Biodynamic Winemaking

[Dave the Cook]

. . . sacrificing a minor beatle or two is what makes their wine great . . .

But Ringo is the only minor Beatle left!

[Fat Guy]

whether there is a scientific basis to it or not really is not of that much interest to me.

I get your point. Hey, I'm not growing any wine. And ultimately I only care if it's good. Nonetheless, I think "the truth" is interesting from the perspective of reproducing the results, and also because I have a general interest in promoting skepticism especially as it pertains to food-mysticism.

[melkor]

It's hard to ignore some of the astrology aspects of biodynamic farming, if you plant seeds a few days before a full moon they will germinate much faster than they would if you planted them a few days after a full moon.  The things that are planted in sync with the moons cycle end up significantly stronger and often produce better fruit.

Oh?

Is there any actual evidence that this is the case? I'm not asking this facetiously, I'm actually curious.

Give it a try yourself, buy a packet of alfalfa seeds and set up a test in your kitchen. Take a papertowl and soak it with warm water, fold it into a square small enough to fit in whatever bowl you decide to use, and sprinkle a dozen or so seeds onto it, add some water every day or two just to keep it moist and keep track of how long it takes for the sprouts to get big enough to eat. Repeat every once a week and you'll see that it the speed the plants grow seems to corrispond to the phases of the moon.

From personal experience it seems to work, though I don't believe in it enough to actually plan my garden around it. It's interesting to have things germinate in 2 days sometimes and 10 other times.

[melkor]

I get your point. Hey, I'm not growing any wine. And ultimately I only care if it's good. Nonetheless, I think "the truth" is interesting from the perspective of reproducing the results, and also because I have a general interest in promoting skepticism especially as it pertains to food-mysticism.

Another interesting point about biodynamic vineyards is that they generally look much better than the non-bio/organic vineyards, the cover crops and flowers make them look much more lush.

[badthings]

From their supplementary materials:

The biodynamic preparations (P) consist of the following: P 500: cow-manure fermented in a cow horn; P 501: silica fermented in a cow horn. These were applied at rates of 250 and 4 g ha–1 respectively. Composting additives are yarrow flowers (P 502, Achillea millefolium, L.), camomile flowers (P 503, Matricaria recutita, L.), stinging nettle (P 504, Urticaria dioica, L.), oak bark (P 505, Quercus robur, L.), dandelion flowers (P 506, Taraxacum officinale, Wiggers), and valerian flowers (P 507, Valeriana officinalis, L.). A decoction of field horsetail (Equisetum arvense, L.) is applied once during the vegetative growth of wheat and potatoes as a protective agent against plant diseases at rates of 1.5 kg ha–1. Herbicides (1 to 2 treatments yr–1). Fungicides (2 to 3 treatments yr–1) based on threshold values, plant growth regulators were applied routinely to winter wheat. Insect control was required regularly in potatoes and rarely in winter wheat.

Sorry, I couldn't bear to add the italics back in. The fungicides/pesticides are described as "plant extracts, biocontrol." I don't know what kind of chanting, sun soluting or whatever Steiner perscribed (if anything), but they don't mention anything like that, including moon cycles. If someone has specific questions I'll be happy to pass the authors' email address along.

[slkinsey]

Interesting re the moon. Given the various effects that the moon has on the earth, it doesn't entirely surprise me that the moon might have an effect on crops. Perhaps it has to do with a full moon reflecting more light onto the earth?

Anyway... my take on agribusiness versus family vineyard versus mostly organic versus organic versus biodynamic is that each one represents a significant step up in the care that is required and taken in maintaining the crops -- not to mention that the practitioners are going to have different philosophies as to the amount and kind of care they invest in the land. Understanding that, it certainly doesn't strike me as unexpected that the crops produced with more care and attention turn out better -- nor that different farming practices lead to different results, regardless of whether or not one is deemed better than the other.

It is quite clear that biodynamic farming requires an great deal of care for and attention to the land and the crops, and it follows that practitioners of biodynamic farming have philosophies that incline them to devote more care and attention to the land and their crops compared to most non-biodynamic farmers. It seems that this care and attention are producing interesting results. The question, of course, is whether or not a similar level of care and attention, minus the cow horns, pyramid shaped fermenting rooms, North-South oriented aging rooms and so forth would result in a similar product. It strikes me that this is impossible to prove or disprove, but my strong suspicion is that it would.

As others have said -- and I agree -- one need not care whether the farmers are crystal worshipers, snake handlers, Raelians or even Republicans, so long as they make good wine.

[Harry Covére]

I'm also skeptical about the benefits of dung-filled cow horns and quartz dust solutions, but I also see a homeopath. Hey, I'll try it until it stops working. If I found b.d. wines to be categorically superior to similar, non-b.d. wines, I suppose I'd keep drinking those too. But I just can't say I do right now.

Why not do a blind tasting: pick a few b.d. wines and some non b.d. wines from the same appellation (I'd recommend French because they've been doing it the longest and no other country has the same strict certification process) and taste them against each other: see if you can't pick out the b.d. ones, and if you can, figure out what characteristic tips it off.

I've asked some sommeliers and wine geeks what they find distinctive about b.d. wines, and no one can seem to put his or her finger on it. The best answer I got was "it's something terroir-ish, but not really terroir. Sort of earthy, but not quite." This, coming from a guy who gets paid to say stuff like this, only makes me more skeptical. I think he's full of cow dung too.

I agree with Russ that it's probably the patience and TLC these farmers (or grape-growers, if you prefer) are showing their land and crops that is making their products consistently great. That, and someone who is as careful and diligent in the grape growing process as Joly and Leroy (and more locally, the Freys and Fetzers) will carry these habits into the winemaking process.

[DaleW]

I agree with Russ that it's probably the patience and TLC these farmers (or grape-growers, if you prefer) are showing their land and crops that is making their products consistently great. That, and someone who is as careful and diligent in the grape growing process as Joly and Leroy (and more locally, the Freys and Fetzers) will carry these habits into the winemaking process.

That's pretty much my sense. While I find some of these practices bizarre, there's no arguing that these producers turn out a lot of quality wine. Below is a list I posted on a Usenet forum recently of biodynamic prooducers - I think this list is mostly accurate, though very incomplete. For the most part not a bad list of producers! Though some of Chapoutier's lower end stuff doesn't impress me.

Austria:

Nikolaihof

France

Burgundy: Leroy, Lafon, Brocard

Alsace: Deiss, Zind Humbrecht ,Frick , Ostertag, Weinbach

Loire: Coulée de Serrant, Huet, Breton (both?), Clos Roche Blanche,

Rhône: Chapoutier

Provence : Sainte-Anne

USA : Frey

Mostly serious quality producers.

[badthings]

Just to make the argument a little more circular, why would a passionate grape grower like Joly bother to go the extra dynamic mile unless he (she) saw results? I certainly trust the farmer's judgement more than mine. I'm all for skepticism, but just because "science" can't figure something out yet doesn't mean it's not real.

Michel Chapoutier discusses biodynamique in this interview. Includes the bonus quote that drinking Cali. chard. "is like giving Pinocchio a blowjob."

[slkinsey]

...just because "science" can't figure something out yet doesn't mean it's not real.

But it does mean that the effect may not be happening for the reason people suppose it is happening.

Take this hypothetical example: suppose we have a person who has chronic tension headaches. That person decides to become a Zen Buddhist and begins meditating. Lo and behold, after a while his headaches start go away! Does this mean that Zen and Buddah are curing his headaches? No, of course not. What it means is that he has learned to relax the muscles and systems that were triggering the headaches, and that the meditation put him in the psychological state that enabled him to achieve that relaxation. In fact, he could have achieved the same thing via biofeedback or other meditation methods entirely unrelated to the philosophies of Zen Buddhism, which philosophies were only coincidentally related to the cessation of the headaches.

To make another example closer to the sumbect: suppose we have a farmer who takes extreme steps in caring for his land and cultivating his crops. Part of the philosophical outlook to which he subscribes, the outlook which motivates his activities vis a vis the land and crops, involves doing things like fermenting dung in cow horns, placing his just-picked crops in a pyramid-shaped warehouse and making sure that all of his fruit grows facing North. Lo and behold, after a year or two of this philosophy, his crops taste much better! Does this mean that the cow horn and the pyramid and the North orientation is responsible? Or might it be the hundred other things he is doing differently? Most likely, the latter. But, here we have a situation, much like the situation bescribed above with Zen meditation, where there is already a philosophical system in place that provides a structure which tends to lead to certain results. Why fix what isn't broken? It really doesn't matter whether the cown horn thing is so much mumbo-jumbo if the entire package produces results. It's only a negative if the mumbo-jumbo prevents farmers who might otherwise employ the same level of care and attention, and the techniques which actually are important and effectice, from employing that level of care and those techniques.

[melkor]

USA : Frey

Harrison (all biodynamic)

Quintessa (25% of the vinyard is biodynamic)

Robert Sinskey (5 of their 6 vineyards)

Grgich (22 of 365 acres)

Araujo (the entire Eisele vineyard)

Benziger (estate wines are biodynamic)

[melkor]

Clearly the bigger question here is being overlooked, is the wine clip compatable with biodynamic wine? or does it cause them both to burst into flames?

[slkinsey]

Clearly the bigger question here is being overlooked, is the wine clip compatable with biodynamic wine? or does it cause them both to burst into flames?

Actually... I hear that, if you run biodynamic wine through a Wine Clip under a crystal pyramid while there is strong sunspot activity, you get cold fusion! I read it in an article published on the prestigious Internet, so it must be true!

[badthings]

It's only a negative if the mumbo-jumbo prevents farmers who might otherwise employ the same level of care and attention, and the techniques which actually are important and effectice, from employing that level of care and those techniques.

Of course -- and I am skeptical. Chapoutier is pretty amusing when he starts talking about quarks. I'm just saying that it is wrong to assume that the ram's horn is a priori bullshit just because it sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet. It's not like the USDA (or anyone else) is pouring a lot of money into figuring it out.

[hollywood]

Includes the bonus quote that drinking Cali. chard. "is like giving Pinocchio a blowjob."

Presumably he has permanent wood.

[melkor]

Clearly the bigger question here is being overlooked, is the wine clip compatable with biodynamic wine? or does it cause them both to burst into flames?

Actually... I hear that, if you run biodynamic wine through a Wine Clip under a crystal pyramid while there is strong sunspot activity, you get cold fusion! I read it in an article published on the prestigious Internet, so it must be true!

Well shit, in that case the wine clip would be a bargain at twice the price!

[badthings]

Includes the bonus quote that drinking Cali. chard. "is like giving Pinocchio a blowjob."

Presumably he has permanent wood.

it's the magnets.

[Fat Guy]

I'm just saying that it is wrong to assume that the ram's horn is a priori bullshit just because it sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet.

Actually, "sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet" is a pretty good mechanism for distinguishing between the things you should be willing to assume are true and the things you should be willing to assume are not true until such time as credible evidence presents itself one way or the other -- especially if your crieteria for whether or not something sounds stupid are roughly in line with the current scientific understanding of the universe. For example, do you, like I do, get something like 50 spam e-mails a day promising a larger penis through various technologies that sound stupid and have not been proven? And do you not, like I do, dismiss these ads exactly on the basis of "sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet"? Because, unless you have an unusually large penis to begin with, it would seem that if you really believed these ads you wouldn't hesitate to drop $19.95 in order to have a larger penis instantaneously and with no side-effects. But I don't hear you going around saying, "I'm just saying that it is wrong to assume that the FastSize product is a priori bullshit just because it sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet."

[slkinsey]

For example, do you, like I do, get something like 50 spam e-mails a day promising a larger penis through various technologies that sound stupid and have not been proven? And do you not, like I do, dismiss these ads exactly on the basis of "sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet"? Because, unless you have an unusually large penis to begin with, it would seem that if you really believed these ads you wouldn't hesitate to drop $19.95 in order to have a larger penis instantaneously and with no side-effects. But I don't hear you going around saying, "I'm just saying that it is wrong to assume that the FastSize product is a priori bullshit just because it sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet."

As it so happens, there's a little song that sums up my exact position on this kind of spam.

[Mark Sommelier]

Nicholas Joly has been practicing biodynamie for more than 10 years. I admire and enjoy Coulée de Serrant. Lalou's wines at Leroy and Domaine D'Auvenay are without peer. Dominique Leflaive makes some of Burgundy's best wines. There must be something to this.

[Pan]

Thanks for starting this thread, Felonius. I attended Rudolf Steiner School on the Upper East Side (New York, NY) for 8th grade, so I'm biased. I had a peaceful year with generally nice people, but I consider Steinerism to be largely hogwash. (Just to give a few examples: They believe in the Four Elements and the Alchemic principles of Sulfur, Sal, and Mercurius, and they taught these things in Chemistry, along with both real science and the idea that water is not just H2O because it also has some kind of indefinable life force.) That said, I did spend time at a farm run by Steinerites on the Hudson Valley when I was in 8th grade. I forgot the farm's name, but they sell stuff at the Farmers' Market on Union Square. I'm trying to remember what I got from them a few months ago. They were friendly (like my classmates and teachers were, to a great extent) and I liked whatever it was I bought, but not enough to remember what it was. But I'll look for them again.

Edited October 31, 2003 by Pan (log)

[Craig Camp]

Nicholas Joly has been practicing biodynamie for more than 10 years. I admire and enjoy Coulée de Serrant. Lalou's wines at Leroy and Domaine D'Auvenay are without peer. Dominique Leflaive makes some of Burgundy's best wines. There must be something to this.

Almost every serious winemaker I know has incorporated aspects of the biodynamic approach into their winemaking. They do this because they see a difference in the results. I agree that the complete teachings of Steiner are way out there and to me represent the worst kind of pseudo-science. However, this does not mean that individual aspects of this approach do not have merit.

I agree with Mark and the proof is in the bottle. Yet we cannot ignore all the variables and say that the wines are better because they are biodynamic when the real reason is probably that winemakers that are willing to go through the extra work to practice biodynamic and/or organic agriculture are more dedicated than their neighbors and were to going to make better wines anyway. All of the producers that are using this method were making great wines before they changed.

[Feather]

Wine-improving techniques have been in play for more than 100 years, and I like what malolactic-fermentation does to my wine. But (yes, Michael) Chapoutier has employed bio-dynamic wine growing techniques for (at the very least) 15 years. I BELIEVE 10 years ago, there was a particular fungus wreaking havoc in the Rhone region. All of Chapuotier's neighbors' had lost up to 90% of their vines (of which NONE had employed bio-dynamics) while Chapoutier had lost 10% or less of his vines (and of all of those, he only lost vines that had butted up to neighboring vineyards). I guess my point is, we have improved many ways of what we do to grapes AFTER they are harvested....Why mess with how we grow them??? There are modern improvements, but why question picking grapes by lunar cycles, when we do plenty of things to wine(need I remind us all of the freaking "Wine Clip?"?!

[badthings]

For example, do you, like I do, get something like 50 spam e-mails a day promising a larger penis through various technologies that sound stupid and have not been proven? And do you not, like I do, dismiss these ads exactly on the basis of "sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet"?

No, I dismiss them because I've found that the wine clip works wonders.

Seriously, I dismiss them not only because I doubt their claims, but because I am dubious of the desirability of an instantly enlarged penis -- and of "smoothing out the tannins" or whatever the wine clip is purported to do as well.

Actually, "sounds stupid and no one's proven it yet" is a pretty good mechanism for distinguishing between the things you should be willing to assume are true and the things you should be willing to assume are not true...

Of course, you are right about the scientific method. I get it. However, the only "peer-reviewed scientific study" that I have seen on the subject found some pretty dramatic soil differences between conventional, "regular" organic, and biodynamic plots of land over 21 years. To my knowledge, no one has proposed an explanation for this. I, like everyone else here, am inclined to doubt that "sal and mercurious," or quarks for that matter, have anything to do with it. But until someone can explain why the quartz decoction (or whatever seems plausible) "works" but the ram's horn (or whatever seems implausible) doesn't, the jury is out. And it is arbitrary to assume that one bizarre practice is the cause while another isn't. They all sound pretty kooky. That was my (perhaps poorly-expressed) point.

As Craig pointed out,

All of the producers that are using this method were making great wines before they changed. 

I think this makes Sam's suggestion problematic:

The question, of course, is whether or not a similar level of care and attention, minus the cow horns, pyramid shaped fermenting rooms, North-South oriented aging rooms and so forth would result in a similar product.

It's not like some shitty coop suddenly started producing Yquem from ugni blanc or something. We're talking about careful, dedicated and passionate producers with some pretty nice plots of land where people have been growing grapes for 2,000 years.

[budrichard]

I'll shut up! Thank me very much. -Dick