Scarcity Factor

[Bux]

There is a weakness here on eGullet.com and an inability to stay on topic or even in the correct board. I sometimes feel I should recheck the Japan board to see what's being said about NYC restaurants. ;)

I had venison for my main course and again several days later at Leon de Lyon. I recall them being rather comparable dishes. Our companions, a British couple, had the lobster gratinée and said it was superb. She passed on the foie gras raviloe in favor of some greens, although her fish salad had more fish than salad. The salade was graced with a share of the truffle.

After dinner, Orsi's second in command made the rounds of the dining room. It's my understanding that he is taking over the restaurant, although perhaps not right away. He may also be rejuvenating the restaurant. It was our first visit. Orsi himself certainly didn't look ready for retirement. In his whites, he was more the image of an ascetic research scientist than a chef. I have my reservations about the decor of the restaurant which I suppose can be described as overwhelmingly feminine, or French. Mme. Orsi is as svelte as her husband and quite an elegant hostess, although she wears too much perfume for the hostess of a restaurant. I suspect she is responsible for the decor. Not my taste at all, but any subjectivity in the matter was more than overcome by their hospitality. I really enjoyed meeting Orsi and found him exceptionally gracious.

[robert brown]

I think you forgot to tell us when this all took place. When was it?

[Bux]

Sorry, I noted it was around the new year, but didn't say which year. It was just his past January that we visited Lyon. We spent New Year's Eve in the old harbor in Marseille. We skipped all sort of fancy dinners and just roamed the harbor which was set up with more than half dozen international bands and a good display of fireworks. We had a good lunch of bouillabaisse on December 31 and and a more elegant lunch on the first with the same couple we later dined with in Lyon.

[cabrales]

Quote: from Bux on 11:46 pm on Dec. 26, 2001

My "gastronomic racing luck" story:  . . . .  I was surprised by [Orsi's] hearty greeting of "It's the truffle man."

Bux -- In an attempt to stay more on topic :), I wanted to ask whether part of the memorable aspect of your Orsi/truffle experience might have been associated with the attention and care that Orsi's greeting and other actions demonstrated. Could part of your enjoyment have been based on the fact that a chef/restaurant's time and effort are scarce?

Bux's mention of a chef's making rounds in the dining room may also be interesting in connection with exclusivity/scarcity factors.  Have members noticed whether chefs allocate about the same amount of time to different tables, when they do tour the room?  If not, would conversation about, and interest in, food generally have more of an impact on the length of time spent at a given table, as opposed to other factors (such as the price of the food and wine consumed)?

On Robert's discussion on surprise from unexpected quarters, for me (only) "gastronomic racing luck" is almost invariably associated with special dishes or special attention from restaurant personnel.  Neighboring diners might be interesting to listen to or less so, and it might be wonderful to receive a sample of a product not yet massaged by a restaurant, but I am generally so focused on the food and the other aspects of the applicable restaurant that surprises on other fronts have a muted impact  :)

[=Mark]

Over the past 15 years we have visited many of the top shelf establishments in NYC and the DC areas.  I find the comments earlier on in this thread about Le Cirque to be interesting in that of all the places we tried that this was the only truly bad experience.  My brother and I have coined a phrase during our tours of the top restaurants, the "Rube Table."  This is the space where most establishments seat the folks who look as if they might create embarassment if allowed to be seen by the regulars.  These tables are the ones next to the wait station or restroom doors, adjacent to the kitchen doors or behind potted plants.  

When we arrive in our JC Penny suits we are sized up by the host/hostess and invariably packed off to the nearest rube table.  Usually within the next 10 or so minutes after conferring with the waitstaff and sommolier it is discovered that their judjement was somewhat hasty, and from that point  both we and the staff proceed to have an enjoyable meal.  If you show a real interest in what the chef is trying to do and show real interest in the opinions and advice of the servers you will almost always have a good experience.  We've gotten many free tasting items of dishes the kitchen was experimenting with as well as visits from several of the chefs.  

The one place this did not occur was at a lunch at Le Cirque (The _old_ one, mind you, have not been back since they reopened).  From the start we were sat at a tiny table in a corner, gruffly had our orders taken.  Halfway through our appetizers the entrees arrived (Keep in mind they were all on huge plates on a table about the size of a garbage can lid, little room for anything).  When done there seemed no way to get the attention of any servers so we could get a check, and they began cleaning around the table with a vacuum cleaner before we finally escaped.

I can remember most all of the memorable meals I've had at other establishments, but the service at Le Cirque was so stunningly bad that I cannot remember anything of what we ate.

I realize that the onus can not always be laid on the staff,  we've witnessed patrons who show up with a real attitude.  Sort of a "We know we're going to drop a bundle on this meal so everything better be perfect.  And We'll be watching..."  Sorry but when staff picks up on feelings like this it can be difficult to turn things around.  The best of a proffessional staff will gamely try to brighten the mood but it's not easy.  At Le Cirque they didn't even try.  It was clear that they could do with or without our patronage and expressed this feeling clearly.

Forums such as this one have begun to give voice to those who experience treatment such as this.  I was a member of a Food Forum at the time that was hosted by John Mariani, a sometime restaurant critic and food writer.  He apparently related our experiences to Siro Maccione who was upset to learn of our treatment.  There was mention of compensation at a future meal but shortly after this Siro returned to Europe for a couple months and none of it was followed up.  Oh well, guess we'll mark it up as lesson learned and continue our culinary commando raids on the City...

[cabrales]

Mark -- Thanks for providing your insights on Le Cirque :)

On dressing at restaurants, are you adhering to the utilization of your suits for principle-based reasons?  Otherwise, a one-time investment might be something worth consideration (not necessarily execution).  For men, one could argue that one only needs (theoretically) a single dark-colored suit (and, in the winter, some type of coat) for use at every restaurant, if one cared about initially avoiding the "Rube Table" you describe.  

(Edited by cabrales at 10:26 am on Dec. 28, 2001)

[Liza]

I think it takes more that a good suit to avoid the "rube table", as I posted previously.

[cabrales]

Liza -- Agreed.  In France, speaking French might also be helpful to avoiding that table, although I know that you are referring to other factors.

[robert brown]

Cabrales, you bring up two adjuncts of dining worth delving into. In general I do not like the ritual of chefs doing “la ronde” in the dining room. It is distracting and puts one into the position of trying to conjure up in a hurray what to say. First, you do not know if the chef is in the room to speak to everyone or, as you say, a special person or several selected people. I find myself hoping he will pass me by. Also you can see many people being made uncomfortable, with the result that they nod to the chef who then keeps right on going or being put in the position of muttering some sort of praise that may not be heartfelt (unless you’re like young Shaw who never tells it like it isn’t) Of course I don’t hide under the table or get up and go to the men’s room. By this time I can acquit myself since after a while you develop pat responses and remarks. Each great chef goes about it differently. I found Fredy Girardet to be the worst. He invariably came out and walked around in a perfunctory, really-could-not-care manner, speaking to everyone in this Imperial, condescending manner. The best I ever saw at working the room was Pierre Troisgros. He’s a jolly-looking fellow who really knows how to put you at your ease. Alain Chapel would march into the dining room with kind of a scowl on his face and not moving his upper body. He would walk straight over to whomever it was he needed or wanted to speak with, and then he would walk out with the same posture he came in with. The best interaction I ever saw was at the restaurant Guy Savoy first opened: a small former bistro on one of the avenues that leads into the Place de L’Etoile. It had about ten tables and was long and narrow. When he wasn’t in the kitchen, he stood behind a small counter at the front of the room where he was easily accessible and could watch everyone, even, as I recall, kibitzing with some of his clients. But what I find almost stomach-turning is a Division Two CIA chef doing the tour of his dining room. That’s really beyond patting oneself on the back.

As someone who approaches serious-restaurant going from a phenomenalistic, experiential, cross-cultural perspective, it doesn’t satisfy me to expend my sensory energies solely “on the food and other aspects of the applicable restaurant”. I imagine when I first started out eating seriously in France, this is what I did. At some point early on, however, what might be called the voyeuristic aspects of world-class eating began to play a significant part, especially in mediocre high-class establishments. Whenever possible I try to eavesdrop; I like trying to find out what wine other diners are drinking; nearly best of all we like weaving unsubstantiated  stories or fantasies about our neighbors-what they might do in life, where they are from, how savvy the might be as gastronomes, what kind of a relationship they may have. I could go on and on. Perhaps someone will start a thread about people’s extra-food experiences in restaurants. Anyway, it’s not something unusual: Ruth Reichl made her reputation by looking around while she ate. It is just that often memories such as what Bux experienced at Pierre Orsi or the time an irate diner at the table next to mine at Le Bernadin shoved a maitre d’hotel into another neighboring table because the shoved one asked the shover to let the next party take over the table are often the experiences that mark a restaurant visit especially when the meal is entirely forgettable.

(Edited by robert brown at 4:55 pm on Dec. 28, 2001)

[Bux]

I wanted to ask whether part of the memorable aspect of your Orsi/truffle experience might have been associated with the attention and care that Orsi's greeting and other actions demonstrated.

Of course. It was part of the pleasure of the day and of the trip, but it was apart from the sensory pleasure of the truffle. I would have like met Chef Orsi with, or without the truffle, as we had a mutual acquaintance who had already told him we were dining there.

Of course chefs who make the rounds after a meal will spend different amounts of time at different tables--or at least most will. It all depends on what he has to say, and what the diners have to say. A lot will also depend on the circumstances and how busy he is. Probably the most time I've ever spent talking to a chef after a meal was when I first met Daniel Boulud. The circumstances were right. We had just returned from a trip to France. We were with our daughter who is fluent in French and who was very interested in food. It was probably our third or fourth visit and it was still a relatively young restaurant. He was still getting to know his clientele. It was lunch.

[Bux]

Robert, I am neither for nor against a chef making rounds of the dining room. It some places it feels right, in others it doesn't. I certainly don't mind a chef making a beeline for someone else's table and ignoring mine and I'm happy to see the chef at my table if I know him. It adds to the social interaction. I agree wholeheartedly that it can appear a pompous gesture at times. At other times it can be one of the "extra-food experiences" one enjoys.

One of my favorite stories involves a young chef in St. Jean de Luz who is a friend of some people close to us. He came out and sat at our table. We spoke, mostly in English, about his time in New York and about the current state of restaurants in town. At some point a gentleman from across the room got up and approached the chef. He was an American making an extended stay in St. Jean. When he heard us speak English, he just had to get up and tell the chef how much he had enjoyed his dinner and how glad he was that he had run across the restaurant. Had the chef not come out to speak to us, he would never have received the compliment. I don't usually go out of my way to associate myself with American tourists abroad (or truthfully, to disassociate myself either) but I was pleased to find an American enthusiastic about food.

[Steve Plotnicki]

Bux - Your story about the truffle is the classic example of a chef rising to the occassion and accomodating his diners. And I don't think that you needed an introduction to Orsi for him to respond that way. I think if you phoned the restaurant and were able to communicate it properly they would have told you to bring it on in. And while I can't pinpoint with accuracy the number of chefs in NYC who would do the same thing, it's far less than in Europe. But I could see Daniel doing it if one had a way to get to him. David Bouley would do it too. I think even J-G would do it if he was there and you could get him to come to your table.

As for chefs visiting my table. For me it's a simple issue. If I loved the meal I want him to visit. And if I hated it I want him to stay away. The worst thing in the world is having a poor meal and having to have niceties with the chef about the food. My classic story is a meal we had at Georges Blanc that we found mediocre at best. We must have had too much wine because we were having a bad case of the giggles. All of a sudden he showed up in the dining room amd we were the first table he visited.  It took all of our composure not to tell him how bad we thought the boney ass piece if chicken he served was.  And to make it worse, he was a sincere guy who really seemed to care. It was really awkward and we laugh about it to this day.

(Edited by Steve Plotnicki at 1:47 pm on Dec. 29, 2001)

[Bux]

The worst thing in the world is having a poor meal and having to have niceties with the chef about the food.

Amen to that and all parallel situations in and out of restaurants.

if one had a way to get to him

As chefs become executives running major corporations they develop a staff trained to keep the public at bay just as other executives do. As they become so busy, even their staff cannot reach them at times.

[cabrales]

Quote: from robert brown on 4:49 pm on Dec. 28, 2001

Also you can see many people being made uncomfortable, with the result that they nod to the chef who then keeps right on going or being put in the position of muttering some sort of praise that may not be heartfelt (unless you’re like young Shaw who never tells it like it isn’t) . . . . By this time I can acquit myself since after a while you develop pat responses and remarks.

Robert -- I'm curious as to what your remarks generally have been for a chef who is doing "la ronde" in the dining room and who has offered an unsatisfactory meal :)  

When a chef approaches me under these circumstances, I generally neither say things to him that are untrue nor voice my mind.  I might comment on the quality of the produce, if it was indeed good (e.g., the freshness of the fish, the availability of a game item), or emphasize the appropriate utilization of a particular herb or spice.  I might also inquire into the history of a particularly well-known dish, if it was poor.

[cabrales]

Quote: from Steve Plotnicki on 8:50 am on Dec. 29, 2001

The worst thing in the world is having a poor meal and having to have niceties with the chef about the food. My classic story is a meal we had at Georges Blanc that we found mediocre at best. We must have had too much wine because we were having a bad case of the giggles. All of a sudden he showed up in the dining room amd we were the first table he visited.  It took all of our composure not to tell him how bad we thought the boney ass piece if chicken he served was.  And to make it worse, he was a sincere guy who really seemed to care. It was really awkward and we laugh about it to this day.

Steve -- I agree with you on Blanc.  For ease of reference, here is a December 26 post in the "Champagne" thread under "Wine and Beer" (in yet another example of posting under the wrong thread ;))

_________

At George Blanc's last week, I ran into a Ruinart Blanc de Blancs from 1979 that was not on the wine list and that was sold to me for 800 Francs.  It was sitting in a little corner of the winer cellar like it had always been intended for me.  The same evening, I also had the 1988 version from the wine list (less than 600 Francs).

Unfortunately, the food at Georges Blanc was disappointing and the service was poor.   This was also my assessment of the restaurant the prior time I had visited.  The Bresse chicken "G7" style (foie gras and roasted garlic sauce), which had been served at the G7 summit in Lyons in the late 1990s (?), was uneventful. The crepes Vonnasienne, essentially large blinis, accompanying the chicken were soggy.  But the wine list saved the evening, given my perverse tendencies towards Ruinart Blanc de Blancs  

________________

Below is further detail on the same meal.  A white bean and black truffle soup was good, but not something that would tend to display the capabilities (or lack thereof) of a chef.  The next dish was a 1/2 portion of frogs' legs, which were swimming in butter.  However, the quality of the meat of the frogs was excellent (better than that of frogs used by Loiseau to make his signature dish of frogs' legs with parsley jus (more like a puree) and garlic puree).  At Blanc, I had ordered venison, which arrived at the table in an unappetizing brown sauce and which tasted as though it had been subjected to copious amounts of meat tenderizer.  I could not even finish my first bite.  When the waiter later inquired about whether I liked the dish, I mustered the kindness to say that it was interesting.  He asked again, and I responded that the dish was different. (I should have indicated that it was different from acceptable cuisine.)  The G7 chicken described represented what I could scrounge from my dining companion's dish.

PS: We had the two bottles of Ruinart Blanc de Blancs (no pun intended) after the meal.  There were some other finds to be had on George Blanc's wine list.

(Edited by cabrales at 7:43 am on Jan. 2, 2002)

[Steve Plotnicki]

Carbrales - It just goes to show you that things do not change. The meal I had at Blanc was in 1985! It's like Paul Simon said, "Still mediocre after all these years. Ohhhhh, still mediocre." But in his defense, I have friends who used to swear by the place. And his cookbook is terrific. But I'm a sucker for a good wine list, especially on that is populated with old Burgundys.

[robert brown]

Cabrales, It's been a while since a chef in France who gave me a bad meal came to my table. But I believe the last time it happened, I simply nodded my head hello and he know not to stop. I find it best when a chef kind of hangs around in an adjoining room  making himself accessible and allowing you to decide how forthcoming you want to be.

[lizziee]

In the Oct. 7, 1998 article in the New York Times, Amanda Hesser describes who likes to get "off-menu" specials. Her thesis is that if you "treat the royalty royally, they will return time and again, adding ... glitz to the restaurant's ambiance."

There is an interesting quote from Michael Batterberry. "Today's special treatment in restaurants is rooted in practices of the past, when to bring in business, chefs would create and name dishes for a celebrity. Peach Melba, for instance was named for Nellie Melba, Chicken Tetrazzini for the Italian opera singer, Luisa Tetrazzini, tournedos Rossini for the Italian composer, Rossini and Pavlova for the dancer.

Lucca-Augen (Lucca-Eyes), a German dish of raw beef, caviar and oysters was named for the famed Opera singer, Pauline Lucca by the chef at Restaurant Kempinski. It is said that Pauline was "a beautiful woman, who not only had a golden throat, but must also have had eyes of shining brightness."

According to the Delmonico site, a number of dishes were named for their "good" customers. Mr. and Mrs. LeGrand Benedict were dining at Delmonico's, complained that the menu never changed  and wanted something new.  The chef obliged with "eggs on ham served on a muffin and covered with hollandaise" - Eggs Benedict.

"In the mid-1800's, shipping magnate Ben Wenberg asked Charles Ranhofer, chef at Delmonico's, to prepare a meal he had discovered in South America, chunks of lobster sautéed in butter and served in a sauce of cream and egg flavored with paprika and sherry. The meal was such a success that it was added to the Delmonico's menu as Lobster Wenberg. However, some time later, Wenberg consumed too much wine and got into a brawl. He was banished from Delmonico's forever and his name stricken from the menu. 'Wenberg' became Newburg.'"

According to the '21' Cookbook, "'21's menu always has been strongly influenced by the preferences of its owners and friends as well as its chefs. .... '21' Traditional Hunter Salad, still a popular appetizer at '21,' is named for tennis champion Francis Townsend Hunter..... (Further) '21' has always catered to its regular customers' special likes and dislikes. Retired businessman Jack Hausman, for example, has a single pretzel each day before lunch. Industrialist Jeff Silverman starts his lunch each day with an appetizer the busboys make from cottage cheese, '21' Sauce, Tabasco, and chopped chives, served on toast.....Neal Walsh (the man responsible for the green stripe down Fifth Avenue on St. Patrick's Day) invariably has an egg salad sandwich - with the crusts trimmed off - for his entree. Bermuda Socialite Hilda MacMartin always ordered beans and franks when she came for lunch. And she always got them."

[papachef]

Being a slave of the kitchen I can say that off menu specials, special requests etc are great in a flattering kind of way, however they can really throw a monkey wrench into the kitchen wheel. There are sometimes those who are super customers or you know are coming in advance that you can go to town for, however most chefs really do not appreciate special crap unless they have no customers.

[cabrales]

lizziee -- Other examples of dishes being named after well-known diners/events include:

(1) Current (pre-Ramsay) menu at The Connaught, London. It includes Consomme "Prince of Wales", Fillet of Angus beef "Aristolte Onasis", and Petit ouefs (eggs) de cailles "Arnold Bennett".

http://www.savoy-group.com/connaug....te.html

(2) Bocuse's Soupe aux Truffes V.G.E. (truffle soup in honor of former French President Valery Giscard d'Estaing)

http://forums.egullet.org/ikonboa....8;st=60

(relevant page in "Chef of the Century" thread under "General Forum")

(3) George Blanc's Bresse chicken dish that has G7 in its name, utilizing a foie gras-based sauce and named after a meeting of the G7 leaders.

(4) Le Gavroche in London is reported to omelette Rothschild (?) as a dessert. This stems from M Roux, senior's (of Waterside Inn, Bray) former cooking affiliation with Cecile of such family.

http://www.asiacuisine.com.sg/Nacws/1998/5/267/

(5) All-Star Cafe -- Certain menu items are noted to be favorites of certain sports star owner/affiliates.  

[macrosan]

...and of course they named a cheese after cabrales ...

...of course, of course ...

[cabrales]

Perhaps an egg or chicken dish, no?  

[lizziee]

Beef Stroganoff for Count Pavel Alexandrovich Stroganov

Beef Wellington for the Duke of Wellington for defeating Napoleon at Waterloo

Caesar Sald for Caesar Cardini

Chicken Marengo to commemorate Napoleon's victory over the Austro-Hunagarian army at the village of Marengo

Oysters Rockefeller

[Jinmyo]

Feh. This just reminds me of those delis that have stupid things like a Paul Anka Sandwich.

[lizziee]

Jinmyo,

But did Paul Anka eat there?

Feh would be to Mr. and Mrs. LeGrand Benedict who with bored, fixed expressions casually glance at the menu, look wearily at their favorite waiter, shrug carelessly, in an off-hand sort of manner and say, somewhat peevishly, "Is this all there is?"

So simple to have a dish named after you.