Best Steakhouse

[milla]

An excellent cook can perfectly roast an average chicken and it’ll be great, an excellent cook can’t turn an average steak into a great steak served the way it is in a steakhouse.  Average quality meat can make spectacular braised dishes, stews, tacos, etc. Once you strip a dish down to one ingredient and some fire the end result depends on the quality of the ingredient more than it does in normal dishes.

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My emphasis above. Do you really think that’s true? I’ll wager you haven’t had a great chicken or just don’t appreciate the different between a good hen and a great one. There’s no way you can roast a an average chicken and have it taste like a great chicken. The best you can do is add extraneous flavor like garlic or herbs. There are posts on the France forum that will attest to the fact that members have had a simple roast chicken in France that made them wonder if they’d ever eaten a real chicken before.

It's really not a good sign that the best steak in CA is supposed to be in the middle of nowhere between SF and LA

Another point about France is that some of the country's best restaurants are in the middle of nowhere. Michel Bras is not even in the middle of two destinations. You have to make a side trip from the road to nowhere.

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agreed on all of the above, well said, and thanks.

Tomatoes, oil, salt, balsamic, etc. is not a "moronic" procedure but requires a sense of balance, knowledge and skill acquired through time, diligence and care. A "moron" or a skilled cook with a sense of respect given those same ingredients? Whose dish would you choose to eat?

Such as steak.

A steakhouse in the middle of nowhere IS a good thing. Jocko's is located in the Santa Maria Valley, literally next door to its beef supplier. Apparently they fire up red oak fires (only at dinner, not at lunch!) and cook the meat slowly. They even prepare whole sweetbreads roasted over the slow fire. It is so different from East Coast, I can't wait to try it.What else do you want for a California steakhouse?

Average quality meat can make spectacular braised dishes, stews, tacos, etc.

You can't take average anything and make it spectacular. It is impossible.

Bras? Now there is a steakhouse! Cote du Boeuf d"Aubrac "pur race" anyone? You betchya...

[melkor]

An excellent cook can perfectly roast an average chicken and it’ll be great, an excellent cook can’t turn an average steak into a great steak served the way it is in a steakhouse.  Average quality meat can make spectacular braised dishes, stews, tacos, etc. Once you strip a dish down to one ingredient and some fire the end result depends on the quality of the ingredient more than it does in normal dishes.

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My emphasis above. Do you really think that’s true? I’ll wager you haven’t had a great chicken or just don’t appreciate the different between a good hen and a great one. There’s no way you can roast a an average chicken and have it taste like a great chicken. The best you can do is add extraneous flavor like garlic or herbs. There are posts on the France forum that will attest to the fact that members have had a simple roast chicken in France that made them wonder if they’d ever eaten a real chicken before.

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My point is obviously not that an average bird can be roasted to be the perfect example of roast chicken. I really do think that the skill of the person roasting a chicken has far more to do with the end result than the skill of a person cooking a steak - I'm stunned anyone would argue otherwise. In much the same way as a good taco-truck taco is made with average quality ingredients at best yet it still is a great thing to eat - some dishes showcase the ingredients, others showcase the skill of the cook, others showcase both. Steak is one of those dishes that showcases the ingredients and the price of high-prime beef makes it unlikely that a restaurant in a town of 12,000 people would be able to buy those top-grade carcases.

As I've said in every other post, I'll be thrilled if Jocko's has amazing steaks - if milla comes back and says they are serving unbelievable steaks then I'll likely get there sooner. I'm still a skeptic.

[melkor]

Average quality meat can make spectacular braised dishes, stews, tacos, etc.

You can't take average anything and make it spectacular. It is impossible.

Bras? Now there is a steakhouse! Cote du Boeuf d"Aubrac "pur race" anyone? You betchya...

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You really don't think street food can be spectacular? I've had plenty of food I'd consider spectacular made with ingredients I'd rather not know the origins of. Shwarma stalls in the middle-east being at the top of the list when it comes to amazing food from questionable quality ingredients. Some of the taco trucks here in Northern CA are selling some really good food as well. In general I think we agree with each other, so rather than continuing to argue about nothing I'd rather wait for you to get back from your trip with a report on Jocko’s. Hopefully you'll find an unbelievable meal and I'll be forced to take a road trip soon afterwards. I’d truly be thrilled to get a spectacular steak in CA.

[Carolyn Tillie]

it unlikely that a restaurant in a town of 12,000 people would be able to buy those top-grade carcases. 

Methinks you don't understand California very well -- these little towns with 12,000 people is where these cows are being raised so these folks have better access to the carcasses than any of us that have to wait for them to be shipped.

It is the Alice Waters' philosophy of acquiring your products where they are produced -- not waiting for them to be shipped *somewhere.*

While I have not had Jocko's, I have had meat prepared where it is a raised and there is a remarkable difference.

[milla]

You really don't think street food can be spectacular?  I've had plenty of food I'd consider spectacular made with ingredients I'd rather not know the origins of.  Shwarma stalls in the middle-east being at the top of the list when it comes to amazing food from questionable quality ingredients.  Some of the taco trucks here in Northern CA are selling some really good food as well.  In general I think we agree with each other, so rather than continuing to argue about nothing I'd rather wait for you to get back from your trip with a report on Jocko’s.  Hopefully you'll find an unbelievable meal and I'll be forced to take a road trip soon afterwards.  I’d truly be thrilled to get a spectacular steak in CA.

don't put words in my mouth. i NEVER said anything about street food. that is for another thread, one in which I will respectfully disagree with you again if you argue that mediocre ingredient turned into amazing dish magical crap.

I thought we were trying to discuss steaks in California as everyone else had been doing until we got the NY is better BS over and over again. I now realize that perhaps we were indeed arguing about nothing.

I don't think you really have grasped my point from the beginning, though Bux did right away. I do not think that, in general we have agreed with each other on this thread

We are not in NY. We don't have Luger's. Not everyone can shop on the Upper East Side for their beef.

This is Cali. Jocko's probably doesn't buy high prime carcasses, what with them being in the heart of small family beef ranches in California, why should they?

So does that mean I have given up attempting to finding a good steak or having to invest in a furnace to cook one at home that meets the Lobel's seal of approval? Sounds like it is tough to have any kind of fun with that attitude. Sorry, I don't buy it nor I would guess do alot of people on eGullet-California. I choose to have fun, explore, learn and discuss. And if I have just an ok or mediocre meal, so what? It is part of the learning experience. I mean seriously, fly to NY and eat your steak if that is all you will allow pass your muster, but that is kind of silly.

I am going to eat at Jocko's and I will post my experience but other than that I really have no desire to "argue about nothing" anymore either.

Cheers

[melkor]

it unlikely that a restaurant in a town of 12,000 people would be able to buy those top-grade carcases. 

Methinks you don't understand California very well -- these little towns with 12,000 people is where these cows are being raised so these folks have better access to the carcasses than any of us that have to wait for them to be shipped.

It is the Alice Waters' philosophy of acquiring your products where they are produced -- not waiting for them to be shipped *somewhere.*

While I have not had Jocko's, I have had meat prepared where it is a raised and there is a remarkable difference.

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Much in the same way as Bux is suggesting that roast chicken must be experienced in a rural french bistro I'm absolutely willing to argue that California steakhouses are not in the same league as Peter Luger in NY. My original reason for starting this thread was to find out if that was a reasonable thing to expect and as badthings, Malik, and dfunghi have already pointed out earlier in this thread if you want a perfect steak you need to look outside CA.

The Alice Water's philosophy only goes so far - for example no one in his or her right mind would argue that you are better off with balsamic vinegar produced in California than Modena. Beef travels well - local does not in any way guarantee a superior product.

I don’t understand why people feel the need to argue that California has the best everything. We’ve clearly got better produce available here than almost anywhere else in the country, we’ve got the French Laundry which is arguably the best restaurant in the country, we’ve got unbelievable sushi in SoCal, the list goes on and on, why is it unreasonable to suggest that a top-notch steakhouse isn’t on the list?

[tanabutler]

Melkor, I am so puzzled.

You solicited input, and yet seem to be closed to anything that doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notion about the dearth of good steakhouses to be found in California. You received intelligent information from an extremely knowledgeable and well-informed person (that would be Milla, whose culinary (ongoing) education and experience are unsurpassed in this community). Yet you continue to decry the remotest possibility that a good steakhouse exists here.

Both Bux and Milla make a case for A) being open-minded and B) being willing to be surprised (and thus, wrong). I don't think that those who have posted that, yes, there might be some great steaks in California are being chauvinistic—but your tone seems to indicate that you take umbrage at those who present you with thoughtful evidence.

Very puzzling. It's like you just don't want to hear it, which makes me wonder why you asked to begin with. (I think your pessimism may be crippling you here. I'm sure there are some great steaks out here! Let's go find 'em!)

I'd be interested in measuring the quality of the so-called "greatest steaks in America" by the purity of the conditions under which they were produced. If the cattle are fed hormones and chemically-treated, pesticide-poisoned feed, it's NOT a great steak, but a serious health risk and a detriment to an already much-threatened environment.

Upthread, Malik posited that there's just not the market for steakhouses in California. Well, I live in the People's Republic of Santa Cruz, home to more vegans per capita (I'd be willing to bet) than just about anywhere in the country. Be that as it may, the Hindquarter, the local steakhouse, has been open for over fifteen years, and still does the booming business. They have managed to adapt to the changing diet of patrons who express interest in grass-fed beef, and have added it (and other sustainable, healthier choices) to the menu. (I am not suggesting that the HQ will meet your criterion, just addressing the idea that even hippies like good meat.)

Anyway, I am looking forward to the Jocko report. I'm tempted to hitchhike there myself.

[melkor]

I'm not clear why you'd be puzzled... I posted 9 months ago asking about the state of steak here in CA and I got a fair number of restaurant recommendations and a few comments about going to NY for steak. I visited several of the restaurants recommended on the thread, all proved vastly inferior to what is being offered on the other coast. I've never questioned nor doubted milla's culinary experience or knowledge nor do I now doubt either.

Take a look at both the number of cattle being harvested in California and what type of cattle they are - here is a report showing some recent harvest stats. California unlike any other significant beef producing state kills more dairy cows for beef than steer. Of the steer we raise a portion of them are grass fed which excludes them from the discussion as grass fed cattle don't have the marbling required for a spectacular steak. Raising prime steers isn't on the agenda here, the harvest stats reflect that. 1,500lb steers need an awful lot more land than 800lb cows do, they take longer to raise, they need more food, and given the cost of land here compared to the cost of land in Kansas, Nebraska, or Texas it just doesn't make sense for our ranchers to be raising them in any significant quantity. For the better part of the past year I've been buying grass fed beef from a local rancher to use in burgers, chili, stews, braises, etc - I'm thrilled with the product they provide me, but the steaks from their cattle are without a doubt lower quality than what even Niman offers.

I've no doubt that several good steakhouses exist in California, I am on the other hand very doubtful that a great steakhouse exists here. Again and again I've said I'd be thrilled to be wrong. My expectation in posting this thread was that someone (or several people) would chime in and say to check out X-Restaurant in a major metro area where enough people would be willing to pay the $50+ a plate it costs to serve properly aged high-prime steaks cooked by a skilled staff.

I'm for the most part with you on the whole crazy-treehugger thing () at least when it comes to the food I eat. Most of the year almost all of the produce we eat comes from our chemical free garden, the salmon we eat I often catch myself, all our non-steak beef comes from local grass fed cows that are raised by a family that truly cares for their cattle, the produce we buy is organic as much as possible, we buy very little in the way of canned or processed food - hell we make our own ketchup. That only goes so far, grass fed steaks are absolutely inferior to their grain fed cousins, in taste, in texture, in every way - I often choose to eat grass fed steaks, but I don't pretend they taste better than what is produced through conventional ranching.

Incidentally Gayot seems to think the food is better at Acme in SF than Jocko's - hopefully they are wrong.

Melkor, I am so puzzled.

You solicited input, and yet seem to be closed to anything that doesn't conform to your pre-conceived notion about the dearth of good steakhouses to be found in California. You received intelligent information from an extremely knowledgeable and well-informed person (that would be Milla, whose culinary (ongoing) education and experience are unsurpassed in this community). Yet you continue to decry the remotest possibility that a good steakhouse exists here.

Both Bux and Milla make a case for A) being open-minded and B) being willing to be surprised (and thus, wrong). I don't think that those who have posted that, yes, there might be some great steaks in California are being chauvinistic—but your tone seems to indicate that you take umbrage at those who present you with thoughtful evidence.

Very puzzling. It's like you just don't want to hear it, which makes me wonder why you asked to begin with. (I think your pessimism may be crippling you here. I'm sure there are some great steaks out here! Let's go find 'em!)

I'd be interested in measuring the quality of the so-called "greatest steaks in America" by the purity of the conditions under which they were produced. If the cattle are fed hormones and chemically-treated, pesticide-poisoned feed, it's NOT a great steak, but a serious health risk and a detriment to an already much-threatened environment.

Upthread, Malik posited that there's just not the market for steakhouses in California. Well, I live in the People's Republic of Santa Cruz, home to more vegans per capita (I'd be willing to bet) than just about anywhere in the country. Be that as it may, the Hindquarter, the local steakhouse, has been open for over fifteen years, and still does the booming business. They have managed to adapt to the changing diet of patrons who express interest in grass-fed beef, and have added it (and other sustainable, healthier choices) to the menu. (I am not suggesting that the HQ will meet your criterion, just addressing the idea that even hippies like good meat.)

Anyway, I am looking forward to the Jocko report. I'm tempted to hitchhike there myself. 

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[Juanito]

Re: Jocko's - you may find the steaks delicious, but not on a level of a Spark's or Luger's, IMO.

The raw material simply isn't the same - they don't use Prime, they use Choice. There's nothing really special about the meat they buy, their location in cow country notwithstanding. They buy pretty much the same meat as any other restaurant up and down the street, IBP choice, which is shipped in from the midwest. No special specifications, just the same stuff you could buy at Costco.

So whatever you are tasting when eating there, is derived from the seasoning and cooking over the oak. They offer neither a steak house feel, nor the traditional sides one would expect at a steakhouse.

I think in a discussion about the best "steak houses", anyplace not using dry aged Prime really shouldn't make the cut. And the 1500 degree salamander really does make all the difference - I don't think that can be replicated at home.

[steakas]

I've long since given up on steak in CA.  If you want an amazing steak just order one from Lobels and cook it at home.

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I agree with you.

A little over a year ago I read a review about a NJ steakhouse that made mention of Harris' & Luger's as the "countries best." This review seemed to have come from a reliable source, so my natural thought was Harris' is comparable to Luger's. It wasn't. In fact, the steak at Harris' cannot compare to what's offered at some of the "better" steakhouses on the East coast. Additionally, the other parts of the meal were somewhat mediocre.

I'm currently exploring CA and I was going to end my trip with a dinner at Cole's. Maybe I'm being unfair but if Harris' is the exemplar for steak in CA then I won't waste my money on steak out here. My East taste buds are simply spoiled.

From my ongoing expedition of CA I've discovered other great places which wouldn't be appropriate for this part of the forum.

Melkor: if you like Lobel's, also give John's meat market a try. I think it'll equally satisfy your steak needs at a lesser price.

"You never have a second chance to make a first impression."

[melkor]

I assume I need to call John's to order from them, their website has no info on pricing for anything other than their random "5 day" assortment packages. I'd be quite happy to be able to buy that beef that quality without paying Lobel's prices, so I'll give John's a shot. Thanks for the tip.

[steakas]

Yeah, give them a call. Their bone-in strip is about $19/lb. If you like sweet Italian sausage give that a try too. Tell me about their steak.

Thanks

:Dave

[jschyun]

so melkor, is Cole's still the best steak you've had in CA?

Thanks for the tip steakas!

[melkor]

Yeah, Cole's is still at the top of the list.