Canadian Whisky

[mkayahara]

I do like the 40 Creek Barrel Select, especially for mixing.

It's a great, easy going whisky for cocktails where you don't want the spirit to blow the other ingredients out of the water.  It's also a pretty good sipper, and compares well to many whisk(e)ys in its price range.

I really haven't tasted a wide enough variety of other Canadian Whiskys to know how it compares to Crown Royal, Canadian Club, or whatever.

I'd love to give that Alberta Premium a try some time.  100% Rye makes it sound awfully appealing.

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Is there a particular cocktail where you find the 40 Creek really shines? I've quite enjoyed drinking it on its own, but I find that it doesn't have quite enough of a presence in the mixed drinks I've made.

[bostonapothecary]

i'm trying to ban canadian whiskey from the bar.... the bar manager of course thinks i'm crazy....

i want to get overholt rye bar mats and napkins/straw holders.... i'm a whiskey nationalist.... i don't care if the flavor is different. the cost to benefits to me are particular flavor at the cost of supporting local culture semi artisinal industry etc.... but i can't run my mouth that much because i'd still rather mix and serve rum....

anyhow i think bars need to promote more "when in rome" this is what we drink here and you should too... isn't that how the sazerac and many infamous house drinks got started? canadian whiskey, here anyhow, really isn't in that picture....

[thirtyoneknots]

i'm trying to ban canadian whiskey from the bar.... the bar manager of course thinks i'm crazy....

i want to get overholt rye bar mats and napkins/straw holders.... i'm a whiskey nationalist.... i don't care if the flavor is different.  the cost to benefits to me are particular flavor at the cost of supporting local culture semi artisinal industry etc.... but i can't run my mouth that much because i'd still rather mix and serve rum....

anyhow i think bars need to promote more "when in rome" this is what we drink here and you should too... isn't that how the sazerac and many infamous house drinks got started? canadian whiskey, here anyhow, really isn't in that picture....

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I'm with you 100% there, and so is my manager. For some odd reason though, 'around here' means Crown and Jack. I'm really not sure how one of the lightest flavored whiskies out there became such a 'Texas thing'. We tried to do away with Crown and there was nearly a riot. Jack he refuses to carry. We've easily got the best American and Scotch Whisk(e)y collections in town, all the way up to AH Hirsch 16 yr and The Glenrothes '79. And yet people clamor for Crown Royal. I'll never understand.

[eje]

Well, I'm as much of an American whiskey bigot as anyone else here.

But, there are good spirits, bad spirits, and overpriced spirits in every category, including American Whiskies.

Not to mention innovators among the producers.

You gotta give people like John Hall credit for at least trying to reinvigorate their craft and tradition. It also doesn't hurt that it is good whisky.

[bostonapothecary]

Well, I'm as much of an American whiskey bigot as anyone else here.

But, there are good spirits, bad spirits, and overpriced spirits in every category, including American Whiskies.

Not to mention innovators among the producers.

You gotta give people like John Hall credit for at least trying to reinvigorate their craft and tradition.  It also doesn't hurt that it is good whisky.

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when you talk about good and bad and overpriced spirits its kinda crazy how people can evalaute wines more or less for value and what deserves price but it sorta falls apart in spirits....

the snob affect takes over where expensive means good and boutique in wine is huge but means far far less in spirits. the market is driven by experimental consumers who shoot in the dark not understanding what they buy and then at times demanding the comfort of a label not a liquid when they are in an unfamiliar place like a random bar.

the economics of it are weird. the whole thing is rather disgusting.

what makes a canadian whiskey good and defines the varietal? what is the greatest thing it can aspire to? is there any terrior? wasn't it supposed to aspire to american rye?

it never makes or breaks my drinks anyhow.

i like boycotting things....

cointreau

grand marnier

canadian whiskey

chambord

vodka

chilean pisco....

kahlua

bailey's

cherry flavored stuff was on the list but i'm slowly starting to admire it....

every extra bottle takes up a slot for beautiful bourbon, local rye, rum or something made by me....

i was out tonight and had one good drink at eastern standard and a couple bad ones elsewhere.... oh well, luckily i was in good company the whole time.

[eje]

[...]

what makes a canadian whiskey good and defines the varietal? what is the greatest thing it can aspire to? is there any terrior? wasn't it supposed to aspire to american rye?

[...]

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I would say, no Canadian Whisky does not aspire to be American rye.

They are separate traditions governed by different regulations.

Maybe someone else who is more of an expert in Canadian Whisky can talk more about the traditions and regulations.

Some facts:

My understanding is immigrants in North America soon discovered that their favorite grain, barley, did not grow very well in the New World. So they adapted their distilling traditions to new grains.

In the Northern parts of the New World, Rye was often the primary grain, and in the South, Corn.

Much of the whisky made in Canada is made in a manner most similar to blended Scotch.

As economics and science flattened the types of grain available in different areas of the New World, whisk(e)y producers were able to blend more grains into their products.

Many of the larger Canadian whisky producers came of age during American Prohibition supplying large volumes of "Rye" to thirsty Americans.

There are currently some Canadian distillers aspiring to bring their products closer to American or Scotch Whisk(e)ys.

My point was, if you've got to have a Canadian Whisky behind the bar, why not make it one from one of the newer Canadian producers who is trying to re-invigorate the tradition and also interested in the craft of whisky making? Not just a mega-producer marketed by a global spirits conglomerate.

re: Terroir

I suggest you give a read to this recent NY Times essay from chef Daniel Patterson and Food Scientist Harold McGee: Talk Dirt to Me (link may require registration and/or payment). The short summary is, what many people perceive as "terroir" in wine has less to do with actual dirt and more to do with the craft and tradition of the winemaker.

Edited May 23, 2007 by eje (log)

[savethedeli]

Three points:

1. An interesting thing is that Canadian Whisky really grew in prominence because of USA prohibition. Thanks America! We couldn't have had Crown Royal without you.

2. When my grandfather died in 1992, we found about a dozen bottles of Crown dating back to the 1960's that clients gave him. He never drank. We did. It can only be described as honey kissed liquid gold.

3. For my tastes there is no finer cocktail than the rye and ginger. Introduced it to a New York friend this weekend and she was in love. With the drink...

[eje]

Is there a particular cocktail where you find the 40 Creek really shines? I've quite enjoyed drinking it on its own, but I find that it doesn't have quite enough of a presence in the mixed drinks I've made.

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Well, I only picked it up for the Savoy Cocktail Book recipes that specifically call for some sort of Canadian Whisky. I haven't experimented a huge amount with it.

The one which impressed me most recently was this:

Byrrh Cocktail

I was initially tempted to sub in American Rye Whiskey; but, after I tasted the cocktail with the Forty Creek, I realized that changing the whisky would have been a mistake. A stronger flavored whisk(e)y would have completely blown the balance of the drink.

Edited May 23, 2007 by eje (log)

[angusw]

Quickly but I think you will find two interestign things when looking at Canadian Whisky definition:

1. it can include 9.09% of any liquid you want to give it flavour.

2. It must "have the characteristics of Canadian whisky"

3. It muts be made in Canada.

Thats about it.

Point 1 is worrying

Point 2 is hilarious

aw

[dsoneil]

Canadian whisky is one of those spirits that is popular because it aspires to be easy going and smooth. When introducing someone to whisky for the first time, you usually try to go easy on them. Canadian whisky is a great starting point, as is Irish whiskey.

As for why it is popular is because of prohibition first and foremost. Second American whiskey (not bourbon) isn't very good. If you look at the laws for American whisky it is only required to contain 20% whiskey that has been aged for 2 years. It can include up to 80% unaged neutral grain spirit. This is a left over of prohibition because the American people demanded whisky, but there wasn't a lot of American whiskey to go around.

Now, bourbon is a good whiskey, but for many years people weren't impressed. Younger bourbon can have an overbearing quality that makes people call it "fire water". Well aged bourbon is a fine spirit.

Crown Royal is popular because it is a good whisky. It regularly makes the top ten list of the worlds most popular brands.

If some people want to boycott Canadian whisky, fine, but aside from nationalistic interest, what's the point? Any experienced bartender knows that there are three things you never discuss behind the bar, and for review they are:

1. Religion

2. Family

3. Politics

Making a particular spirit a point of contention between a bartender and their client is the same as talking politics or religion. As a bartender it is our job to serve drinks and provide guidance, but an out right boycott is playing politics.

[thirtyoneknots]

2.  When my grandfather died in 1992, we found about a dozen bottles of Crown dating back to the 1960's that clients gave him. He never drank.  We did.  It can only be described as honey kissed liquid gold. 

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I would love to try some old Crown Royal. I suspect it was previously of more interesting character prior to becoming a mass-market product.

And regarding spirits 'boycott' at least in my case the bar I work at was not designed with a surplus of storage space (there is no liquor storage on the backbar and we have to keep it all in rails or cabinets), so we're always trying to keep brands that are more versatile. Whiskies such as Crown Royal and Jack Daniels may be popular brands, but neither is very good as a mixer (unless you count coke). JD is too distinctive and Crown too light in flavor and body. That is my primary grievance with these two brands. Nothing personal, but man customers sure do take it that way

-Andy

[bostonapothecary]

[...]

what makes a canadian whiskey good and defines the varietal? what is the greatest thing it can aspire to? is there any terrior? wasn't it supposed to aspire to american rye?

[...]

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re: Terroir

I suggest you give a read to this recent NY Times essay from chef Daniel Patterson and Food Scientist Harold McGee: Talk Dirt to Me (link may require registration and/or payment). The short summary is, what many people perceive as "terroir" in wine has less to do with actual dirt and more to do with the craft and tradition of the winemaker.

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is a wine agronomical or oenological..... the oenological usually dominates. but the soil can speak. varietal expressions of cabernet in alexander valley vs. bolgheri italy.... yesterday i talked to a wine maker on the exact topic. i asked if he could differentiate his mount veeder zinfandel from amador county. he said that so much is covered up by style of the wine maker which confuses the terrior's expression. he said the difference was their mount veeder fruit has more acidity which definitely defines flavors and that is something a wine maker can't mess with too much.

[eje]

is a wine agronomical or oenological..... the oenological usually dominates. but the soil can speak. varietal expressions of cabernet in alexander valley vs. bolgheri italy....  yesterday i talked to a wine maker on the exact topic. i asked if he could differentiate his mount veeder zinfandel from amador county. he said that so much is covered up by style of the wine maker which confuses the terrior's expression.  he said the difference was their mount veeder fruit has more acidity which definitely defines flavors and that is something a wine maker can't mess with too much.

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I know one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn as a cook is letting the ingredients speak for themselves simply and directly. I have a tendency to try to "improve" things by embellishing or adding ingredients.

Sometimes the best way to enjoy a tomato, still warm and freshly picked from the garden, is simply by slicing it and sprinkling on a little salt and pepper. OK, maybe gild the lily with some olive oil.

I'm sure wine makers have to learn a similar lesson, to get the best out of their grapes.

And to get back to bartenders and whisk(e)y...

A lot of bartenders could use some practice in letting their ingredients speak simply and clearly, before moving on to concocting overly complex, exotic new creations.*

A well made Old-Fashioned Cocktail, (spirits, sugar, bitters, twist), whether it is made with American or Canadian Whisk(e)y, doesn't need to be "improved".

edit- *By the way, I am not trying to make pointed comments directed at anyone in particular. I am referring more to the proliferation of faux-tini bar menus involving vodka, some sort of fruit, and some other exotic flavor. Seems to happen more at restaurants than bars, and it is always best to stick with beer in that situation.

Edited May 24, 2007 by eje (log)

[haresfur]

I'm getting more into distilled spirits (and trying to make up for lost time ) so I'm no expert but I'm pretty impressed with Tangle Ridge 100% rye from Canada.

[phlip]

dsoneil did I read right. American whiskey isn't any good. Your right on just like cuban rum and french cognac are equally undrinkable. Simply put the reason people drink Canadian whiskey and only canadian whiskey is the same reason people drink vodka instead of gin or Barcardi instead of Appletons or Barbancourt. The fact is non-entities such as vodka or canadian whiskey dumb down palates to the point where bland equals good and flavor equals bad. I don't think I've ever read anything on Egullet as foolish as your statement about American whiskey.

40 creek was Canada's only hope. Keep hoping.

Long live Rittenhouse Rye. The best 16 dollars possibly spent in the world.

Here is a thought. A sazerac made with canadian club. Shudder.

[slkinsey]

I think there is a misunderstanding here. While straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon whiskey are American whiskies in the sense that they are whiskies from America, they are not "American Whiskey" in the same sense as we mean by "Canadian Whisky."

The post to which you are responding seems to indicate that Darcy is speaking of American blended whiskey. This is defined under 27 CFR 5.22(b)(4) as "a mixture which contains straight whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis, excluding alcohol derived from added harmless coloring, flavoring or blending materials, and, separately, or in combination, whisky or neutral spirits." I have to agree that American blended whiskey doesn't, as a rule, tend to be very good stuff.

As far as I know, Michter's US1 is the only unblended bottling calling itself "American Whiskey" rather than bourbon, rye, etc. -- and I think it's noteworthy that they took the trouble to put the word "unblended" right on the label.

Edited May 20, 2008 by slkinsey (log)

[bostonapothecary]

I think there is a misunderstanding here.  While straight rye whiskey and straight bourbon whiskey are American whiskies in the sense that they are whiskies from America, they are not "American Whiskey" in the same sense as we mean by "Canadian Whisky."

The post to which you are responding seems to indicate that Darcy is speaking of American blended whiskey.  This is defined under 27 CFR 5.22(b)(4) as "a mixture which contains straight whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis, excluding alcohol derived from added harmless coloring, flavoring or blending materials, and, separately, or in combination, whisky or neutral spirits."  I have to agree that American blended whiskey doesn't, as a rule, tend to be very good stuff.

As far as I know, Michter's US1 is the only unblended bottling calling itself "American Whiskey" rather than bourbon, rye, etc. -- and I think it's noteworthy that they took the trouble to put the word "unblended" right on the label.

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what are some brand examples of things labeled as "american whiskey" that i might know?

is this amerian whiskey hyped as good stuff and over marketed or is it produced like jug wine because there is a time and place for it... (but definitely not my bar)

[brinza]

what are some brand examples of things labeled as "american whiskey" that i might know?

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Seagram' 7 Crown would probably be the most well-known example.

http://whisky.vangeest.nl/Images/Whiskies/...crown_label.jpg

[slkinsey]

Shenley Reserve is another example. Most any crappy blended made in the States is likely to be called "blended American whiskey" or "American blended whiskey."