Prime Rib: When is Prime Prime?

Chad · November 21, 2003

A spinoff from another thread. What is "prime" beef. And is it worth paying for? Do we even know what we're buying?

(megaira @ Nov 20 2003, 02:22 PM)
THE MOST IMPORTANT thing in Prime Rib is obtaining a prime grade piece of meat or at least understanding that what you are likely purchasing is a 'good' or 'choice' grade of meat. I don't think that is complicated.

(budrichard @ Nov 20 2003, 11:07 AM)
Please clarify - are butchers hawking cheaper pieces of meat in place of "prime" and calling it "prime rib"? If I go into a butcher tomorrow and ask for "Prime Rib, will I get "choice" or "select" meat instead, despite what I asked for? I could understand perhaps if I walked in and said "I want a rib roast" without specifying, but, since the article is specifically centered on prime rib, it stands to reason the reader would ask for prime rib.

Then Chad sayeth:

Prime rib really is a misnomer. It should be called a standing rib roast. For some reason the name has become attached to this particular cut of roast despite there being no connection to the USDA grade.
The Professional Chef says "The term prime rib really has no specific meaning and should be avoided in menu copy. It is often a confusing term, as it may lead the customer to assume that the beef is graded prime."
But the topic of confusing names for cuts of meat, French versus American naming conventions and how to know where on the critter your steak came from would be a good one. Anyone want to start a new thread?

Then ExtraMSG said

"Prime rib" doesn't necessarily mean a prime cut of prime rib. The grade is different from the cut. This is one of the annoying cuts because it confuses.
There are three grades of beef: select, choice, and prime. This is a function of marbling.
The primal cuts, of which prime rib is a member, are the first cuts a butcher makes, I believe. The prime rib, then, would be the first rib cuts.

Megaira said

Ok, so you're saying that when someone asks for "prime rib" they're really asking for the specific cut. The article does include a blurb on the actual cut/number of ribs, where, why etc, and to ask for the "3 ribs from the loin" cut or something to that extent. I've tossed the book back up on the shelf already, but at any rate, that part should cover at least the cut, right?
Chad says:
...prime rib really is a misnomer. It should be called a standing rib roast. For some reason the name has become attached to this particular cut of roast despite there being no connection to the USDA grade.
Ok, so bud is correct & you can and should specify if you want prime grade beef for your prime rib?
She does alternate in the article between calling it a standing rib roast and prime rib. Not that it changes the lack of education offered regarding the grade not being connected to the name.
eta - Julia also does not mention this/that there is a difference, etc. So perhaps another thread is in order explaining these things...I'd find it edumacational.
Puts me in the mood for a turkey, it does.

By the way, the USDA recognizes eight gradations of meat:

- Commercial

- Utility

- Cutter

- Canner

- Standard

- Select

- Choice

- Prime

As Shirley Corriher says

The top grade of Prime is juicy, tender and flavorful and has a high degree of marbling. Choice has a little less marbling but still is of very high quality. If the marbling is light, the grade is Select. Standard grade has a high proportion of lean meat with very little fat and is dry unless cooked by moist methods

The rest are used for commercial, institutional, canned and "other" end products.

In our recent Q&A with Mr. Cutlets we discovered the prime crime, the degredation of "prime" beef over the last many years. Yet there are companies out there who are trying to preserve the best traditions of prime beef, Excel Corporation, a division of Cargill, being one. A disclaimer. Excel is a former client. I've spent a lot of time with them. I know their cattle tracking and grading processes. I know the kill floor. These people are serious about keeping prime prime.

So what is "prime" beef? What should it be? Is the "prime crime" eroding what we know about top quality beef?

Do we care?

Chad

ExtraMSG · November 21, 2003

I'd be interested to see some links to photos of prime vs choice vs select in the same cut. And if anyone could show the range that would be awesome. Or how it varies between cuts. I know I've seen photo comparisons of wagyu/kobe and prime before. I'll try to find those.

Edit: Some threads to look at:

Discussion of USDA Grading

Discussion of Certified Angus Prime

Discussion of Grass Fed vs Grain Fed Beef

Q&A with Mr Cutlets about Wagyu/Kobe

Short Q&A with Mr Cutlets about USDA Grading

Mr Cutlets on Choosing Prime Rib

Edited November 21, 2003 by ExtraMSG (log)

Chad · November 21, 2003

Attribution note: In my cut 'n' paste frenzy of last night I got the authors of the first two quotes wrong. The first should be budrichard, the second megaira. Sorry 'bout that.

So, is the "prime crime" true? Is the quality of meat degrading so that what is now prime would have once been labeled choice?

Chad

budrichard · November 21, 2003

Thanks for the quote clarification, I certainly didn't remember posting that!

Prime has been degraded at least two times over the years. You could accurately state that what used to be good grade is now generally sold as choice. To further complicate the matter, the industry recognises at least two grades of prime. The definition is really in the eyes of the beholder. There was good article on Lobels' grandaughter purchasing prime. I go to a small butcher shop in Willmette(email with kind words and i will tell you the name or search in Willmette), the owner buys prime and dry ages for 2.5 weeks. Very good beef and the best I can find in the midwest. Yesterday I purchased a 3" Porterhouse from him and we spent a few minutes looking at two Prime loins to determine from which to make the cut. One looked very good(no pun) and one was simply superior in terms of marbling. You can guess from which one comes the steak in my fridge at a cost of around $40US. Grasch'es in Milwaukee sells prime advertised as dry aged but not as good as my butcher and of course dry aging is subject to interpretation. The ultimate judge is you the taster. Some individuals do not like really dry aged beef.

To answer your question, yes!

In terms of qualitative tasting. We serve a full 'Standing Rib Roast' every Xmas. I have tried Prime grade from a number of vendors, one year I even had a choice grade organic from the Outpost Co-op in Milwaukee. The diners are never told where the roast comes from. The diners vote for the Prime from my butcher as the best, hands down. Of course this is not a side by side comparison but it is the same relatives! I can assure you that they WILL NOT go anywhere else for XMAS dinner.

In terms of Prime Rib, I have never heard of the term Prime cut interpreted as Prime Rib. To me a 'Prime Rib roast' is a roast that is Prime grade period. Why, because it makes all the difference in the quality of the roast which is the bottom line. A real Prime Rib roast compared to what you can purchase in the normal supermarket isa totally different animal(pun!). That is why the Cook's Ill article was so annoying. Individuals would go out and purchase any old rib roast and never know the enjoyment of real Prime. :biggrin: -Dick

Edited November 21, 2003 by budrichard (log)

ExtraMSG · November 21, 2003

In terms of Prime Rib, I have never heard of the term Prime cut interpreted as Prime Rib. To me a 'Prime Rib roast' is a roast that is Prime grade period. Why, because it makes all the difference in the quality of the roast which is the bottom line. A real Prime Rib roast compared to what you can purchase in the normal supermarket isa totally different animal(pun!). That is why the Cook's Ill article was so annoying. Individuals would go out and purchase any old rib roast and never know the enjoyment of real Prime. -Dick

a) 99.9% of prime rib out there is not prime grade, though, whether it's sold at a market, a butcher, or a restaurant.

b) Lots of people don't even have access to prime grade beef, and even if they do, it's outside the bounds of their pocketbooks.

Insisting that prime rib (or standing rib roast) be prime grade beef or nothing is just elitist, I think, and certainly not appropriate for a cookbook or magazine.

dano1 · November 21, 2003

FWIW "Prime Rib" is a generic marketing term now days as others have said. ExtraMSG said 99.9% of your Prime Rib sold as this is not and i can attest to that. It is just too much $$ for most houses to sell Prime and stay afloat. From what i remember USDA inspection is mandatory BUT grading is not-unless things have changed. If in doubt check the roll mark or lack thereof.

danny

Hest88 · November 21, 2003

I really think of "prime rib" and "prime beef" as two separate things. When I order a prime rib I think of it more as a certain style of food. It would be *nice* if prime rib also meant a prime cut of beef, but I rarely expect it.

mnebergall · November 21, 2003

I see various grocery stores in my area (DC) such as Safeway and Harris Teeter marketing beef under what appear to be proprietary names such as "Harris Teeter Rancher" and at Safeway "Ranchers Reserve." Giant seems to have dropped their proprietary designation and now seems to market only "USDA Choice" beef. I wonder what USDA grade the others are selling? My guess is USDA Select even though the marketing hype wants you to think that they are selling something better than choice when what they are selling is probably something inferior. If this is correct, it would seem that Giant is the place to shop.

budrichard · November 21, 2003

I give up! Call it 'Prime Rib' or whatever you want to call it but don't call me for dinner! :angry: -Dick

Nick · November 22, 2003

I give up! Call it 'Prime Rib' or whatever you want to call it but don't call me for dinner! -Dick

Call them diver scallops or whatever you want, but don't expect me to shuck 'em. :smile:

wesza · November 22, 2003

Please consider the long before any type of Beef Grading was introduced to the Marketplace. There was being commonly used for the Roast made from the Beef Forequarter by the Butcher after the deckle or top flap seperated, rib bones cut short, chine bones removed, dressed and trimmed. This was called the Prime Rib Roast, meaning a Dressed and Trimmed Standing Rib, ready for roasting, carving and serving to diners.

To the best of my knowledge this is the only cut of beef marketed as a Prime Rib Roast. The Steak Cuts are generally called Spencer, Delmonico or Rib Eye.

There are very few places that actually serve a Prime Grade Prime Rib anything, as in most circumstances the real prime grade rib cuts are more often made into steaks where they are prepared to order at a higher price per unit.

Since the Whole Rib as a piece ages either dry or in cryovac so well, it's very acceptable as a superior roast. I personally have enjoyed excellent dry aged ungraded Grass Fed Cow Ribs that have had better, taste, flavor or character then the finest choice grades that were so tender, juicy and delicious that there were better the Japanese Kobe hand finished.

Irwin

Edited November 22, 2003 by wesza (log)

budrichard · November 22, 2003

BTW What do you think you are eating in a restaurant today if you order 'Prime Rib'? In most cases unless you actually see the server/chef cutting your slice of 'Prime Rib' off an actual roast, it is from a cryovac package which is just reheated.

'Standing Rib Roast' is the correct term for a rib roast that is not prime. Your butcher will still give you a 'Standing Rib Roast' if you ask for 'Prme Rib Roast' because the two terms have become synonomus today. I am simply pointing out that this interchange of terms has led individuals to NOT being able to know and expereince what a real 'Prime Rib Roast' is. :biggrin: -Dick

ExtraMSG · November 22, 2003

budrichard, I'd be interested to have you call a butcher on this, or two, and find out for yourself. "Correct terms" only means how people use it, ie, how it's labeled when it's sold, how butchers use it, how restaurants sell it, how it's understood. I believe wesza has given you the correct etymology of "prime rib". You may consider prime rib that's not graded prime not worth eating. Whatever. I don't really care what you eat. But I think you're wrong in your understanding of what the term "prime rib" denotes.

wesza · November 22, 2003

BTW What do you think you are eating in a restaurant today if you order 'Prime Rib'? In most cases unless you actually see the server/chef cutting your slice of 'Prime Rib' off an actual roast, it is from a cryovac package which is just reheated.
'Standing Rib Roast' is the correct term for a rib roast that is not prime. Your butcher will still give you a 'Standing Rib Roast' if you ask for 'Prme Rib Roast' because the two terms have become synonomus today. I am simply pointing out that this interchange of terms has led individuals to NOT being able to know and expereince what a real 'Prime Rib Roast' is. -Dick

budrichard: A pre-cooked packaged Rib Roast wasn't what I mentioned. The "Rib Roast", dressed as a primal cut was my concern, either dry aged or cryovaced.

Any dressed prepared for roasting Rib Roast, unless you purchase the entire primal cut directly from the supplier, or actually observe your butcher break down the Rib, removing the exterior fat cover that is the only place where the meat will have been rolled with the USDA Prime inprint on it's surface will you actually be able to assertain that the Rib is actually prime.

I've never seen any Rib Roasted without the inked grading exterior surface being trimmed away or removed, especially in any standing rib roast with the deckle being removed. The Inked surface is unappetizing, plus the amount of fat cover is much more then any chef would be comfortable with, especially with prime, even a 4/5 in leaness.

The only way that you can be assured that your portion controlled or dressed prime beef is actually cut from Prime Grades is upon ordering your product only thru a letter of credit, that you are willing to pay the extra charges for a USDA Meat Inspector to sign off and verify that he observed the entire process. Since this is extremley expensive it's almost never done. This is why if you insist upon Prime Cuts you'll have to buy them in the Primal state or from a Butcher who will show you the grade stamp on the meat before custom cutting your selection.

The only time that I am satisfied about Prime is when i've actually purchased a whole primal piece and do my own butchering. With Boxed Beef there are certain cuts that aren't graded for Prime, such as Flanks or Filets. The only way of getting any of these cuts actually prime is if you've purchased the whole short loin, such as places like Peter Lugers or Lobels.

Irwin

guajolote · November 22, 2003

Look at this prime grade prime rib that Klink & Matthew smoked for us a month ago.

My butcher gets his beef from excel, which chad mentioned.

This image betrays how beautifully red it was.

Edited November 22, 2003 by guajolote (log)

ronnie_suburban · November 22, 2003

The Inked surface is unappetizing...

*tangent alert*

Irwin, you may already know this but in many cases the ink is actually black raspberry juice concentrate which has the highest color density of any juice concentrate and is also Kosher (pareve).

=R=

wesza · November 22, 2003

Look at this prime grade prime rib that Klink & Matthew smoked for us a month ago.
My butcher gets his beef from excel, which chad mentioned.
This image betrays how beautifully red it was.

Just received in the mail a advertisement from the Excel Beef's Company's, part of"Cargil", "Sterling Silver Brands" that offers the top of the line Excel Products for purchase. Again they don't guarentee Prime only claiming that they offer products of Choice "AAA", and Prime. Just marketing as "AAA" is questionable. Choice grades for Quality, and 1 to 5 grades for yield, same goes for Prime would be more appropiate. 21 days aging, not mention dry or cryovac.

Most interesting product offered at $10.00 per pound in pre-cooked Sterling Silver Boneless "PRIME RIB" Roast in 2 sizes 7 pounds and 13/15 pounds.

All the other prices were very expensive, higher then Whole Foods or any Seattle specialty market or butcher. I've got sticker shock.

Excel also are major suppliers for pet food products if your interested.

Irwin

robyn · November 22, 2003

I see various grocery stores in my area (DC) such as Safeway and Harris Teeter marketing beef under what appear to be proprietary names such as "Harris Teeter Rancher" and at Safeway "Ranchers Reserve." Giant seems to have dropped their proprietary designation and now seems to market only "USDA Choice" beef. I wonder what USDA grade the others are selling? My guess is USDA Select even though the marketing hype wants you to think that they are selling something better than choice when what they are selling is probably something inferior. If this is correct, it would seem that Giant is the place to shop.

I don't eat beef very often so I am far from an expert. Most of the time I eat beef - I eat rib eyes bought on sale at Harris Teeter under the Harris Teeter Rancher "brand name". Up until recently - the sale price was usually about $3.79/pound and the steaks looked and tasted terrific on the grill. The sale price is up to about $6/pound recently and the steaks don't look as good as they used to (so I haven't bought any). I would have guessed that I was getting "choice" before - but - these days - I wouldn't be sure. Robyn

robyn · November 23, 2003

<<Just received in the mail a advertisement from the Excel Beef's Company's, part of"Cargil", "Sterling Silver Brands" that offers the top of the line Excel Products for purchase. Again they don't guarentee Prime only claiming that they offer products of Choice "AAA", and Prime. Just marketing as "AAA" is questionable. Choice grades for Quality, and 1 to 5 grades for yield, same goes for Prime would be more appropiate. 21 days aging, not mention dry or cryovac.

Most interesting product offered at $10.00 per pound in pre-cooked Sterling Silver Boneless "PRIME RIB" Roast in 2 sizes 7 pounds and 13/15 pounds.

All the other prices were very expensive, higher then Whole Foods or any Seattle specialty market or butcher. I've got sticker shock.>>

They're expensive because they probably pay a lot for those full page ads in the Wine Spectator (I'd never head of Sterling Silver brands until I looked it up after reading one of those ads). Robyn

Chad · November 23, 2003

Ahem. As I mentioned before, Excel -- specifically "Sterling Silver" brand beef -- was once one of my clients. I know these folks. I know how they buy their beef, paying premiums for high marbling and overall quality, tracking generations of cattle, encouraging cattlemen to raise livestock to meet much higher expectations than other beef purchaser require. They're fanatics about quality for the Sterling Silver line. Prime really is prime.

They may say dry aging for 21 days, but internally that's a bare minimum. They usually go 30 or more. What they call prime or AAA is, in fact, some of the better beef out there. Is it better than Luger? Probably not. But it is prime and is significantly better than anything else you can buy in grocery stores. Their lawyers, as far as I can tell, make them hedge their bets and call it "prime or AAA" rather than strictly prime.

Sorry for the commercial, but the Sterling Silver line is good stuff.

Chad

jat · November 23, 2003

I had prime rib tonight and it was very tender, I got "prime" prime rib.

I'm not sure if there is a better method, I'm looking for advice. I got a

convection oven this week, is also has a broiler. So I broiled it first for a sear,

then one hour with the convection oven at 350. Could I go at a lower

temperature for longer? I plan on many roasts and want to get the best

maximum results possible and it's my first convection oven. Thank you.

budrichard · November 23, 2003

I had prime rib tonight and it was very tender, I got "prime" prime rib.
I'm not sure if there is a better method, I'm looking for advice. I got a
convection oven this week, is also has a broiler. So I broiled it first for a sear,
then one hour with the convection oven at 350. Could I go at a lower
temperature for longer? I plan on many roasts and want to get the best
maximum results possible and it's my first convection oven. Thank you.

Probably the most important thing about cooking is to cook for a specified internal temperature then resting for 20 minutes to an hour depending on the size of your rib roast. We cook for an internal temp of about 100f to 110F and then let a whole rib roast stand for about 1 hour covered with foil or in a warm oven. The well done or medium people get the ends, the rare people the center. -Dick

budrichard · November 23, 2003

Just looked at the Cargill site http://www.sterlingsilvermeats.com/excel/index.jsp and they only sell 'Pre-cooked' Rib Roasts. -Dick

Edited November 23, 2003 by budrichard (log)

woodburner · November 23, 2003

I had prime rib tonight and it was very tender, I got "prime" prime rib.
I'm not sure if there is a better method, I'm looking for advice. I got a
convection oven this week, is also has a broiler. So I broiled it first for a sear,
then one hour with the convection oven at 350. Could I go at a lower
temperature for longer? I plan on many roasts and want to get the best
maximum results possible and it's my first convection oven. Thank you.

Concerning searing first and then cooking in a reduced temperature oven, I can offer this a suggestion.

Alton Brown, taught me to sear rib roasts at the end of the cooking cycle.

I enjoy rib roasts cooked at around 225ºF until they reach about 100ºF internal temperature, remove from the oven, and allow the meat to equalize, while your oven or cooking unit heats up to 500º.

Put the roast back in the oven, and sear, being most attentive to the internal temperature as your final guide.

woodburner

jat · November 23, 2003

:biggrin: Wood and Bud, thanks for great advice, I wanted lower temp.

Let me know when you can join! :raz:

Sign In

Prime Rib: When is Prime Prime?

Recommended Posts

Similar Content

Recently Browsing 0 members