Wine Service at a Prix Fixe Restaurant

[raych77]

Hello all...

I'm hoping all of you can help a budding foodie in her quest for greatness. When you visit a prix fixe restaurant such as Trio, or Trotters and you order the "Wine Service" what exactly happens? I haven't been to a really fancy schmancy place since I was a kid and I wasn't paying much attention to wine. So now I'm a little older and in a position to go a little fancy once in a while again, but I'd rather not make an ass out of myself if at all possible!

Anyway, if somebody could give me the wine service primer for dummies I'd really appreciate it!

Thanks!

Rachael

[jbraynolds]

Most restaurants that offer it would call it a "Wine Pairing" and it basically involves the sommelier's choices of wines to accompany the dishes in the meal. At a place like Trotter's, with up to a dozen courses, it might not mean a different glass of wine with each and every course, it might be wines that "bridge" courses. Same deal with Tru. However, if you're game, they'll gladly match wines with each and every course. The pours will be about half what would be a "by the glass" pour, meaning about two-two and a half ounces. With the all-over-the-map possibilities, food-wise at these places, the wine pairing is a good call.

[Brad Ballinger]

One thing to ask about the various wine pairing options (if it matters to you) is the price. Typically, diners at Trotter's, Tru, and Trio won't care about the price. But one can be shocked at the cost of the wine pairing compared to the cost of one or two bottles of wine. Trotter's, in particular, has a separate wines under $75 section of the list (although that cap price may be higher now), and some glass pours may cost you $25/glass.

[Lady T]

Just checked the CT's website: the $75-and-under section is still there, and still extensive. They also have half-bottle and by-the-glass ($60/glass for '95 Dom Perignon: understandable but ow!) options.

The flight of wine pairings that accompanies the kitchen-table menu was $85 the last time I was at CT's...but I planned for it, and wrote it off, if only in my own delusions, as an educational investment. It turned out to be so, actually, by the time I finished asking questions about what they poured and doing the comparison/contrast with what my own pairings might have been to those foods seasoned and sauced just as they were that night. If you can spare the dinero, I'd recommend it.

[iguana]

If you can spare the dinero, I'd recommend it.

I second this-- with a multi-course meal, the optimal wine changes so much with each course that one bottle would never do. I took my husband to Tru for his birthday this weekend-- he got the wine pairing and enjoyed it immensely-- both in the taste of the meal, and as a contribution to his wine education. The sommelier came up with pairings we never would have tried. At the end they gave us a printed menu with each wine pairing. I was not drinking that night and I feel like I missed out . It's worth every penny, if you have the pennies-- or better yet, if they're someone else's pennies!

[raych77]

Thank you all so much for the education. My friend and I were discussing this at great length the other night. We couldn't decide if there would be a full glass of wine per course, if it would be a half a glass, or in the case of the Tour de Fource at Trio - 20 glasses of wine?!?!?! I'm a wimp when it comes to holding my drink - I wouldn't make it past 3.

So it's off to Puerto Vallarta to eat lots of good cheap Mexican food, then back to Chi-Town to my big birthday bash at Trio, which with your help will go alot smoother!

Thanks again!

Rachael

[ducphat30]

I recently ate at Trio, Tour de Force, with the wine pairings. First of all, there is no way that we would have been able to match the wines with the foods ourselves, in terms of the scope of beverages we had the opportunity to try. I would like to stress that at no time did any of us ever feel like we were being overserved or underserved in terms of quantity. What we did recieve were, to quote "My Cousin Vinny"," dead-on-balls-accurate" pairings with the courses that enhanced our overall dining experience. I'd like to think that I know a little bit about wine, but when you put yourself in the hands of experts it makes the evening that more enjoyable. So if you're "going out", especially to celebrate I cannot reccommend highly enough to put yourself in the incredible hands that are the dining room staff at Trio.

[tammylc]

Thank you all so much for the education. My friend and I were discussing this at great length the other night. We couldn't decide if there would be a full glass of wine per course, if it would be a half a glass, or in the case of the Tour de Fource at Trio - 20 glasses of wine?!?!?! I'm a wimp when it comes to holding my drink - I wouldn't make it past 3.

I did the Tour de Force recently, and I think there were around 15 different pairings. I split the pairing with one of my dining companions, and that was plenty for the two of us.

Enjoy your meal! Trio had a lot of unusual and interesting wines for us to try out, and as a budding wine geek, I really enjoyed talking with our server about the various pairings. He even brought us a bonus glass of sherry to try based off of something we'd been talking about.

[Scott]

It depends on what you're looking for, though it sounds like you're trying to 'maximise' the experience. Fair enough. The wine pairing will add a little more theatre, and greater sense of opulence. Do not get too confused over this supposed perfect wine and food match thingy. It's a load of cobblers.

If you like you're wine, but don't know too much, it could be fun to try a few things. If it's not too important just choose a nice middle weight bottle of wine and save yourself a bucket.

There is a lot of money to be made by offering these flights, but please don't expect a precise prescription for vinous/food ecstacy. The sommelier should just as easily be able to tell you what is looking good at the moment for your budget or what is a general all rounder.

if it's a special occasion, maybe the theatrics justify the cost.

They will bring out a lot of small serves usually just before each dish - make them explain exactly what each wine is, and why it has been chosen often junior wait staff just plonk this stuff down as instructed. Not always, but more often that i care to remember.

Best of luck. Also remember that a lot of highly creative cooking is not very wine friendly, so if they are offering an expensive wine service it's not always for your benefit!!

[Scott]

With the all-over-the-map possibilities, food-wise at these places, the wine pairing is a good call.

are you sure? I'd have thought exactly the opposite is true.

With Gagniere or Adria as an example, the more the creative the food, the less wine suits it.

[tammylc]

With the all-over-the-map possibilities, food-wise at these places, the wine pairing is a good call.

are you sure? I'd have thought exactly the opposite is true.

With Gagniere or Adria as an example, the more the creative the food, the less wine suits it.

I think jbraynolds point is that because the food is so creative and all-over-the-map, it's hard to pick a couple of bottles on your own that will go with the meal. Better to let the restaurant do the matching, since they know the food and their wine. At least at Trio, they do a remarkably good job of coming up with pairings for some of their whackier food items (and let you know when "no wine with this one" is the right answer).

[Scott]

With the all-over-the-map possibilities, food-wise at these places, the wine pairing is a good call.

are you sure? I'd have thought exactly the opposite is true.

With Gagniere or Adria as an example, the more the creative the food, the less wine suits it.

I think jbraynolds point is that because the food is so creative and all-over-the-map, it's hard to pick a couple of bottles on your own that will go with the meal. Better to let the restaurant do the matching, since they know the food and their wine. At least at Trio, they do a remarkably good job of coming up with pairings for some of their whackier food items (and let you know when "no wine with this one" is the right answer).

I suspect what they do a great job of, is selling you expensive (and ludicrously profitable) flights of wine.

Not to mention convincing you that this great secret science couldn't possibly be done cheaper or better yourself.

food all over the map, should lead more to the middle ground not away from it. That seems to be the position of the more cutting edge chefs.

I just do not believe the actual degustatory experience is really helped that much by these flights. It's fun to have more wine, it's nice grandeur to have people fussing over you constantly, but I don't really feel this elevates the sensory appreciation of what is consumed.

Besides these flights are usually filled with pretty pedestrian wine, whose only merit (besides chunky GP) is their nebulous, symbiotic relationship with a given dish. Until the next seasonal dish it miraculously mates with.

[Wilson]

I suspect what they do a great job of, is selling you expensive (and ludicrously profitable) flights of wine. Not to mention convincing you that this great secret science couldn't possibly be done cheaper or better yourself.

It really depends on the place, and of course the rising popularity of wine pairings will certainly bring the shysters out of the woodwork. Still, I think you're being too cynical. Wine pairings, if done with real care, can be great.

I just do not believe the actual degustatory experience is really helped that much by these flights. It's fun to have more wine, it's nice grandeur to have people fussing over you constantly, but I don't really feel this elevates the sensory appreciation of what is consumed.

This sounds really jaded. Is that for effect, or are you actually that bored? Maybe you're spending too much time in high-end food palaces. You know, the old "familiarity breeds contempt" thing?

At Lucas Carton in Paris they served a Corton with a delicate fish course. We had previously drunk Corton and not liked it, finding it too floral for our sensibilities. But the pairing made us realize that we had simply not paired Corton with the right food. They paired a chocolate dessert with a vintage port, and it was as if I had never really tasted either port or chocolate before. I told our waiter that I hadn't only eaten lunch but had received an education. Last month at Mistral in Seattle, their pairing of a 1983 Disznoko Tokaji Aszu 6 Putonyos with fois gras was transcendent. It's a deep red, almost brown, wine that seems like a cross between a sauterne and a port yet lighter than both. It was just perfect with the foie gras.

Mistral picked some really interting wines for other courses. They found a sauvingnon blanc from Napa Valley (Mason) that was fantastic. Forman chardonnay from Napa was substantial yet not as overpowering as my prior favorite, Kistler. Arcadian (small producer) pinot noir from the Monterey coast was a lot more elegant than the fruit bombs characteristic of Oregon. I kept the Mistral menu and have slowly been seeking out the wines they served that night. I'd had never found them on my own.

Besides these flights are usually filled with pretty pedestrian wine

That hasn't been my experience at all. At Lucas Carton and Mistral, they put a lot of thought into it. The wines at Charlie Trotter's weren't as memorable to me, but I recognized most of the names and knew how much they cost. We certainly were not being ripped off in the context of Trotter's, which is a very expensive restaurant. Also, L'Espalier in Boston has found interesting small-batch wines that interacted with the food in a phenomenal way.

Edited January 30, 2004 by Wilson (log)

[Wilson]

I need to correct my last post. I wrote that we had been served a "Corton" at Lucas Carton. Not so. We were served a Condrieu.

[Scott]

Wilson,

I was going to bore both of us with a longer reply, but I decided against it.

Obviously we disagree, and perhaps some of this stems from relative experience and expectation.

You suggest I am jaded, rather I think I know enough to not believe in the tooth fairy, easter bunny, and the myth of sommelier omnipotence. That you recognised some of the wines served to you at Trotters seems to suggest a very low expectation.

As it happens Lucas Carton has some of the finest wines by the glass of any restaurant in the world. These are essentially very fine, and often do provide sufficient maturity and complexity to enhance a dish - at great cost. When I was last at Lucas Carton last they were pairing 1985 Ch. Palmer with the signature duck apicus - at 60 euro a glass!!!

Most of what you will get anywhere else will be pedestrian wine that does not possess the requisite complexity or maturity to really add to your food, but is a convenient way of getting non wine punters to part with whacks of cash.

Consider this poor girl here, she wants to get the most bang for her buck out of the dining experience - how is spending $170 on wine (based on 2 people) going to do that. It's not necessary and it excessive.

~edit~

I should add, that I am certainly not anti sommelier at all, but one worth their salt should be able to find you something suitable for a lot, lot less money than that.

Edited February 3, 2004 by Scott (log)

[tammylc]

Spending the money on wine is totally worth it to me. I'm a budding wine geek, and like to try a lot of different things. I'd much rather do a wine pairing and get to explore than buy a single bottle, even if it might be a little less expensive overall.