be a former French Laundry Employee, who is rumored to be leaving his current chefs postition?

[jeffj]

could the replacement for Ziebold be a former French Laundry Employee, who is rumored to be leaving his current chefs postition?

I'd highly doubt that. I think chefg has made it clear that he'd love to eventually take his style of cuisine to a more prominent scene (ie New York) but I doubt he'd return to FL and try to mold back into the Keller style. Just my own thoughts.

-j

[bilrus]

but i do know that he has a deal already done to open his own place in washington dc.

That has been pretty well known (at least here on eGullet and in the Sietsema chats) for a while here in DC.

[cbarre02]

jeffj... you are totally right, i guess it was just wisheful thinking.

[Fat Guy]

It's noted in the article that he's going to be the chef at the Mandarin Oriental in DC -- not sure if you can count that as "his" place, unless it's a concession, but whatever -- but in two places it implies that he resigned last month, which is certainly not the case.

In terms of his replacement, it seems one has been designated but not yet signed-on-the-dotted-line and announced. As soon as we get the official word, we'll post something.

[Mark Sommelier]

It's noted in the article that he's going to be the chef at the Mandarin Oriental in DC -- not sure if you can count that as "his" place, unless it's a concession, but whatever -- but in two places it implies that he resigned last month, which is certainly not the case.

In terms of his replacement, it seems one has been designated but not yet signed-on-the-dotted-line and announced. As soon as we get the official word, we'll post something.

Hidemasa Yamamoto is the executive chef of the new Mandarin Oriental in DC. Eric will be the chef of the signature fine dining restaurant when it opens later this year.

[dr_memory]

At the risk of asking a relatively straightforward question in the midst of all of the more metaphysical hand-wringing on this thread... does anyone here remember offhand whether Per Se's confirmation policy is 2 or 3 days prior to the reservation? Like an idiot, I have lost the piece of paper on which I jotted it down, and their website is singularly unhelpful on the topic.

[robert40]

At the risk of asking a relatively straightforward question in the midst of all of the more metaphysical hand-wringing on this thread... does anyone here remember offhand whether Per Se's confirmation policy is 2 or 3 days prior to the reservation?  Like an idiot, I have lost the piece of paper on which I jotted it down, and their website is singularly unhelpful on the topic.

It is two day's.

[LESider]

2) again, i haven't eaten at per se, but i have eaten pretty often at the french laundry and the thing that inspires me about that restaurant is exactly that keller is able to wed the intellectual and the passionate. almost every time i eat there i have a dish that makes me throw back my head with laughter at the surprising combination of flavors and the sheer unexpected deliciousness of it.

Russ's comment is a great description of how surprsed I was by the Truffled Popcorn Per Se was giving away as a taster on Chef's Night Out last week. It was pretty clever