Triangle here I come?

[smogle]

I am a young chef considering a move to the triangle area. Are there any great restaurants here or am I out of mind to even consider it?

[Dave the Cook]

Welcome to eGullet, smogle.

By "triangle," do you mean the Research Triangle?

[Varmint]

There's quite a few good restaurants, smogle. What type of work are you looking for? What's your background and training?

[smogle]

I have worked fine dining for a few years, staged at the French Laundry, and am set to graduate CIA in april. I was wondering what the reasturant scene was like , types of places, good chefs to work with , that kind of thing.

thanks

[Varmint]

Here's a starting list of restaurants to look at. I don't have time to list the chefs right now, but if you search for the name of the restaurant and the town, you should find lots of info.

Magnolia Grill in Durham

Four Square in Durham

Nana's, Pop's in Durham

Fearrington in Pittsboro

Elaine's on Franklin in Chapel Hill

La Residence in Chapel Hill

Lantern in Chapel Hill

Crooks Corner in Chapel Hill

Enoteca Vin in Raleigh

Second Empire in Raleigh

Fins in Raleigh

Bistro 607 in Raleigh

Bloomsbury Bistro in Raleigh and The Cosmopolitan in Cary (same chef)

That should be a good start.

[smogle]

Thank you kindly, that was exactly what I was looking for.

[Jadrool]

Not exactly the what you guys were talking about, but, Varmint, I’m just curious as to what restaurants you might recommend in the area. We often visit friends in Cary and have continuously been disappointed by the restaurants there. Any suggestions? Thanks

[artisanbaker]

www.lafarmbakery.com

[soupkitchen]

I have cooked in Raleigh since I was 19, went to CIA graduated in 99, cooked in ny and the Inn at Little Washington, moved back to Raleigh and have settled here for the time being. There are some good restaurant s here and some great people to work for. However there are only so many challenges that you will find here and there are only a few places that I would recommend to lay the foundation of a young cook in addition the restaurants in Raleigh are not nearly as busy some of the other place I have worked and if your looking for line experience the busy the better. Raleigh/Durham would not be my first choice for an aspiring young Chef to work in, check a more food oriented market SF, NY, DC, LA, Atlanta, Chicago, Boston, aboard, etc...... I get very jealous when I visit these cities.

[Varmint]

Thanks, soupkitchen, and welcome to eGullet. Of course, no mid-sized market will have the opportunities of a city such as NY, SF or any other major metropolitan area. But when you consider the lifestyle trade offs, do you think it hurts long-term to work at a place such as Fearrington, Magnolia Grill, or one of Scott Howell's joints??? Does working in this environment actually inhibit a career?

[soupkitchen]

The triangle is a great place to live and has a lot to offer to its residence. Will working in Raleigh inhibit your chef career? No, only if you let it. Do I recommend a young Chef out of culinary school to move to Raleigh to begin exploring, laying the ground work, practicing the fundamentals he was shown at school? No

Can you do well under the the area restaurants you mentioned? yes, as a former sous of Fearington I worked at other properties outside of the Triangle(NC) and I am glad I did before I moved back here.

Look at the Chefs in the area and at there resumes. Very few came directly to Raleigh to start there career here. What I recommend to smogle is to make the short and long term goals to see what best fits his desires,needs and lifestlye.

[widebody]

In response to earlier post looking for good restaurants I'd go with any on the list above, plus add Margaux's in Raleigh. Those should keep you occupied for a while.

[phlawless]

Like soupkitchen, i've been cooking in the area since my early twenties, and have worked at a number of the places varmint listed. I do, however, think this area has prevented me from moving on to larger markets. Maybe that has more to do with my lifestyle and professional preferences, i.e. i don't care to spend 15 hours a day making money for someone else, like i know i would if i were to experience the kitchens of Le Bernadin, the Laundry, or Trio. This area affords you a more relaxed pace, and as a result, i think most professionals, just like the diners of the area, get a bit slack. Expectations are lowered, creativity stifled, and there is just a general atmosphere of laziness. It's very disheartening when you see flocks of people hoarded around the likes of PF Chang's and even on a more 'local' level, Sullivan's, paying a good amount of money to eat basically corporate food. That's what people want here. It sucks. Don't listen to me, smogle, I've become too cynical too early, and I turn green whenever I travel as well. For chrissakes, even Asheville has a better food scene than here.

[Varmint]

It is clear that the Triangle isn't the food hotbed of the US, but there are only a few of those anyhow. Nevertheless, I think that expectations need to be matched to reality. Will this area support a few NYC type 3 star restaurants? Perhaps only 1 or 2 at the most. It does, however, have a handful of what would be 2 or 1 star joints. Even in the San Franciscos and Chicagos of the world, the chain restaurants thrive. It's all part of the Wal-Mart phenomenon, but as consumers and professionals, we can all do our part to help sustain a good food culture.

I encourage you, phlawless and soupkitchen, to help assess what more could be done in this region. I know Ben Barker works pretty hard to develop good relationships with area farmers. There's a number of chefs who rely on the Carrboro Farmers Market. What disappoints me is that I've developed a solid relationship with a farmer who grows lots of heirloom tomatoes. He sells them at the State Farmers Market at a price less than the standard, red tomatoes -- only because they're not as pretty. The consumers must be educated, and to do my part, I stood in front of his stand for 15 minutes one day, drawing in passersby and informing them how much better these tomatoes were than what was being sold elsewhere. One taste convinced them. They sold more tomatoes in that 15 minutes than they had in the prior 3 hours.

I am getting to my point. Here's a farmer with a great product at a ridiculous price. I asked him if he's developed a relationship with any of the restaurants, and he said that he really hadn't even thought of that angle. We, the patrons of the restaurants, need to let the chefs know that we'd like to see more of a focus on local ingredients. We also need to push the farmers to market their products as well. Give it time, it will get better. At least, I hope it does.

[phlawless]

I don't think the problem is a lack of three star restaurants, what i despise is that an enjoyable meal must come with a ridiculous check. Our mid-price selections have all been eaten up by the mega-mall franchises. People in this area dine out either for special occasions or ultra-convenience; few modest-priced locals exist, and this is what gauls me.

Ben has had great forsight by establishing relationships with local producers, and I only wish we could have more options like that. We just learned however, that Carolina Organic Growers, a state wide distributor out of Asheville, will no longer be making runs to this area. Lack of organization maybe, but more likely is lack of interest.

what's up with the new co-op planned for 2005?

[Varmint]

Several good points in a relatively short post. Let's focus on this one, which is the most important:

Our mid-price selections have all been eaten up by the mega-mall franchises. People in this area dine out either for special occasions or ultra-convenience; few modest-priced locals exist, and this is what gauls me.

With the exception of some Asian restaurants, you're right on the money with this point. When you're not looking at a chain, you're often staring at a chain-like local restaurant having no creativity or thought in its menu. It's almost as if there's a kit on how to open a restaurant that includes a formulaic menu. Yeah, some places don't follow that formula, but they certainly won't be accused of being innovators: Caffe Luna, Fishmongers, Humble Pie, Five Star, etc. None of them are great. What shall we do about that. Remember, the Triangle is not a destination. It's a place to live and raise families. People all too often leave the area for their excitement, whether geographic or gastronomic. I'm often asked what the Triangle has that is better than anywhere else, and I can't give them an answer. There's a lot of good stuff, but not anything great.

Ben has had great forsight by establishing relationships with local producers, and I only wish we could have more options like that. We just learned however, that Carolina Organic Growers, a state wide distributor out of Asheville, will no longer be making runs to this area. Lack of organization maybe, but more likely is lack of interest.

Is that a lack of interest from the restaurateurs? If so, it'll take someone like Ben to step up to the plate to start something fresh involving the entire Triangle -- not just Durham and Chapel Hill. Raleigh is the poor stepchild in the Triangle's culinary scene. Folks like Chrish Peel of Carolina Wine Company (and Vin) are trying to do more with Raleigh, but it's not happening. I wish I had answers, but unfortunately, I don't -- heck, I'm not even in the industry!

[phlawless]

Ben Barker is not a fan of Raleigh, and probably never will be. I used to scoff at his insolence about Raleigh, but now I understand his reasons. He knows he could make more money here or in Cary but would have to compromise his menu to do so. The atmosphere he creates in his kitchen is one I haven't seen paralleled anywhere else...maybe that's a good thing. But I will defend the incredible commitment he has made to a level of food preperation and community involvement that is regretably absent in other fine dining establishments. No corners are cut, the kitchen is unbelievably staffed, every item in the walk-in and freezer cataloged...sorry, I'm straying from my point. But unfortunately, there aren't that many others (chefs, restaurateurs) who have the vision, much less the energy, to involve themselves in that type of movement. Andrea Reusing of Lantern is an exception.

I think what we can do as consumers and professionals is not to allow some certain places to get away with the sub-standard fare they're feeding us. I don't hesitate in giving an honest, yet diplomatic, opinion when asked, and I'm usually thanked for it. Some local professionals see me as uppity and a snob, and maybe I am a bit too opinionated, but it seems that most everyone is too delicate with their criticism in fear of hurting someone's feelings, or more accurately, diminishing their Saturday covers. Our food writing and reviews in this area is the perfect example. Greg Cox is incredibly kind to most of the establishments he reviews, and I feel it's only hurting them in the end. Very few places strive to offer what's lacking, or improve on what's already been done. And that's why I spend my time and money in my own kitchen rather than risking an evening spent on a mediocre meal. I could get started on the grocers in the area, but I'll refrain. My coffee is enabling my ranting, and I need to save the buzz for a wedding cake I've got to start on today.

So I'll try to be a little less critical and more proactive in my attitude: is anyone interested in the Slowfood movement? There is a local convivium that doesn't seem to do much, and I'd like to see it have more influence in the area. It's based primarily out of Durham/Chapel Hill (of course) and I know the guy who heads it...I think it needs a sizeable shot of interest to make it the effective catalyst that it strives to be. I emailed him a couple of days ago about upcoming events, but haven't gotten a response.

[Varmint]

For some bizarre reason, I can't post anything longer than a couple of lines. I'll get back to this later. But let me say this, if Ben Barker were to move Magnolia Grill to Raleigh, he'd be equally successful.

[Varmint]

Ben Barker is not a fan of Raleigh, and probably never will be. I used to scoff at his insolence about Raleigh, but now I understand his reasons. He knows he could make more money here or in Cary but would have to compromise his menu to do so.

I don't understand why he, or others, couldn't create the same environment here in Raleigh. Please explain this, as I think this market would be incredibly receptive to someone with Ben's passion, creativity and commitment.

Some local professionals see me as uppity and a snob, and maybe I am a bit too opinionated, but it seems that most everyone is too delicate with their criticism in fear of hurting someone's feelings, or more accurately, diminishing their Saturday covers.

You'll fit in perfectly here on eGullet.

Greg Cox is incredibly kind to most of the establishments he reviews, and I feel it's only hurting them in the end.

I don't think Greg has much to go on, so his "curve" has indeed nudged up too much of late.

I think a lot of the recent problems derive from the economy. Would you open up a new restaurant that doesn't take corners that has a slimmer margin in this economy? It's a tough market right now, and we're getting mediocrity and laziness as a result. Folks are too scared to take chances -- particularly banks who are very hesitant to fund such an operation.

is anyone interested in the Slowfood movement?

Interested? Yes. Do I think it's the "answer"? Probably not, but it's a good start. Slowfood has become almost too dogmatic, ignoring some of the realities of today's society. However, its underlying principles for a strong foundation. Ultimately, we, the consumers who "get it" and the professionals need to be more pro-active. The reason I stood at the farmers market hawking heirloom tomatoes for this particular vendor was because I knew that it was in my best interest for them to sell more tomatoes -- that way, they'd be more likely to stay in business and I could eat better tomatoes. We can all assume different levels of responsibility in this effort. Otherwise, we'll end up with what we deserve.

[soupkitchen]

The last couple posts have been very very interesting and deserve lots of attention. Phlawless I completely relate to your comments. I'll be back to discuss these two enigmas: farmer/chef relationships and why the Raleigh dining scene blows(those who don't suck know who you are).

Soup

[Varmint]

Check out this thread (Click Here!) and the article linked in the first post for a recent discussion about the Raleigh dining scene. I and others have mentioned how disappointed we are with it. You may need to register (free) with the Charlotte Observer to read Kathi's article.

[phlawless]

I don't know how to do all the fancy cut/paste stuff, so forgive my unorganized responses to the comments from previous posts.

I don't agree with you varmint, about Mag Grill's success in Raleigh. For one, the atmosphere sucks. And Raleigh diners equate a certain blingbling with their meal. Ben and Karen aren't terribly interested in an all-over dining experience; they want to have the food transcend all other aspects that most people consider 'important'. Now neither one of them have actually said this to me, but I see where they spend their money on improvements to the restaurant, and very little goes into the dining room. Second, and maybe this is changing, but Raleigh diners have a bit more of a conservative palate, not that the Grill is cutting edge cuisine by any means, but there are a few more risks taken there than Second Empire, or even Vin. I've only been to Fin's once, and it was quite a few years ago, so I can't lump them in. Ben has even done an informal survey of his regulars structured by city: Raleigh/Durham/Chapel Hill, and has seen the way these people order. Most often it's two courses instead of three, and stick to soup/salad, beef entree, and chocolate dessert. They know there is a market here, but they refuse to compromise anything they do.

Anyway, I don't know how much longer I can talk about Ben and Karen. They are great to work for, but I'd like to discuss other things on my day off!

I do agree that Slowfood is not the answer, but to see the effect they have in areas like Iowa gives me hope it could do some good here. I got a response to my email about upcoming events, and there is a dinner at Panzanella this week-end. Maybe I'm ungrateful, but that doesn't excite me very much. I went to a few of their meetings and was disappointed by their focus on olive oils and cheeses, not that those foods don't deserve attention/celebration, but this area isn't known too well for it's olive groves and cheesemakers, with exception to Celebrity, of course. I'm sure they've had many more events than I know of, and probably are more locally focused, I just haven't heard of any, and that's the problem.

[Varmint]

OK, this is now a Magnolia Grill free zone. Plus, we don't want to put you in a difficult situation.

The Raleigh atmosphere sucks because there hasn't been anyone to take the proverbial bull by the horns and make a statement. If no one tries, then it's real easy to say that it's not going to work. I can't think of a single restaurateur who really, truly tried to make a difference here. We might not have a Ninth Street or a Franklin Street, but if you're a destination restaurant where the food -- THE FOOD -- is paramount, then it will work in Raleigh, Durham, Chapel Hill or even Cary.

As far as making a difference, I'm willing to make a go of it. Now, we just need to create a plan.

[phlawless]

Action! I love action! Especially instead of bitching!

It's funny, after writing the above statement I paused for a good forty-five seconds. Like you, Varmint, I'm stumped about how to make a difference, especially since I'm a mere kitchen rat without the funds to inspire true change, or loads of free time to devote to the very animal I loathe. But, and this is a big but, I have some pretty strong convictions that motivate me in many less deserving ventures, and I'd like to stop talking about the problems and move in a more productive direction.

[Fat Guy]

Don't overlook High Point as a potential destination. Located just a few minutes from Greensboro, High Point is the world capital of home furnishings and is therefore the locus of a tremendous amount of business entertaining -- especially during the twice-yearly furniture market. This micro-economy there supports a couple of serious fine-dining restaurants. Chief among them is J. Basul Noble's http://www.noblesrestaurants.com/html/jbasul1.html which has a great space right downtown next to the Radisson and the Atrium furniture mall and seems to do a brisk business all the time. A newer restaurant in that area, not quite as luxe but still serious in terms of craft, is M. Stephens.