Charlie Trotter's

[Bux]

Welcome to eGullet Adam, and thanks for such a terrific second post.  I haven't seen 24 for, um, awhile but I do remember feeling very intimidated at your age when I made my first forays into the fine dining scene.  You captured it perfectly, and you are very, very funny.

I've yet to eat at Trotter's but many Chicago eGulls have, and I've rearely heard a discouraging word about the quality of the food. Craig, Bux and Andy have all given excellent advice, but I sympathize with you.  It stinks to spend that much money and not feel 1)excited 2)full!

But please.....take the El!

On the other hand, maybe Adam has my envy, not sympathy. At 24 I never expected to eat at places like that. Good food came later and a little money even later than that.

[Lady T]

No blame or shame to you at all for practicing restraint with alcohol -- much the contrary! -- but it sounds to me as if you only heard half the symphony, so to speak.

One of the wisest and best (and for me, most fun) things to do when confronted by a wine list like the one at CT's -- if you feel so inclined -- is to cast your fate into the hands of the sommelier and let him/her do by-the-course wine pairings for you. Good sommeliers are wizards at keeping the budget under control, too -- all you need to do is to tell them where your limits are. Remember, the wine department has already consulted with the kitchen long since, and chosen wines that can turn fine food into memorable revelations of taste. All the better for your experience, if you can turn 'em loose and let them transfigure the night for you.

Think of it another way, maybe: in terms of culinary education -- and who ever has enough of that, hmm? -- you just spent an evening at Oxford with one of the most demanding, idiosyncratic, unorthodox masters on the planet. The Trotter thang isn't always easy to "get", not even for seasoned restaurant-goers.

The metaphor can be followed one more step, though. I'd urge you to go back in a year or two -- and this time, grab that expensive opportunity with both hands and learn everything you can. Pelt the server, and the assistants, and the sommeliers, and everybody else on the premises with friendly questions. Start conversations about why the flavors are combined the way they are. Ask about your server's favorite restaurants (at the very least, you might get some neat pointers about possible locations for your next splurge. Or less pricey possible locations that won't require a splurge.). It's true at Trotter's, and at other top-flight places as well, that the more open and interested and receptive you are to the experience, the more you'll get out of it. The odds are that they'll like it that you want to learn some of what they know (and in the specific case of CT's, their expertise is in fact massive). They want you to have a superb evening, after all.

Keep going out. Keep comparing foodstuffs and wines, and thinking, and trying some more. There's never an end to the fun, or the learning either.

[budrichard]

Being a person NOT intimidated by ANY wine list, sommelair, waiter or chef and certainly not worried about the cost of a meal anywhere, it was with great anticipation when I booked 'THE TABLE' (kitchen for four) at Trotter's. The wait was 9 months for us Cheeseheads from Wisconsin!

We started with a bottle of champange in the bar as we invariably do at a restaurant of this caliber and moved to the kitchen with a couple of more bottles of something or other.

Charlie was not in attendance, having better things to do(opening his now defunt Las Vegas restauraunt).

Gulermo(sp?) was our chef and probably came from the Mexican town that Bourdain always talks about. The staff served us with canned patter which was reproduced word for word in a Chicago review of the same restaurant. I had hoped to learn a thing or two from the experience in the kitchen but what I learned was that Charlie's technique of little servings of esoteric combinations allowed the staff to almost completely perpare everything before hand to account for portion control.

I certainly was not impressed by ANYTHING we ate(Cucumber soup turned out to be a little smear of a cucumber based cream on the bottom of a bowl).

Anyway, I won't bore you with the 13 courses(somewhere we have the menus which they gave to us)., signed the bill and out the door and happily back to Wisconsin.

Note: We don't dislike Chicago, I have worked in the LOOP and have maintained Lyric Opera season tickets in the Dress Circle for over 20 years. It's just that things are so much nicer in Cheesehead Land.

To me, Charlie's was not great food nor grand dining. It is theater developed by a very inventive hard working person. It's effect is to intimidate all but a few. I certainly applaud the poster on his courage for telling it like it was for him.

That experience and that of others of it's type caused me to make the following resolutions.

1. Never to eat in an establishment where the chef was not in attendance.

2. When the chef becomes famous and has a TV program, move on.

3. Eat at ethnic restaurants where we are the only non-ethnic people in attendance.

Will be having lunch tommorrow at noon at Lovells' in Lake Forest for those that would like to continue this discussion. Hopefully Jim's son will be in attendance!-Dick

[Cusina]

So, I'm 33, not 24, but I can empathize with your post (which I enjoyed very much, thank you). My husband and I had a similar dinner a while back (at Tru rather than CT), including the strangely amusing escort to the bathroom. I think alot of what you described made me feel out of my element too, especially at first, but then the wine steward, who was also youngish, very graciously made us laugh a bit and we felt much more comfortable. His selections for us were incredible too. AND we started asking questions about the food and it's presentation as was suggested above. That did seem to break the ice even more and very shortly we were not only enjoying our meal tremendously but learning alot in the process.

So, don't give up. Since that meal, we have been to a few other wonderful fine cuisine restraunts and enjoyed them tremendously. It is a lot of fun for us now. I have yet to get to Charlie's, though. Definitely on my list of places to go before I expire.

[Coop]

When did it become the diners job to try and accomadate the staff. They should be trying to make the $350.00 customer as comfortable as possible. So they don't want wine, perhaps they are driving or Jehovah Witness' it's none of the wine stewards business. Not wanting wine doesn't make Alex and Adam unable to enjoy great food. I too enjoy a more bustling restaurant, that doesn't mean I'm uncivilized. well perhaps it does. I hope I never become as evolved as those who have dissed Adam for not being prepared for the CT experience.

[GordonCooks]

1. Never to eat in an establishment where the chef was not in attendance.

2. When the chef becomes famous and has a TV program, move on.

3. Eat at ethnic restaurants where we are the only non-ethnic people in attendance.

My philosophy for high end restaurants is that it's an experience first and sustenance second. I think this is turning into apples & oranges.

1.) Do you think that many of these Chefs actually work the line ?

2.) How did these guys achieve their notoriety ?

3.) Do you know how hard it is to find a French restaurant full of French people ? How about Italian ?

[D. Peckham]

Basically I think this is not as big of a subject or situation that people are making this out to be . Read Adam's first line of his post, he says he is an aspiring gourmet. Then why if you had read and seen on TV and online the type of restaurant that Charlie Trotters is, decide not to at least inquire about wine selections with the courses served. In my mind you are limiting yourself and the staff at this restaurant from achiving the expierence that they are there to obtain. Not everyone is fully prepared to dine at a restaurant like this, not once has anyone mentioned that dining there is a total expierence . Not just the food but the food, wine service and the environment. If I was going to dine there and granted $350 I wouldn't at all limit the staff from doing what there famous for WINE and food. Everyone is missing one more thing, it is after all just food, I bet everything on the plate was seasoned, cooked to temp and tasted like it should. It should for $350 but you have to pay for the expierence as well and I'm sure that this is true in this case.

[jbraynolds]

Dining at a place like Trotter's if you're not in the mood for the routine or, I don't mean to sound snobbish (no intent!), if you've not had much experience with this type of food/service/atmosphere is a bit akin to, as I think Adam pointed out, trying to wade through Ulysses before To Kill A Mockingbird. I like music metaphors: it's like trying to get into Miles Davis' stuff from the late-60s before easing up to it from his early-50s work. Or Coltrane (inside Trotter's joke). My first dinner at Trotter's was in 1994 and followed about five years of occasional visits to Michelin-starred places in France as well as upper-end places in D.C., Boston and NYC. I'd seen much more stilted service, more contrived dishes and church-like atmospheres by then than I care to remember...Trotter's was far from the worst offender. But, big but here, I was measuring it against a host of other, similarly Grand Experience places. I've taken non-food people there and their usual reaction is "what a poseur joint". Food/restaurant freaks are, usually but not always, quite impressed (and most of us know that food/restaurant freaks love to find and point out faults). Trotter's is not for everyone but anybody who's comfortable with the routine at Daniel, Patina, The French Laundry, Le Bernardin, Tru, Tribute, Seeger's, etc. owes themselves a visit. The times I've been there when it's on (both food and service) are some of the best meals of my life.

[marcus]

Adam, you've been presented with a lot of condescending stuff and gratuitous advice here, and admittedly your inexperience led to some discomfort, but the bottom line is your palate, which you should trust. I have eaten at Trotter's twice over the years and disliked it both times because of the food. I don't find it comparable to the best restaurants in New York, let alone Paris. In particular, for someone who makes such a big deal regarding the sourcing of his ingredients, the actual preparations are perfunctory, often overcooked and with a lack of the extraction of natural flavor that I associate with fine preparation. The dishes themselves are more like one note etudes, rather than fully realized creations. So do understand that there are a variety of opinions regarding this restaurant, and that you inexperience is not the issue.

[jbraynolds]

I'm not sure if my post is included by Marcus as one that is condescending or gratuitous but maybe some clarification is in order. Trotter's is not going to appeal to everyone, especially, I think, someone who views themself as an "aspiring" gourmand. Saying that one should walk before they run (Adam's own point) is not condescension. It's not elitism. It's simply stating that many tastes (like, say, dining at a place such as Trotter's) are acquired. Or maybe they aren't. I don't expect my 7-year old to like a medium-rare steak now, or a soft-boiled egg, or a scoop of Epoisses, or espresso, or etc. Maybe she never will. Expectations are personal things and when they're not met, I think that it's fair to try to find out how such expectations were hatched and what to what the object of disappointment is being measured. Finally, at the risk of sounding even more elitist (I'm sure that no matter how I phrase all of this, that's how it'll be taken by some), dining at Trotter's without wine diminishes the experience. And, no, I don't mean getting loaded. They put a lot of work and thought into it, to good effect.

[adrober]

This is very exciting: I feel like the much sought-after child in a heated culinary custody dispute. Caper vs. Caper?

I should probably mention here that Charlie Trotter's was in no way my first foray into the world of fine dining. In Atlanta, I've eaten with my parents at Seeger's and Bacchanalia; in New York, there was Babbo and Balthazaar and others I can't remember; I've been to Paris and eaten in the Eiffel Tower restaruant, Jules Verne (is that touristy or admirable?). In any case, I know what fine dining should feel like and was not a completely unrefined Eliza Doolittle.

With that said, this WAS my first independent effort to finely dine, with my own money, and with a good friend at a place as esteemed as Charlie Trotter's. And compared to all my other experiences before my Age of Independence, it simply didn't measure up.

I think part of this is cultural. Without wanting to perpetuate stereotypes, Jewish people (myself included) like value. If you took my grandmother to Charlie Trotter's, and she stared down at that vast white plate sprinkled with two or three mushrooms and a thin line of green sauce, her head would rotate 360 degrees and she'd have Charlie's head on a platter. It's a complete affront to our sensibilities.

This is why, I think, ethnic cooking is more robust. Flipping through my copy of Judith Nathan's "Jewish Cooking In America" you see recipes for 12, with lots of shmaltz (chicken fat), seasonings and flavors. Jewish people, like other minority groups, know what it's like to live without, so when they are able to live with the finer things they want value. I think there's merit to that.

Beyond that, though, I don't think a great meal requires an intellectual leap from tongue to brain. If it tastes good it tastes good: and there is value in even the smallest portion if its the best thing you have ever eaten.

And, just to clarify, I knew the meal would cost a lot of money. The shock was of the cinematic variety: imagine me at my table holding the check and then a flashback montage of all the food we ate and how small and unimpressive it all was and then cut back to me staring up at the camera as it pulls away, yelling "Nooooooo!" while dramatic music plays. FADE TO BLACK.

[marcus]

dining at Trotter's without wine diminishes the experience

I absolutely agree with this point, we had a really excellent 1989 Pichon Baron at a fair price the last time I ate at Trotters and it made a big difference. That is, a fine wine with mediocre food averages out to a much better meal than the food alone without the wine.

More seriously, children's tastes shouldn't be used in this kind of comparison. I believe that it is fairly well accepted that pre-teens really do taste things differently, and so have different preferences than adults and that this is physiologic rather than education and experience based.

[Bux]

This is very exciting: I feel like the much sought-after child in a heated culinary custody dispute. 

A misspent youth is one in which you've wasted your fifteen minutes of Wharholian fame on eGullet.

I should probably mention here that Charlie Trotter's was in no way my first foray into the world of fine dining.  In Atlanta, I've eaten with my parents at Seeger's and Bacchanalia; in New York, there was Babbo and Balthazaar and others I can't remember; I've been to Paris and eaten in the Eiffel Tower restaruant, Jules Verne (is that touristy or admirable?).

I've never been to Atlanta and as a consequence, can't say much about either example there. Balthazar in NY, is far removed from haute cuisine and fine dining that I'm once more suggesting you have a lot to learn about restaurants. Don't get me wrong. the chefs at Baltazar are close friends of my daughter's and I like and respect then very much. Moreover I like the restaurant and dine there with some regularity, but it's not meant to be anything like what Daniel or Charlie Trotter is. It's bistro/brasserie food, raw oysters represent one of the strengths of the kitchen. It's not labor intensive food and it's not meant to be creative food. Babbo is something else altogether and neither CT nor Balathazar. I don't know Jules Verne either. It's supposed to have good food, but it just doesn't get mentioned by people I know, nor by people I don't know who write about food.

My father would not have liked CT. He would not have liked Daniel. In fact, it was a great disappointment to me that he never appreciated fine restaurants, although he often liked good food. It was just something we couldn't share and as he left me with some money to have a few really fine meals, I'd have preferred to have had half as many, but to have had them with him. Whether my parents lack of appreciation for haute cuisine was genetic or cultural, it didn't get passed on to me.

[Bux]

I believe that it is fairly well accepted that pre-teens really do taste things differently, and so have different preferences than adults and that this is physiologic rather than education and experience based.

Having traveled with my daughter to France for the first time when she was twelve, I'd dispute that. I was astounded at her reactions. She would make or take no excuses for a dismal meal at a GM moderately well rated restaurant and able to deconstruct food at Troisgros and local traiteurs/epiceries, although I think she took to goat cheeses at a later age. At any rate, she gobbled up food I would have rejected at her age and was as discerning as I was, if not moreso.

Needless to say, she got to eat better food at an earlier age than I did.

[jbraynolds]

Bacchanalia is, in my opinion, one of the very best restaurants in America. Hope you liked it as much as I have. They make a crab fritter that seems to be lighter than air...the best "crab cake" I've ever had, anywhere, and that includes 8 years in the Baltimore/Annapolis/D.C. corridor and marriage to a native coastal Marylander (can't say Baltimoron). Was at Bacchanalia two weeks ago and can't say enough good things about it. THAT is a great restaurant if you're on the trail of fine dining in America.

[Busboy]

I should probably mention here that Charlie Trotter's was in no way my first foray into the world of fine dining.  In Atlanta, I've eaten with my parents at Seeger's and Bacchanalia; in New York, there was Babbo and Balthazaar and others I can't remember; I've been to Paris and eaten in the Eiffel Tower restaruant, Jules Verne (is that touristy or admirable?).  In any case, I know what fine dining should feel like and was not a completely unrefined Eliza Doolittle.

I expect that you're next CT-level dining experience, if you go back, will be better if only because you've now experienced that level of formaility and sophistication. As others have pointed out, Babbo and Balthazaar are pretty wide-open, and my experience in Atlanta is that even fine restaurants are relatively less formal than in other parts of the country.

The funny thing is that while most waiters will, out of habit, make immediate snap judgements about every aspect of you attire and behavior, all but the most egregious negatives are immediately trumped by friendliness, a general comfort with your surrounings, and basic knowledge of what to (or what to ask advice on).

So next time, you won't be wondering if the maitre d' is giving you the hairy eyeball, you won't care as much. You'll know the routine, so instead of thinking "is this what I should do" you'll be able to move into "is this what I want to do." You'll relax, your waiter will loosen up (somewhat) and you'll be able to focus on the food and/or wine.

[mags]

I suppose I anticipated that the bill might break the $300 mark even though Alex's meal was $100 and mine was $125.  The shock probably had more to do with frustration than genuine surprise.

$125 for bellinis, water, Ame, coffee (?) and service. I'd be shocked.

Ooops, sorry, Andy. You already retracted.

Edited November 6, 2003 by mags (log)

[mags]

I think part of this is cultural.  Without wanting to perpetuate stereotypes, Jewish people (myself included) like value.  If you took my grandmother to Charlie Trotter's, and she stared down at that vast white plate sprinkled with two or three mushrooms and a thin line of green sauce, her head would rotate 360 degrees and she'd have Charlie's head on a platter.  It's a complete affront to our sensibilities.

This is why, I think, ethnic cooking is more robust.  Flipping through my copy of Judith Nathan's "Jewish Cooking In America" you see recipes for 12, with lots of shmaltz (chicken fat), seasonings and flavors.  Jewish people, like other minority groups, know what it's like to live without, so when they are able to live with the finer things they want value.  I think there's merit to that.

Beyond that, though, I don't think a great meal requires an intellectual leap from tongue to brain.  If it tastes good it tastes good: and there is value in even the smallest portion if its the best thing you have ever eaten. 

And, just to clarify, I knew the meal would cost a lot of money.  The shock was of the cinematic variety: imagine me at my table holding the check and then a flashback montage of all the food we ate and how small and unimpressive it all was and then cut back to me staring up at the camera as it pulls away, yelling "Nooooooo!" while dramatic music plays.  FADE TO BLACK.

Adam, with all due respect, I think you ARE perpetuating stereotypes here. The biggest value-hound (uhhh......we called it a "cheapskate") I've ever known was my ex-boss, a good Irish Catholic boy, who was happy to splash out on booze but once ordered a single pizza for a staff of 15. And one of the happiest big spenders I know -- at least on food -- is my father, who's Jewish to the core.

I think what you're talking about are people whose childhoods -- or, at least, whose parents' childhoods -- were marked by deprivation. That's not at all an experience confined to Jewish culture. In many cases, that kind of experience produces adults who are, indeed, value mavens. But it can sometimes produce adults who resent depriving themselves of anything, and get great satisfaction out of dropping wads o'cash.

Judging by your age, your grandmother was probably a Depression kid, right? I suspect that has a lot more to do with her bargain-mindedness than her being Jewish does.

[jbraynolds]

"Wads O'Cash"? Famous Irish gourmand?

[melkor]

The shock was of the cinematic variety: imagine me at my table holding the check and then a flashback montage of all the food we ate and how small and unimpressive it all was and then cut back to me staring up at the camera as it pulls away, yelling "Nooooooo!" while dramatic music plays.

I'm not the least bit surprised that you're catching this much flack for not enjoying a sub-par experience. People are awfully protective of places they have had a good experience. Providing good service means making everyone feel welcome and comfortable. If they didn't accomplish that then you have every right to feel slighted.

I've had several shitty experiences eating at high-end restaurants - Fleur de Lys in San Francisco is a perfect example: poor service, unremarkable food, and a $300 bill for two. I'm barely older than you are, though apparently I've aged poorly as no one would guess my age as what it is. For the most part I'm treated quite well when I go out to eat, but there are certainly occassions when the staff for whatever reason decides that I should not enjoy my meal. Tra Vigne in St Helena, where I used to eat regularly has provided quite possibly the worst service I've ever experienced and I'm certain it was because the waiter that day decided I did not belong there. Maybe having had the value section of the wine list pointed out to me twice while I was reading the list wasn't exactly the best way to start things off...

Anyway, it sucks that you had a bad meal at CT. I've never been there so I can't compare notes directly, but I can completely understand the experience you describe.

[Mark Sommelier]

Never eaten at Trotter's. Doubt I want to. The tiny portion things drives me crazy. I was at a "happening" restaurant not too long ago. The menu said "baby beet salad". What came: 16" Bernardaud bowl with exactly 3 tiny beets, sliced, and some frisée in the center. 2 bites. I waited how long for this? I work in a cuisine/chef driven restaurant. I encounter young diners all the time. Luckily, I DO have a sense of humor and know how to buy wines that don't cost a fortune and actually taste good. It is all about making people feel comfortable.

[Craig Camp]

Every restaurant has it characteristics and personality. That is why we choose one over the other. Part of the Trotter's personality are many small dishes of distinct and focused flavors. If this is not the kind of dining experience you want do not go to Trotter's.

As I have mentioned before in all the times I had the pleasure to dine at Trotter's I never once left hungry. The current Grand Menu includes eight courses and it is really more like 10 or 12 or maybe more. The Kitchen Table menu includes 17 courses and in reality may approach 25 by the time they are done with you. Believe me no matter how small the portions are you are not hungry after such an experience. I remember years ago that every time I would dine at Le Francais, the famous (now gone) classic French restaurant of Jean Banchet, that I would sleep terribly and wake up the next day with a food hang-over. I'll take the Trotter's experience thank you.

The wine list at Trotter's has also always featured many choices at reasonable prices. For instance if you look at the current selections they match with the Grand Menu there are nothing but interesting and well selected wines that all sell at moderate prices. These wines are listed below:

Bruno Paillard "Premiere Cuvee" Brut NV

Tim Adams Riesling, Clare Valley 2002

Schiopetto Pinot Bianco, Collio 2001

Lemelson "Thea's Selection" Pinot Noir, Willamette 2000

Sirita Cabernet Sauvignon, Napa 2000

Coteaux du Layon "Cuvee La Paon" Domaine des Baumard 2001

Smith-Woodhouse 10 Year Old Tawny Port

The current wine by the glass selection would also allow someone to select one or two glasses to enjoy with their meal without breaking the bank:

Champagne / Sparkling

Veuve Clicquot Ponsardin "La Grande Dame" Brut 1993 $57.00

Bruno Paillard "Premiere Cuvee" Brut NV $21.00

Ca’ del Bosco, Franciacorta Brut NV $12.00

Whites

Tim Adams Riesling, Clare Valley 2002 17.00

Schiopetto Pinot Bianco, Collio 2001 $16.00

Garretson "Table 62" Viognier, Santa Barbara 2001 $15.00

Chassagne-Montrachet "Les Caillerets" M. Colin 2000 $22.00

Gallo "Estate" Chardonnay, Sonoma 1998 $18.00

Rose

Bandol Rose Domaine Tempier 2001 $10.00

Reds

W.H. Smith "Hellenthal Vineyard" Pinot Noir, Sonoma Coast 1999 $24.00

Chinon "Les Granges" B. Baudry 2001 $11.00

Mauro, Castilla y Leon 1998 $15.00

Silver Oak Cabernet Sauvignon, Alexander Valley 1999 $35.00

Hewitson "L'Oizeau" Shiraz, McLaren Vale 1999 $15.00

These are all nice wines and not the kind of selections you would make if you were out to gouge the customer. Also, having met all the sommeliers that have worked at Trotter's over the years I am absolutely certain that each of them would take the time to accommodate the needs and interests of every customer no matter their age or budget. For instance some of these wines listed below from their current list:

Macon-Prisse "En Chailloux" Thibert-Parisse 2001 $31

Pommard "Clos de la Platiere" Prince de Merode 1998 $59

Amity Pinot Blanc, Willamette 2000 $25

Roter Veltliner Manterhof, Kremstal 2000 $33

Frankland Estate "Olmo's Reward" Frankland River 1998 $55

Chianti Classico "Riserva" Fattoria Valtellina 1998 $33

Blason d'Issan 2000 $63

Graacher Himmelreich Riesling Spatlese S. Prum 2001 $27

Cantina Terlano "Classico" Alto Adige 2000 $30 (one of the best deals in white wine on the planet).

[Craig Camp]

By the way I bet they made that Bellini with the Ca’ del Bosco, Franciacorta Brut NV. That makes an expensive Bellini.

[marcus]

Craig, I don't think that anyone has criticized Trotter's wine program. The list is well selected and well priced, and the sommelier's are knowledgeable and helpful. I've observed their chief sommelier a number of times at NYC wine auctions always bottom fishing, grabbing up lots that slip through at a lower price. This kind of effort is ultimately a benefit to his customers. My problem is with the food.

[mags]

"Wads O'Cash"? Famous Irish gourmand?

Actually, the apostrophe was a mistake. I should have written "Wadso Cash" -- the late and sainted Johnny's younger brother.