Pinot Grigio and White Zin Free Zones

[Craig Camp]

Increasingly, I see a number of moderate to upper/moderate restaurants outsourcing their wine program to a distributor/retailer/consultant. My guess is that the restaurant feels they end up with a decent wine program but don't have the expense of actually having an employee do it. From an accounting perspective, I believe it turns fixed costs into variable costs.

Is this "outsourcing" or "abdicating"?

[sammy]

Increasingly, I see a number of moderate to upper/moderate restaurants outsourcing their wine program to a distributor/retailer/consultant. My guess is that the restaurant feels they end up with a decent wine program but don't have the expense of actually having an employee do it. From an accounting perspective, I believe it turns fixed costs into variable costs.

Is this "outsourcing" or "abdicating"?

It is both.

The restaurant puts a positive spin on it saying that a wine professional from an outside company is exposed to so many different wines on a regular basis and is better equipped to source appropriate wines at fair prices than the restaurant can do on it's own.

[bandregg]

I haven't formed my opinion on the main question yet, but I thought I'd relay a story that relates.

For my twenty-first birthday my parent took me (at my request) to a very fine dinner at the Eldridge Hotel in Lawrence. When asked if we would be having drinks before dinner I ordered a tanqueray dry maritini, up, olives, and indicated I'd be having wine with dinner. My mother ordered a glass of "zinfandel," and my father followed suit.

The drinks are served and my mother immediately stops the waiter and says, "This isn't zinfandel." Everyone kind of stopped in a moment of confusion and then the waiter and my mother exchanged a series of "Yes it is." "No it's not." She hadn't taken a sip yet. After a few back and forths, the answer to the confusion slowly dawned on me.

When my mother says "Zinfandel" she means "White Zinfandel." After I explained what had happened, and cajoled my mother into trying her wine everyone had a brief (very brief for the waiter) laugh. My mother said that she enjoyed the wine, but when asked if she wanted another glass with her meal she opted for the white zin. this time. My father drank his real zin and stayed with it through the meal, though he hasn't ever had it in the nine years since.

So, I guess what I'd say is that some people aren't wine people because they won't allow themselves to learn wines they enjoy (that's certainly my parents) so they stick with what they know then they think they're expected to drink wine. Either you carry wine they'll drink or you don't sell them wine.

[Boris_A]

So you can order a German or Austrian Pinot Grigio?

To confuse things even further, you might have to ask for Grauburgunder.

Well, sometimes it's also called Ruländer.

[bleachboy]

So you can order a German or Austrian Pinot Grigio?

To confuse things even further, you might have to ask for Grauburgunder.

Well, sometimes it's also called Ruländer.

I never knew any of this. Interesting info!

[KatieLoeb]

So you can order a German or Austrian Pinot Grigio?

To confuse things even further, you might have to ask for Grauburgunder.

Well, sometimes it's also called Ruländer.

It's Gräuburgunder when it's dry, like (most) Italian Pinot Grigio and Alsace or Oregon Pinot Gris so it's the only pseudonym I mentioned. You're quite correct, but the Ruländer name implies the same grape but a sweet wine. I can't imagine what this tastes like but I'd love to find out.

[robyn]

I often hear restaurant wine buyers exclaiming that they won't sell this or that (see the off-topic chat HERE) wine because they feel customers will simply buy these wines and ignore other good wines. For instance, should the restaurant make the choice not to carry a pinot grigio because unthinking consumers will just order it OR should they be taking the time to find a great pinot grigio so their customers can learn the difference?

Should a restaurant be a white zin and pinot grigio free zone or should they just find better examples of these wines?

I am not sure why you think Pinot Grigio or American wines like Pinot Gris made from the US grapes are lousy. Perhaps some of them are - but a lot aren't. And they don't - like most of the over oaky Chardonnays that are on restaurant menus these days - overpower the food you're eating. I - unlike a lot "wine people" - have a funny philosophy about stuff you drink with food (whether it's alcoholic or non). It should complement it - not dominate it.

I don't know much about zinfandels - but I wound up drinking a riesling which I wouldn't have ordered on my own (it was recommended by staff) at Alain Ducasse - and it was fabulous (at $130/bottle - it should have been fabulous).

I will reserve the more dominating wines to be drunk alone - or perhaps with a bit of fruit and cheese. And some really extraordinary wines - like some really big whites - should only be had on special occasions like when you're eating the best appetizer in the world in a 3 star restaurant in Paris. In more pedestrian circumstances - please tell me what's wrong with a King Estates Pinot Gris? Robyn

[Craig Camp]

I often hear restaurant wine buyers exclaiming that they won't sell this or that (see the off-topic chat HERE) wine because they feel customers will simply buy these wines and ignore other good wines. For instance, should the restaurant make the choice not to carry a pinot grigio because unthinking consumers will just order it OR should they be taking the time to find a great pinot grigio so their customers can learn the difference?

Should a restaurant be a white zin and pinot grigio free zone or should they just find better examples of these wines?

I am not sure why you think Pinot Grigio or American wines like Pinot Gris made from the US grapes are lousy. Perhaps some of them are - but a lot aren't. And they don't - like most of the over oaky Chardonnays that are on restaurant menus these days - overpower the food you're eating. I - unlike a lot "wine people" - have a funny philosophy about stuff you drink with food (whether it's alcoholic or non). It should complement it - not dominate it.

I don't know much about zinfandels - but I wound up drinking a riesling which I wouldn't have ordered on my own (it was recommended by staff) at Alain Ducasse - and it was fabulous (at $130/bottle - it should have been fabulous).

I will reserve the more dominating wines to be drunk alone - or perhaps with a bit of fruit and cheese. And some really extraordinary wines - like some really big whites - should only be had on special occasions like when you're eating the best appetizer in the world in a 3 star restaurant in Paris. In more pedestrian circumstances - please tell me what's wrong with a King Estates Pinot Gris? Robyn

Robyn,

I'm sorry but you seemed to have missed the thrust of this thread. No one is arguing that there are no good wines made from these grapes, but rather why restaurants choose to remove them from the list because there is too much demand for bland commercial examples like Santa Margharita Pinot Grigio. Demands for wines like Santa Margherita make it hard to sell excellent examples of other Pinot Grigio wines.

I glad you enjoyed the riesling at Ducasse, but the unappreciated riesling is the opposite of the over-commercialized wines we are discussing here. However congratulations for squeezing a mention of Ducasse into a Pinot Grigio/Whit Zin discussion. What brands does he pour?

[ctgm]

So you can order a German or Austrian Pinot Grigio?

Sammy, I think that you have hit the nail on the head. It seems a lot of people (in th UK anyway) who ask for Pinot Grigio just want the variety and have no interest what so ever in the producer. With attitudes like that why should any restaurant/bar really bother with a more expensive and better producer?

Your post about "editing for ignorance", was that aimed at me? All I said is that I liked French Pinot Gris/Pinot Grigio whatever you want to call it. You asked whether Pinot Grigio is only Italian. I suppose it is in name only but as it is a grape variety rather than a DOC....

It reminds me of a news item I once saw. There was an Australian producer going on and on about how wonderful his chardonnay was every year and that the Burgundians could not match him for consistency. Cue to a Burgundian who says in a very French way (surprise that!!) that he USES chardonnay to make a Puligny Montrachet (ie he doesn't make a Chardonnay)

[Mark Sommelier]

I often hear restaurant wine buyers exclaiming that they won't sell this or that (see the off-topic chat HERE) wine because they feel customers will simply buy these wines and ignore other good wines. For instance, should the restaurant make the choice not to carry a pinot grigio because unthinking consumers will just order it OR should they be taking the time to find a great pinot grigio so their customers can learn the difference?

Should a restaurant be a white zin and pinot grigio free zone or should they just find better examples of these wines?

I am not sure why you think Pinot Grigio or American wines like Pinot Gris made from the US grapes are lousy. Perhaps some of them are - but a lot aren't. And they don't - like most of the over oaky Chardonnays that are on restaurant menus these days - overpower the food you're eating. I - unlike a lot "wine people" - have a funny philosophy about stuff you drink with food (whether it's alcoholic or non). It should complement it - not dominate it.

I don't know much about zinfandels - but I wound up drinking a riesling which I wouldn't have ordered on my own (it was recommended by staff) at Alain Ducasse - and it was fabulous (at $130/bottle - it should have been fabulous).

I will reserve the more dominating wines to be drunk alone - or perhaps with a bit of fruit and cheese. And some really extraordinary wines - like some really big whites - should only be had on special occasions like when you're eating the best appetizer in the world in a 3 star restaurant in Paris. In more pedestrian circumstances - please tell me what's wrong with a King Estates Pinot Gris? Robyn

The by far most extravagant mark-ups in this country can be seen at Alain Ducasse in New York. Google it for the winelst.