Pennsylvania Liquor Laws

[hollywood]

Last week, I was in Ebensburg, PA. I tried to find some wine. Had to run around to locate a state run liquor store. The selection of wine was nothing to write home about. I did buy one bottle just for emergencies. Then, I went to a restaurant called Off the RAK for dinner. The steak was OK. Bad sign though, they only had mediocre wine by the glass. No bottles. So, I asked if I could get the bottle out of my car and use their so-so glassware. Nothing doing, I was told. It would jeopardize their license. Allegedly, the owner of the restaurant could not even bring wine from home for his own use unless it had been supplied by the state under his license. Is this for real? I don't get it. What's the point?

[JPW]

Yes, it is for real. The liquor laws in Pennsylvania are the worst. There is no point other than the fact that the state makes an incredible amount of revenue from its monopoly on booze. My personal favorite is the part that disallows any liquor sales on Sunday except in restaurants that have to annually (?) prove that at least 50% of their sales are food.

I do recall growing up that there were a couple of places that allowed you to BYOB. I can't recall the exact laws, but I believe that it requires a particular type of license for restaurants to allow BYOB.

[beans]

Ditto for oHIo.

Believe it or not, Penn can get some wines oHIo doesn't or won't.

Free the Grapes!

BYOB's tend to be the small handfull of restaurants that are starting up, open for business and are in the process of obtaining a liquor license.

[JPW]

Hey beans,

If you use that sig line you need to include the link.

FREE THE GRAPES

[beans]

Hey beans,

If you use that sig line you need to include the link.

FREE THE GRAPES

True. My bad.

I was going for a large and purple expression.

Thanks for picking up my slack.

[Phil Ward]

Having cut my teeth in the Old PLCB stores (walk up counter and clerks who did not have a clue), there is now vast improvement as to selection, availability and they are even opening a handful of stores on Sunday. They have a pretty good web site: PA Wines and Spirits

And they are the largest single buyer of wines and spirits in the USA as an entity 'cause everything goes through the PLCB.

Phil

[rshorens]

My brother lives in State College, PA. I send him surreptitious cartons of wine 2 bottles at a time and mail it from California via the USPS, under the don't ask/don't tell policy.

[herbacidal]

I think there are 3-5 states that control all liquor and wine sold.

PA being the one with the largest population, it is the largest single buyer of wine.

IIRC (probably from a thread here previously) WA is worse,

although I don't recall the particulars.

Can anyone who has experience with both systems comment further?

I understand Utah has an even worse system, with drinking not allowed unless a member of a particular establishment?

I know there's a previous thread somewhere, just too lazy to look it up.

I imagine the surge in quality BYOBs in Ohio is a reaction to the problems with liquor selection and possibly liquor license acquisition problems.

Philadelphia metro's ever-increasing crop of quality BYOBs is no doubt because of this.

But Jonathan Newman is, step by step, improving PA's system.

[herbacidal]

And to answer the thread title:

BYOBs for the most part will not charge corkage.

Establishments with liquor license more often than not will.

These statements apply to the Philly area of PA.

I have minimal experience with the rest of the state.

[KatieLoeb]

PA Liquor Laws.

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

Actually, in Pennsylvania, a "Liquor License" permits the "Licensee" (Bar or Restaurant) to:

- Purchase wine and liquor at a 6% discount (over the PLCB's own "retail" outlets aka "the State Store") for purchases totalling over $50.

- Re-sell said products at "retail" (presumably with a markup. Buying and reselling at "cost" would be directly competitive with the PLCB. It would also be a serious waste of time )

- Possibly (if the appropriate additional fee has been paid) perform Sunday Sales.

BYOB's DON'T possess a liquor license. Hence - BYO.

There is no prohibition against a restaurant that DOESN'T have a license GIVING AWAY wine or liquor - they just can't SELL it without the LICENSE to do so.

As for corkage fees, it is meant to discourage customers from BRINGING their own into a LICENSED establishment. Cost of a liquor license (at least in Philadelphia) is currently up to about $150K. Not to mention liability insurance. What if someone gets trashed in your restaurant on wine you didn't actually SELL them? Can you flag someone if you didn't sell them the offending spirits? What if they drive off and kill someone? I think it's all about the liability myself. Not to mention it really isn't cost effective to allow customers to bring in their own wine when it's a major source of revenue. However, lately there's been a trend toward allowing BYO in licensed establishments on traditionally SLOW nights, like Sunday-Wednesday. Even the venerable Georges Perrier's Le Mas is allowing it on Sundays. I suspect as the economy improves () we'll be seeing less and less of that.

I doubt that many restaurateurs would risk losing their license over allowing wine into their establishments if it were patently ILLEGAL. However, due to the PLCB (the 'C' stands for CONTROL) any wine consumed in a LICENSED establishment is presumed to be purchased through the "appropriate" (read: PLCB) channels. That's why a restaurateur could lose his license for say, driving over the bridge to NJ and buying the same products at a fairly significant price advantage and hauling them back in his SUV for delivery under cover of darkness through his kitchen door or loading dock. Now THAT'S a punishable offense. [rant] But that's also about the PLCB self-sustaining its very existence as well as the employment of hundreds of mid-level civil servants that have state jobs, all the benefits that are implied with that, and squelching the slightest whiff of competition or free enterprise within the boundaries of the Commonwealth. [/rant]

[Brad Ballinger]

I think there are 3-5 states that control all liquor and wine sold.

It's been a while since I've been in Utah, and maybe things ahve relaxed. Maybe. There are many bars (clubs) where you ring your own bottle in for set ups. I don't recall how beer and wine is handled.

New Hampshire is also a state with the state-run wine and spirits shops. Ohio controls spirits, but beer and wine can be purchased in the grocery store among other places.

With respect to Pennsylvania (well Philadelphia because my experience is limited to that city), there are BYO establishments that don't have licenses. I was at such a place (Gnocchi on Passyunk) and it was entertaining to see the variety of wines at the tables. Typically, I don't see white zinfandel, K-J chardonnay, etc., brought in by a patron who wishes to bring his or her own (the purpose of BYO in restaurants with licenses -- in other states where it is legal -- is to bring in a special bottle, the equivalent of which is hard to find on the restaurant's list). The people I know in Philly go to New Jersey or Delaware for their booze.

[mrbigjas]

So, I asked if I could get the bottle out of my car and use their so-so glassware.  Nothing doing, I was told.  It would jeopardize their license.  Allegedly, the owner of the restaurant could not even bring wine from home for his own use unless it had been supplied by the state under his license.  Is this for real?  I don't get it.  What's the point?

No, it's not for real, as this thread shows. (Look at the last post in the thread)

[hollywood]

PA Liquor Laws.

Don't. Get. Me. Started.

Good rant. And thanks for the info. It's no wonder so many of us Californians are in rehab (aside from using it as a place to network). We make it easy for folks to drink what they want when they want it.