The Wine Clip

[slkinsey]

My point was, and I admit I wasn't clear, that Daniel Boulud is saying that he is adding truffles to the burger and he is implying that we should be able to taste them yet nobody is asking for scientific proof that there are in fact truffles in the burger. All we want to know is that the burger tastes good. If FG ate the burger and said how wonderful it was and the truffle taste came shining through, that would be enough for most people on this site. Why not the same for the Wine Clip? Mark Sommelier tried it and gave positive feedback but for some reason, we can't accept it.

Well... given what Boulud charges for the burger, that could be a legitimate question.

There is also a big difference here... It is quite easy to taste a burger and see if a truffle flavor is strongly present.

On the other hand, suppose Bouloud said that he got his meat from Jackson Hole and cooked it under a pyramid that used the power of crystals to make the burger taste better -- and for this reason he was charging $27.50 for his "Jackson Hole Magic Pyramid Burger." Now, I can virtually guarantee you that most people who ate Jackson Hole burgers in BD Bistro Moderne would rate those burgers as tasting better than a Jackson Hole burger even though they were 100% identical to the burgers served at Jackson Hole. In this case, it is legitimate to question whether it is the pyramid or perhaps other factors that influence the observed difference in evaluation.

I don't think anyone here is saying that using the Wine Clip cannot or does not make some people perceive the wine as tasting better and enhance their wine drinking experience. I would say the same thing about keeping the bottles in a pyramid-shaped container, or even drinking wine that has a fancy label or a famous name. BUT that doesn't mean that the Wine Clip or the pyramid or the fancy label or the famous name actually makes the wine taste better. Now, it is certainly legitimate to ask, as Mr. Clip is asking, whether it makes a difference if these things actually work so long as they enhance the consumer's experience. In the grand scheme of things: no, it doesn't matter. Some people get a lot of satisfaction paying top dollar at retail for All-Clad because they think they are getting the "best cookware made." And, so long as they are happy with their cookware, who cares if it is true or not? These are not the questions we are asking here, however. Some of us are interested in knowing whether or not the Wine Clip really does make a difference and whether or not All-Clad's construction and design really is better than all others.

[slkinsey]

SLK, please elucidate. I do not follow the requirement that the non-clipped bottles need to be fitted with a "placebo" clip. If the pourer is not present when the wine is tasted, does it matter?

It could influence the way the wine is poured, it may have a slight cooling effect on the wine... there are many things that might be slightly changed by the presence of a metallic clip on the neck of the bottle. The nonmagnetic would be a "placebo" and would have much the same function as giving patients a sugar pill. It just eliminates any possible source of data contamination. Granted... it's probably not essential. Given the resources to do such a test, however, I think it's advisable to go all the way.

Ultimately, the best way to pour the wine would be to have each bottle in a nitrogen-flushed system that dispensed measured identical doses from each bottle simultaneously without any human participation.

[thewineclip]

Please excuse me if I am having trouble following the description of the tests.  Not long ago, you said

Although we tested it in a lab with people who have PHd's it was not in the way certain eG members (not you) suggest we should have.

I took the "we" to mean individuals associate with or hired by your company. I took the "it" to mean the wine clip. I took "in a lab with people who have PHd's" to mean people who have earned Ph.D.s in a relevant field did the tests.

After some follow up questions, you wrote

It was a test regarding the coaster product, not the wine clip.  And no I am not embarrassed.

It was more than 12 months ago. But if my memory serves me right I believe the college students that performed the test stated that they could taste a difference but could not determine why.  If I remember the name of the college, I'll find the report.

Now, with all due respect, I would expect someone who claims to have tested a product using the language you used in the first quote would have a copy of the results on hand. I would also expect the test to have been done on their product, as the original language strongly implied. Finally, I would expect they would know the difference between college students and Ph.D.s. But maybe I am asking for too much here.

You are grossly altering my quotes and comments. Let me set clarity...

1. Someone suggested we go to a local Univ. and have students conduct a scientific test. My reply to that was simple to understand. There is a report which was conducted by students at a University. I read this report more than 12 months ago when first introduced to the magnetic devise now know as the wine clip. This report, which was on the web, was NOT about the wine clip. It was regarding another magnetic wine product.

2. You may recall that I have a friend that owns a magnet company. They are QS9000 company and ship various magnets to various clients around the world. They were the "scientists" I was referring to.

At the time we began flirting with the idea of going mainstream with the wine clip, there was no vision of needing lab results for posting on the internet (or any journals). We were intriqued, as I still am with the change in taste.

I don't claim to be the smartest guy in the room. My skills in writing, wine and science are no where close to yours or the others within this thread. You'll have to forgive me for that.

[thewineclip]

Some of us are interested in knowing whether or not the Wine Clip really does make a difference and whether or not All-Clad's construction and design really is better than all others.

And that's fine. Test the clip one hundred different ways, I have no issue. What I do have issue with is people making slanderous remarks regarding me and my company while your trying to figure out how to do it.

[slkinsey]

Are we asking them to take a test? Yes.  Does that get their imagination? Yes. Does it alter their senses of smell, taste and an ability to determine a difference? I say no. To suggest that all of these people are being tricked by a placebo is a radical claim.

If you don't think that the way a perceptual test is conducted can have a large effect on the result, and if you think that claims to that effect are "radical" -- all this demonstrates is your ignorance of experimental psychology.

Our marketing states that the wine clip will enhance the taste of wine.  That's our opinion and that's our findings.  It's all taking place under the influence of magnetics.

No. Your marketing should state that the Wine Clip enhances your wine drinking experience. That is a safe claim. Your claim, that it actually enhances the taste of wine has not been proven. You are correct that it is your opinion, but is is not your "finding" because you have not conducted any valid controlled experiments in which to make any "findings." You need to be careful about throwing around scientific-seeming words that make it appear as though the Wine Clip has scientific support when in fact it does not at this point. The same thing goes for your statement about magnetics. Your opinion is that "it's all taking place under the influence of magnetics" but, in fact, you have no support for this claim. Whatever difference you are observing in your tests could come from a variety of factors completely unrelated to the magnets. This is why it is unadvisable to make such claims without having conducted any real scientific evaluation.

Ringling Brothers claims that its show is the Greatest Show on Earth. I haven't found any reports on the Internet that supports this claim. Are their ticket sales greater than any other show ever performed?  I don't take offence to their claim.

Ringling Brothers' claim is obviously marketing hype, and is clearly a matter of opinion anyway. There is no factual basis by which such a claim may be evaluated. If, on the other hand, Ringling Brothers claimed that their show included "the world's longest high wire walk" one could evaluate this factual claim. You are making a factual claim when you sau that the Wine Clip uses "magnetics" to "enhance the taste of wine." You would be in the same boat as Ringling Brothers' "Greatest Show on Earth" claim if you said instead that "the Wine Clip magnetic device enhances your wine drinking experience." There is a subtle but salient difference.

[slkinsey]

Some of us are interested in knowing whether or not the Wine Clip really does make a difference and whether or not All-Clad's construction and design really is better than all others.

And that's fine. Test the clip one hundred different ways, I have no issue. What I do have issue with is people making slanderous remarks regarding me and my company while your trying to figure out how to do it.

The problem that people are having is that you are making certain claims as though you have sound evidence to support those claims when in fact you do not. This is not slander, it is a fact. Now, I don't think you need to make those claims to move the product, but you're the one making that call.

[hollywood]

But Dennis is not interested in that, if I read him correctly.  He's only looking for perception of change; to him, perception IS reality.

If only Carlos Castenada were around for this one.

[hollywood]

Mark, am I reading your experiment correctly: is it correct to say that in every instance you first poured unclipped and then poured clipped from the same bottle? If so, I'd be interested to see you try the exact same experiment without the clip. In other words, pour eight pours from a bottle. Have people taste the first four pours against the second four pours. It seems likely that the later pours receive more agitation and oxygen than the initial pours. Certainly we all know that the first pour out of a bottle tends to be the worst.

Plus mouth effects. The second glass of the same wine in the same mouth may generally taste "better."

[thewineclip]

Are we asking them to take a test? Yes.  Does that get their imagination? Yes.   Does it alter their senses of smell, taste and an ability to determine a difference? I say no. To suggest that all of these people are being tricked by a placebo is a radical claim.

If you don't think that the way a perceptual test is conducted can have a large effect on the result, and if you think that claims to that effect are "radical" -- all this demonstrates is your ignorance of experimental psychology.

Our marketing states that the wine clip will enhance the taste of wine.  That's our opinion and that's our findings.  It's all taking place under the influence of magnetics.

No. Your marketing should state that the Wine Clip enhances your wine drinking experience. That is a safe claim. Your claim, that it actually enhances the taste of wine has not been proven. You are correct that it is your opinion, but is is not your "finding" because you have not conducted any valid controlled experiments in which to make any "findings." You need to be careful about throwing around scientific-seeming words that make it appear as though the Wine Clip has scientific support when in fact it does not at this point. The same thing goes for your statement about magnetics. Your opinion is that "it's all taking place under the influence of magnetics" but, in fact, you have no support for this claim. Whatever difference you are observing in your tests could come from a variety of factors completely unrelated to the magnets. This is why it is unadvisable to make such claims without having conducted any real scientific evaluation.

Ringling Brothers claims that its show is the Greatest Show on Earth. I haven't found any reports on the Internet that supports this claim. Are their ticket sales greater than any other show ever performed?  I don't take offence to their claim.

Ringling Brothers' claim is obviously marketing hype, and is clearly a matter of opinion anyway. There is no factual basis by which such a claim may be evaluated. If, on the other hand, Ringling Brothers claimed that their show included "the world's longest high wire walk" one could evaluate this factual claim. You are making a factual claim when you sau that the Wine Clip uses "magnetics" to "enhance the taste of wine." You would be in the same boat as Ringling Brothers' "Greatest Show on Earth" claim if you said instead that "the Wine Clip magnetic device enhances your wine drinking experience." There is a subtle but salient difference.

I need some Advil (or a placebo).

You are correct that I am ignorant with regard to experimental psychology. I also don't understand how deja vu works but I know I've been here before. Only this time I won't get caught up in the silly stuff.

Here's one more claim... The Wine Clip works but something tells me you're not going to believe that.

[hollywood]

But you cannot read!  I said WINE - I care less about Dinner.

Here the two are inexorabley linked.

inexorabley

Well, maybe conjoined.

[hollywood]

You are grossly altering my quotes and comments.  Let me set clarity...

1.  Someone suggested we go to a local Univ. and have students conduct a scientific test.  My reply to that was simple to understand.  There is a report which was conducted by students at a University.  I read this report more than 12 months ago when first introduced to the magnetic devise now know as the wine clip.  This report, which was on the web, was NOT about the wine clip.  It was regarding another magnetic wine product. 

2. You may recall that I have a friend that owns a magnet company.  They are QS9000 company and ship various magnets to various clients around the world.  They were the "scientists" I was referring to.

At the time we began flirting with the idea of going mainstream with the wine clip, there was no vision of needing lab results for posting on the internet (or any journals).

This reminds me of a product liability case I was involved in years ago. Our client's product proudly bore a sticker that read "[insert name of well known federal agency] tested." It turned out the product was "[agency] tested." Unfortunately, the product had failed the test miserably. Yeah, we settled the case.

[thewineclip]

You are grossly altering my quotes and comments.  Let me set clarity...

1.  Someone suggested we go to a local Univ. and have students conduct a scientific test.  My reply to that was simple to understand.  There is a report which was conducted by students at a University.  I read this report more than 12 months ago when first introduced to the magnetic devise now know as the wine clip.  This report, which was on the web, was NOT about the wine clip.  It was regarding another magnetic wine product. 

2. You may recall that I have a friend that owns a magnet company.  They are QS9000 company and ship various magnets to various clients around the world.  They were the "scientists" I was referring to.

At the time we began flirting with the idea of going mainstream with the wine clip, there was no vision of needing lab results for posting on the internet (or any journals).

This reminds me of a product liability case I was involved in years ago. Our client's product proudly bore a sticker that read "[insert name of well known federal agency] tested." It turned out the product was "[agency] tested." Unfortunately, the product had failed the test miserably. Yeah, we settled the case.

See, it's the comments like this that are misleading and start the influx of sarcasm.

Why would you compare TWC and our marketing material to a product / company that used a government agency's tests in a misleading manner?

I stand firm - we are misleading no one.

I do have another serious question for the experts: What is the prerequisite for becoming a Master of Wine?

Edited October 13, 2003 by thewineclip (log)

[John W.]

thewineclip;

Speaking as a potential consumer of your product, I can say without scientific evidence or otherwise, your demeanor whether defending yourself or not, has definitely lost a sale here. Even if your wine clip could change Hearty Burgundy into Musigny, I would not be a customer. Enthusiasm for your product aside, your blatant sales pitch here on what amounts to a board of opinions is quite off-putting.

[Craig Camp]

Even if your wine clip could change Hearty Burgundy into Musigny, I would not be a customer.

In this case I would buy one.

[John W.]

Even if your wine clip could change Hearty Burgundy into Musigny, I would not be a customer.

In this case I would buy one.

Actually, on second thought, I'd borrow Mark's. But my point still stands.

Edited October 13, 2003 by John W. (log)

[hollywood]

Why would you compare TWC and our marketing material to a product / company that used a government agency's tests in a misleading manner?

Uh, deja vu all over again. Didn't you say...

"Although we tested it in a lab with people who have PHd's it was not in the way certain eG members (not you) suggest we should have."

[balex]

As to why we single out thewineclip .... well he came here, he has a financial interest in it, and he's making a very radical claim.

I came her after the post started. Please be acurate when making reference to my interests.

I would like to know what our "radical claim" is?

from your web site:

The Wine Clip is a unique, patent-pending innovation that miraculously makes wine softer, smoother and more desirable.

Simply attach The Wine Clip on the neck of your wine bottle and pour. You'll instantly experience a smoother, less tanic taste and enhanced bouquet similar to that of wines which are aged for years in professional cellars.

The action of the wine passing through the magnetic field breaks up the wine's natural tannins creating a smoother, more refined flavor that is unmistakable. It's as if the wine was aged for several years!

New Wine Drinkers: Avoid the bitter taste found in untreated wines.

Specifically the claim that the magnetic field 'breaks up tannins' seems radical to me (I am not a chemist). Some of the other claims seem a tad controversial as well.

[gsquared]

I think that events have probably overtaken the significance of the arrival today of my wine clip. Thank you Dennis. The question is now, do I keep it or return it? I guess I'll wait to see what Alex has to say, but there does not seem to be much sense in mounting YAT (Yet Another Test).

[thewineclip]

thewineclip;

Speaking as a potential consumer of your product, I can say without scientific evidence or otherwise, your demeanor whether defending yourself or not, has definitely lost a sale here. Even if your wine clip could change Hearty Burgundy into Musigny, I would not be a customer. Enthusiasm for your product aside, your blatant sales pitch here on what amounts to a board of opinions is quite off-putting.

I'm having trouble finding a sales pitch within my comments. I am defending our product in a forum where I seem to stand alone next to Sammy.

I am truly sorry to hear that you won't be buying a clip.

[thewineclip]

Why would you compare TWC and our marketing material to a product / company that used a government agency's tests in a misleading manner?

Uh, deja vu all over again. Didn't you say...

"Although we tested it in a lab with people who have PHd's it was not in the way certain eG members (not you) suggest we should have."

I fail to see how you can determine my quote as combative? It wasn't meant to be. I just don't understand the comparison.

[thewineclip]

As to why we single out thewineclip .... well he came here, he has a financial interest in it, and he's making a very radical claim.

I came her after the post started. Please be acurate when making reference to my interests.

I would like to know what our "radical claim" is?

from your web site:

The Wine Clip is a unique, patent-pending innovation that miraculously makes wine softer, smoother and more desirable.

Simply attach The Wine Clip on the neck of your wine bottle and pour. You'll instantly experience a smoother, less tanic taste and enhanced bouquet similar to that of wines which are aged for years in professional cellars.

The action of the wine passing through the magnetic field breaks up the wine's natural tannins creating a smoother, more refined flavor that is unmistakable. It's as if the wine was aged for several years!

New Wine Drinkers: Avoid the bitter taste found in untreated wines.

Specifically the claim that the magnetic field 'breaks up tannins' seems radical to me (I am not a chemist). Some of the other claims seem a tad controversial as well.

I think the eG user agreement frowns upon the cutting and pasting of another site's content.

But yes, I would say that's our content - can't see the harm or misleading tones you suggest.

Perhaps you would consider rephrasing it for me? Seriously.

[thewineclip]

I think that events have probably overtaken the significance of the arrival today of my wine clip. Thank you Dennis. The question is now, do I keep it or return it? I guess I'll wait to see what Alex has to say, but there does not seem to be much sense in mounting YAT (Yet Another Test).

Your welcome. Hurts to hear you'd return it.

[balex]

May I make a suggestion for a test protocol that I personally would find convincing. This is quite similar to slkinsey's suggestion.

For each wine the contestant has three glasses -- one unclipped, one clipped and one which is randomly either clipped or unclipped depending on a flipped coin (traditionally labelled A B and X).

You flip the coins and pour the wines and write down what they are. Then you LEAVE THE ROOM. No-one who knows the answer should be in the room when the testing is going on.

The contestant has to write down whether he thinks the X glass is the same as A (unclipped) or B (clipped). No description is necessary , no tasting notes.

Do this with 10 wines. Then you go back in and mark them. If the contestant gets 9 out of 10 right then there is only a 5% chance this happened by chance. (Or do it with 5 in which case he needs 5 out of 5).

[thewineclip]

I'm being yelled at by my wife because I'm spending so much time on this site instead of playing with the kids. No sense being in the dog house with her. I think it's time to move on.

As a departing gesture of goodwill, I've created a coupon that can be used at our site. The coupon gives all eG users a $30 discount towards the purchase of a Wine Clip. To use it is simple:

Go to the site www.thewineclip.com and click the order button. Go through the steps and when asked, plug in the coupon code "egullet". This will leave a checkout balance of $19.95. Shipping is free in the US. I will leave this coupon running for as long as egullet is in existence.

In the end... you can like me, hate me, love the wine clip or hate the wine clip, it doesn't matter. We're going to stay on the path we've charted. As our journey evolves we'll always consider ourselves fortunate to have the chance of talking, laughing, debating and yelling about something so insignificant. As a reminder of just how lucky we are, I will donate the proceeds of the first 50 "egullet coupon" clips sold to the Make- A - Wish Foundation. (I will post the evidence).

Now I hope no one posts anything derogatory about that.

Enjoy your wine (even you Fat Guy).

Stay well -

Dennis L

Edited October 13, 2003 by thewineclip (log)

[SethG]

This thread is moving so fast, I don't want anyone to miss the fact that a couple pages ago Dennis said I write some of the smarter posts!

Given the company I'm in, I take that as high praise.

I love the Wine Clip!

Edited to add:

And as your lawyer, Dennis, I agree wholeheartedly with your exit strategy.

Edited October 13, 2003 by SethG (log)