Citronelle, Maestro, and ...?

[DonRocks]

I've asked this question to some pretty knowledgable people, and have yet to get a satisfactory answer: Citronelle and Maestro are head-and-shoulders above anything in the DC area, in my opinion. What do people think is third? I'm not much into numbers and rankings, but I actually had someone go so far as to tell me The Prime Rib was probably next in line, and I don't want to believe it.

Though I haven't been to The Inn at Little Washington in several years, I've always thought that place was overrated, and in fact I would have said Obelisk was better five years ago (not anymore).

Marcel's? Man oh man that would be a VERY small bronze medal compared to the gold and silver. Le Relais? I haven't been yet, but I'm hearing gurglings of interest emanating from the peanut gallery. Gerard's Place? Not willing to pay the money to find out, given the spotty meals I had there the last couple times several years back. But, oh baby, when he was at the Ritz in Pentagon City, that was about as good as it gets outside of France. Ben's Chili Bowl? Hmm... Taberna del Alabardero? Perhaps. Laboratorio at Galileo? I suspect that will be the plurality voice.

Edited August 20, 2003 by DonRocks (log)

[John W.]

Rocks, that's a tough call...No car so I haven't made it to Maestro yet. Or Le Relais. So I can't speak to those. And after living in DC for the last 12 years, maybe I should go to see Roberto soon.

I honestly think it's big tie for third...I have had killer meals at Marcel's, Tosca, Taberna (dangerous wine list) etc. Is your criteria based soley on big money rooms, or getting what they try to do exactly right? If the latter is true then I think something like Makoto is definitely up there. Inventive cuisine, or the total package including wine and service? There is too big of a logjam immediately after the Citronelle/Maestro combo (and I am comfortable assuming that Maestro is that good based on what I've read).

This is not a Switzerland, on the fence post, I feel that there are a lot of people deserving of third place, and it's too tough to call right now. I would love to re-visit this in one year, to see how places new and old have matured. There's alot going on in DC that's (hopefully) raising the bar, so we can finally rid ourselves of that damn steakhouse label.

What's your vote, Rocks?

[DonRocks]

Is your criteria based soley on big money rooms, or getting what they try to do exactly right? If the latter is true then I think something like Makoto is definitely up there. Inventive cuisine, or the total package including wine and service? ... What's your vote, Rocks?

I can't vote without (re-)visiting some of the places on my list. (Well, I could, but it wouldn't have much substance). Even within the realm of my own experience, I don't really have a good answer.

I've been to Makoto probably twenty times over the years, and have always recommended it to people as a great dining experience. I think the best sushi/sashimi I've had in DC comes from Makoto (Sushi-Ko and Kaz are more inventive but not as good). But inevitably, the main grilled meat course is so boring its painful, and the soba course which follows is always the same and not special. The dessert is usually a plum shaved ice, and the drink list is awful - the cold, unfiltered sake being an expensive exception. Their small early courses are the most fascinating to me, and I love Makoto, but bottom line: this place can't be considered as a contender. I had a Japanese meal about twelve years ago in Maui that was as good as anything I've ever eaten - it was called Kincha and was at the Grand Wailea resort, and at the time this place was surely the most expensive restaurant in the country: three set menus were $150, $250 and $500 just for the food (bear in mind this is in the early 90s!), served in a tatami room with one waitress for two people - the $500 menu got you the chef out on your own private deck. So I've been to the mountaintop and if this place were here ... but, alas, alack, that food simply doesn't transport across the continent very well.

[John W.]

Man; simply grilled stuff Japanese style can be mind-blowing. My ex is from Tokyo and traveled there a decent bit, so I either got used to it, developed an appreciation for it or just didn't have it properly in the states. But I always liked Makoto. And you have to drink sake with that stuff. Not much else (except maybe the Burgundy-umami combo) works. But I doubt they will let you cart in your Mazis-Chambertin as they won't let you drink tap water.

I think you and I should take it upon ourselves to embark on a journey that decides that third place.

[Mark Sommelier]

According to the new Zagat national restaurant survey, the food at the Inn at Little Washington is better than any place around here (29 for them, 27 points for Citronelle and Maestro).

[DonRocks]

According to the new Zagat national restaurant survey, the food at the Inn at Little Washington is better than any place around here (29 for them, 27 points for Citronelle and Maestro).

Maybe it's gotten better. So are these guys still trying to buy up the entire town and make their own little Disneyland?

[Steve Klc]

Zagat? How 'bout Gourmet magazine?

The October 2000 Gourmet ranked DC Coast as the top spot in DC.

The 2001 Gourmet had the Inn at #12 nationally, tops in DC and few spots ahead of Citronelle. (Of course, they also ranked Chez Panisse #1 overall.)

Gourmet hedged their bets in 2002 by not ranking top restaurants locally or nationally. In DC, Top for "business" was Citronelle, Top for "Buzz" was Palena, Top for "personal favorite"--which in their language meant "where we'd choose to eat if we had just one night to spend in that city"--was the Inn.

Wonder what 2003 will bring?

[vengroff]

Laboratorio always comes up in discussions like this. One of these days I have to get over there. Cafe 15 has got to be considered a contender.

As far as I@LW goes, I think once you get up to a Zagat 29, you pretty much stay there as long as you stay open for business. You get a lot of tourists coming through who don't have a lot of experience with some of the really excellent places that are getting the 23's and 24's. If it's a once a year $600 blowout, it better be good, so they write back to Zagat and give it a 29 or 30.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and pull out a name that hasn't come up yet as my #3: Cafe Atlantico. It's not aspiring to be the kind of room that Maestro and Citronelle are, but the creativity is fantastic, especially at Brunch.

[Steve Klc]

I think in order to do that meaningfully, Darren, have to go back to DonRocks original post, which began with him saying "Citronelle and Maestro are head-and-shoulders above anything in the DC area" and asking what's third?

He's vague about the terms and criteria but I'm guessing he means haute: spare no expense, overall fine dining experience in an elegant, luxurious setting with a deep, expensive list. "Value" probably is not a criteria, creativity and brilliance of the chef or food outside of a luxe setting is probably not a criteria. Cafe is, well, a "cafe"--leaving aside Jose's brilliance on display there with someone as talented as Kats heading up the kitchen--their list wouldn't hold up to Old World wine scrutiny and neither would the decor. Cafe isn't physically appointed well enough to stretch into that haute-luxe category.

The likely contenders for third for him are Cafe 15, Le Relais, Laboratorio, the Inn. (Maybe Elysium if he posed this question back when Gian Piero was cooking there.)

Now, personally, I'd put Jose and his dishes--especially that deconstructed clam chowder dish--which we did once in NYC together like 2 years ago--up against the most touching dishes I've ever had--and foodwise I've been touched by many chefs, Ducasse, Richard, Gagnaire, Conticini, etc, each in their own way. A version of that clam dish is now on the new upstairs Cafe minibar "omakase." Yes, there's the creative dim sum brunch, which is an incredible dining value, as well. Yes, it would be very tough, probably impossible to choose meaningfully between Fabio, Michel and Jose as far as creativity and excellence of cuisine is concerned. But no, for the sake of what I sense DonRocks wants to know--Cafe isn't in the same "class" and wouldn't be a contender for his "third" spot.

[Mark Sommelier]

Zagat?  How 'bout Gourmet magazine?

The October 2000 Gourmet ranked DC Coast as the top spot in DC.

The 2001 Gourmet had the Inn at #12 nationally, tops in DC and few spots ahead of Citronelle.  (Of course, they also ranked Chez Panisse #1 overall.)

Gourmet hedged their bets in 2002 by not ranking top restaurants locally or nationally.  In DC, Top for "business" was Citronelle, Top for "Buzz" was Palena, Top for "personal favorite"--which in their language meant "where we'd choose to eat if we had just one night to spend in that city"--was the Inn.

Wonder what 2003 will bring?

As far as Zagat's credibility goes, looking through this new national edition, as I recall, some joint in Tampa or Orlando that seats 1,000 people scored a 28 or 29 for food, too. Must be different criteria for different parts of the country.

[Rail Paul]

As far as Zagat's credibility goes, looking through this new national edition, as I recall, some joint in Tampa or Orlando that seats 1,000 people scored a 28 or 29 for food, too. Must be different criteria for different parts of the country.

We've had an ongoing thread on the NJ boards on this very topic. Several well ranked restaurants disappeared from the NJ Zagat when a new editor took over.

Other fine places, with well reviewed offerings, deep wine cellars, and customers who nominated them, still aren't listed. An American Grill in Randolph is a good example of the latter.

Zagat's NJ editor, Andrea Clurfeld, has declined to respond to invitations to discuss the Zagat criteria on eG, which leaves us guessing

Edited August 20, 2003 by Rail Paul (log)

[Alex]

As far as Zagat's credibility goes, looking through this new national edition, as I recall, some joint in Tampa or Orlando that seats 1,000 people scored a 28 or 29 for food, too. Must be different criteria for different parts of the country.

I haven't seen the new national edition yet, but I suspect you're referring to Bern's in Tampa, one of the best steak houses in the country. It has an immense wine list and perfect steaks. (See David Rosengarten's new book.)

Maybe it isn't quite 3rd in DC, but does anyone have any thoughts about Yanyu?

[Mark Sommelier]

As far as Zagat's credibility goes, looking through this new national edition, as I recall, some joint in Tampa or Orlando that seats 1,000 people scored a 28 or 29 for food, too. Must be different criteria for different parts of the country.

I haven't seen the new national edition yet, but I suspect you're referring to Bern's in Tampa, one of the best steak houses in the country. It has an immense wine list and perfect steaks. (See David Rosengarten's new book.)

Maybe it isn't quite 3rd in DC, but does anyone have any thoughts about Yanyu?

I don't think it was Bern's. I'll have to go back and look it up. I love Yanyu. The duck is pricey but superb. Lots of really great appetizers. Plus, Jesse Yan is a real sweetheart.

Edited August 20, 2003 by Mark Sommelier (log)

[DonRocks]

He's vague about the terms and criteria but I'm guessing he means haute:  spare no expense, overall fine dining experience in an elegant, luxurious setting with a deep, expensive list.  "Value" probably is not a criteria, creativity and brilliance of the chef or food outside of a luxe setting is probably not a criteria.  ... But no, for the sake of what I sense DonRocks wants to know--Cafe isn't in the same "class" and wouldn't be a contender for his "third" spot.

Hello Steve, and welcome to egullet.com.

Was it my glowing praise of 2 Amys (see pizza thread) or my thinly veiled criticism of The Inn at Little Washington which led you to your assumptions about me? Oh, I got it: it was because I touted that $18 Touraine Rosé at Firefly.

Formality: There is good formal and bad formal, good informal and bad informal, formality being a style and not a plus or minus. Formality often costs money, and with that cost often comes a certain foie-grasness to the meal, but formality in and of itself neither adds to nor detracts from my assessment of a restaurant.

Wine: Overpriced: bad. Depth x Breadth: good.

Creativity: All other things equal, a plus, but never at the expense of execution.

The best restaurant in Northern Virginia: Maestro

The best restaurant in Maine: Joe's Lobster Pound

I have, in fact, heard some chatter about Café Atlantico of late, and am looking forward to trying it again. I didn't think to include it on my list, but wouldn't rule it out either. Are you referring to the "regular" Café Atlantico, the minibar, or would you not distinguish between the two?

Come say hello if you see me (I'll be the fat, balding middle-aged guy in the gray poly-wool suit, snapping my fingers at the waitstaff, bitchin' about the cost of my Martini, and itchin' to hurry up and finish my meal so I can get outside and smoke my stogie. But you already knew that).

Cheers,

Rocks.

[Steve Klc]

Welcome to eGullet right back at you Rocks. This is a great place--I may just hang out here more often!

Before we get down to business, though: Joe's Lobster Pound better than Hugo's? Not that I've been to Joe's, but my meal at Hugo's last weekend was superb. Based on one meal, it might your solid third spot if somehow transportable to DC. Off-topic, though.

Well, at least I couched my assumptions with language like "guessing" "probably" and "likely," right? On the net that counts as restrained, hesitant and not rushing to judgement. I also did not connect your reviews on other threads--and took up merely what you offered in that first post by way of comparison. Maestro and Citronelle: I assumed creative cooking, very high check average, formal service, elegant surroundings, deep lists Euro-heavy. That's simplistic but correct, no? And I also promise to read closer next time, ok? (Was that "don't take this the wrong way--tour bus" crack yours?)

Now that you've spelled out more of your criteria--I think you'd probably have to weight "value" and "creativity" a little higher as categories or criteria to legitimately include what Jose has created at Cafe, i.e. all other things aren't equal. Within Cafe certainly the minibar omakase and the dim sum would have the best chance of scoring high on your scale, even unmodifed. Neither of these are Jose's consummate statement. They're his statement right now, incredible palate interest, "value" and "creativity" at that price point and he'll no doubt surpass it.

Without that concession--I suspect there's not a clear third. How I'd rank them for you based on meals in the last year: after 3 meals at Cafe 15, it probably comes the closest--it has the best pastry chef of the bunch (a big plus) but the cooking, while impeccably executed is still more classic and refined than creative--possibly not creative enough. Then after maybe 5 meals at Le Relais--their desserts underwhelm for this level, the cooking is somewhat more creative, though less impeccably executed, than Cafe 15. We really like the fixed price deal in the bar. The Inn has seemed too conservative and too expensive for a long time though might score the points for consistency and service--I think even Inn fans are finally realizing this. (No recent meals.) And I've yet to experience the Laboratorio treatment--only regular Galileo before their very good pastry chef moved on--so that's the wildcard, perhaps, for you. Many others have and wax poetic, though.

I also think your comment about formality being a style could be the basis of a good long discussion.

[tjaehnigen]

For me, so far, I'd say it was Laboratorio at present.

But, having just dined at Palena for the first time.... Man, it was about the best, most seasonal dining experience I've ever had. It was superb.

And I haven't been to Maestro yet. Mostly since I can't bring my own wine (since they're in Virginia...).

[jparrott]

And I've yet to experience the Laboratorio treatment--so that's the wildcard, perhaps, for you.

Well, this sure sounds like an eGullet outing opportunity.

Jake

PS Hey Don, good to see you in this corner of the cyberworld.

[Joe H]

There are three restaurants which are heads and shoulders above all others in the D. C. area. Maestro, Citronelle and, of course, Laboratorio. With all due respect to Cafe Atlantico and Zaytinya Roberto Donna is a national treasure and the equal of any Italian chef on earth. The three and one half hour experience in his 28 seat dining room is one of the best anywhere especially if you are fortunate to have table 7 which is only about six or seven feet from where he stands. The chef's table at Citronelle and the tables in the front of the room at Maestro are the equal but totally different in style. Maestro, for that matter, may be the very equal of Le Calandre in Rubano which just earned its third star. Still, Laboratorio-especially in October-has much in common with Guido before it's recent move. Totally different from Maestro and Citronelle, yet an experience as individual and wonderful as any on earth. I mention both of these great Italian restaurants because Ithink we are extremely fortunate to have the two best Italian restaurants in America here in Washington. I am also convinced that they are the equal of two of Italy's best.

For those who read this try Roberto's truffle menu in Laboratorio in October. It is as good as Alba only the smell is within the room not out on the street as there.

[dave88]

for all you makoto fans: the place upstairs i wrote about months ago (with impatient, frustrated sushi chef obviously connected to makoto) has abandoned the sushi route and taken the yakitori fork/skewer toward oblivion much the same as the sushi place. since they do not and can not and will not display a business sign, could someone more qualified (ie one who writes for the washingtonian or georgetown current) please review this place when it [re]opens?? or do i need to send in my annual dues?

if makoto is too XXXX, then the place upstairs is just right.

[Schneier]

The Inn at Little Washington should be #1 on your list, but it only counts as "in the DC area" if you're flying in. Little Washington, VA is a long drive.

Closer to home, I vote for Laboratorio as #3.

Bruce

[vengroff]

There are three restaurants which are heads and shoulders above all others in the D. C. area.  Maestro, Citronelle and, of course, Laboratorio.  With all due respect to Cafe Atlantico and Zaytinya Roberto Donna is a national treasure and the equal of any Italian chef on earth.

I have not yet been to Laboratorio. But I have been to some other parts of the Donna empire, and those visits have a lot to do with why I haven't gone to Laboratorio yet. I found them to be sub-par for their price-points and target market. In one case, the Il Radicchio location on Capitol Hill, two of the dishes were inedible. I don't expect him to serve what he does at Laboratario for Il Radicchio prices, but I do expect something above the average of what other places offer for that price. Seeing how Donna lets these places founder bothers me a lot.

There are two possibilities: one is that he is a great chef de cuisine but a sub-par manager who doesn't care if his name is associated with some really terrible food; the other is that his work is below standard at all price levels. Your comments and those of others, lead me to believe the former. But my lingering doubts about the latter possibility have kept me from visiting.

I would certainly appreciate further input on the matter.

[Joe H]

Laboratorio has nothing in common with any of his other restaurants not even Galileo which you walk through to get to it. The recipes are different as are the raw ingredients while everything is personally supervised and prepared by Roberto. Table #7 is literally a chef's table.

I strongly dsagree with the comments about The Inn at Little Washington. I believe it is the most over rated restaurant that I have experienced in years. http://www.chowhound.com/midatlantic/board...ages/22272.html

This is the link to a lengthy post I had on Chowhound about a recent visit to The Inn. I stand by my comments.

[Joe H]

http://www.chowhound.com/midatlantic/board...ages/19279.html

This is the link to another lengthy post that I had about Laboratorio. Coincidentally my wife and I and another couple had dinner there again last night, our fourth visit this year. Ten days ago I had dinner at a Michelin one star in Bologna (Battebecco). There was no comparison.

[vengroff]

Laboratorio has nothing in common with any of his other restaurants not even Galileo which you walk through to get to it.  The recipes are different as are the raw ingredients while everything is personally supervised and prepared by Roberto.  Table #7 is literally a chef's table.

Thanks, Joe. I'll try not to say much more until I try Laboratorio once and for all. But just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that the recipes or ingredients are the same as his other places. Instead, I'm merely suggesting that if he is not at the top of his game at lower price levels, it makes me wonder whether he is at the top price level. That's why I have been more interested in, and have gone to, Maestro and Citronelle first.

By way of analogy, suppose that based on my driving experience I thought Chevrolet cars were not a good value in their price range as compared to Hondas. Suppose that I also found Buicks to be inferior to Lincolns. Then given the choice between a Cadillac (part of the same GM empire as Chevy and Buick) and a similarly priced BMW, my previous experience with GM might cause me to turn away from the Cadillac and towards the BMW. That's the position I find myself in with Donna.

I'm looking forward to finding out that my suspicions are misguided.

[Joe H]

In France you can buy frozen food from Robuchon, Alain Ducasse and several others. Robuchon's name seems to be on everything sort of like Emeril here. Of course Rick Bayless, Bobby Flay, Charlie

Trotter, Wolfgang Puck and others have their own lines of condiments and foods nows. Even the chefs of El Bulli and Le Calandre (mentioned above) have opened second locations (totally different in style, concept and qulaity). Roberto over the years has tried many levels. and many concepts. Today he has returned to his "roots" if you will, cooking in his own small exhibition kitchen as well as holding classes there. He clearly enjoys this, clearly enjoys when diners participate in the meal. He even looks at facial expressions when diners take their first bite. It is extraordinary to find a restaurant like this with a man of his talent. I cannot believe he will do this for many more years since, after all, it IS a lot of work and at some point his interest I would expect to lessen. But for today, for Washington, we are extremely fortunate. This will not last. Anyone reading this should go while he is still doing it. Just as Michel Richard and Fabio at Maestro may move on so may Roberto-or, at the least, leave his exhibition kitchen. Laboratorio is only open several days a week. Table seven is already very difficult to get. But you should try. It is as if he is cooking for you personally.