Spain VS Italy

[Loris]

I'm coming from a weekend in Spain, Santiago de Compostela. I didn't get very much impressed from the wines of this region. I've been in four different little restaurants and had a lunch in a local farm. I drank:

- at the restaurant many bottles are served without label

- it's a tradition to drink in milk cups

- I drank a red wine (Crianza) with poor alcohol, maybe 9%

- I drank two different Crianza Rioja with the same powerful taste but one with good bouquet and a bottle with a poor one, same vintage, same winery, same restaurant

Spain VS Italy - What is the best wine?

[Craig Camp]

As much have the wines of Spain have improved, they just can't compete with the diversity and quantity of great Italian wine. Rioja, Ribera del Duero, Priorat, Albarino and others have great wines of world class quality, but the rest of Spain is just waking up. Many Spanish regions are just too hot and dry. Only the future will tell.

[Echezeaux]

Spain has long been known to bargain hunters as fertile ground for good wines.

Some sleepy regions are starting to wake up and produce some exceptional wines--the Toro region, por ejemplo.

The Rueda area is now producing a number of excellent white wines...Navarra, long famous for its pink rosado wines, now produces a range of wonderful varieties, including Gewurztraminer!

There are many "world class" wines coming from Spain.

As far as comparisons with Italy goes:

Spain makes the best Spanish wines...Italy makes fine Italian wines. With a bit of homework, one can find great wines in both countries.

[tjaehnigen]

The 2000 Numanthia Toro being one of those exceptional Spanish wines....

[Carema]

This is a tough "vs" question due to the extreme differences in climatical (and is that truly the adjective) variance between Spain & Italy. Italy, in its North and nothern Central expressions is famous for acidity, Spain not so much. The grape varieties and vagueries in Italy far outnumber those of Spain, and Spain at the present moment is much more flexible in DOC laws than Italy has been in the past. In both countries I think there is tremendous value to be found but ultimately I agree with Echezeaux; research is necessary. Spain is beginning to find its international footing, Italy has been there for a bit. In Rioja at one time, wine was bottled upon demand. Wine could sit in these casks for years until needed (or wanted) and come out in this slightly oxidized, meaty state. Kind of wonderful. But the barrique has made it over there and the international styles have taken hold. We shall have to watch Spain and see. From what I am tasting, limited as that is, it is all over the boards.

[davidbdesilva]

I may be being a bit too harsh, but personally I don't think there's much of a comparison. I believe that Spain has the most acres planted in all the world (?) but I have been less than impressed with what I've had (quantity over quality? I know I know that USED to be Italy's problem as well). Italy, on the other hand, has the most varieties of wine in the world and, in my opinion, the most interesting and unique wines. From whites to reds, sweet to dry, North to South, Italy makes the best wines in the world, period. I think the question ought rather to be: who makes the best wines in the world, Italy or France? I still vote for Italy.

[Sparkitus]

This is a good one. First of all, you were in Galicia. Did you drink any Albarino (white)? It is not a red wine area, really, but the whites can be good to really good, depending on the producer. There is also a white wine called Godello which is quite good drinking, and a fantastic albeit rare little item called Txakoli de Gueteria from the Basque region. You were eating in what sounds like neighborhood joints and little village restaurants (unless I'm wrong), so these places are not likely to carry, much less be concerned with, wines from outside their region (generally speaking). So the Riojas you drank were probably whatever they could lay their hands on. Don't write off Spain until you've eaten and drank wine (grammar check?) in Barcelona, Madrid or the wonderful tapas bars of Haro in the heart of Rioja country.

Personally, I think Spain is far and away the more exciting choice - as an emerging region for wine, that is. Things are happening in Priorat (just granted the second DOC in Spain I believe, the first and only one being Rioja for the longest time), in Ribera del Duero (home of Pesquera and Vega Sicilia), and a number of other regions (like Navarra) that are very high-quality and yet remain relative bargains.

Italy is pretty well-established by now, although most consumers only think of Chianti or Pinot Grigio. And even though there is some pretty exciting experimentation going on in Tuscany (the Maremma coast, especially) and on the Adriatic coast as well as in Sicily and the south, that experimentation is more like just riffing on what has gone on before, adding international varietals to the native grapes or "rediscovering" old heirloom grapes from days gone by that make great wine. In Spain, the industry is wakening from a very long, stuporous sleep adn the influx of talent from Bordeaux and elsewhere is going to erupt in the next five to ten years - and the prices will still be far below the super-Tuscans or super-Umbrians.

Spain doesn't have the international reputation that Italy does, nor the comfort factor. It's their own fault because their marketing just sucks. I would close (and I'm sure you're grateful for that at this point) by saying forget your vacation experience (the wine part) and hunt out wines from an importer I trust very much, Fine Estates from Spain based out of Boston. These wines are hand-picked by Jorge Ordonez and while he represents a few very traditional and sturdy houses, the "new" Spanish wines he brings in are nothing short of brilliant, including one I think will turn out to be the Grange Hermitage of Spain (Finca Allende's Calvario).

Rinse out your glass and give Spain another shot! Cheers!

[Elissa]

Here here Spartikus. Can't blame Spain for a less than vigourous exploration of its cellars. Spanish wine may not *all* be exceptional, but what is? Cavas (the $9 Sumarrocca I'll mention again) put Proseccos (in that range and much higher) to shame. Albarinos' flavor and character are more pronounced than many Italian whites' with voices more comedic than subtle. Basque whites aren't trying to be Burgundies or Friuli: here there's more angle but potentially as much breadth.

Riberas can be gorgeously crafted, complex wines that match better with lamb than even Bordeaux. Something magic happened with the 1994 Riojas; I'd put several toe-to-toe with anything from Italy. Rioja is an intersting blend as well: Tempranillo, Graciano, Mazuelo and Garnacha grapes, these last the same Grenache as in the (Southern) Rhone.

Occasionally you miss, it's true. Ordered the 1995 Conde de Valdemar Gran Reserva Rioja the other night, having had many delicious bottles of the 1994 The discussion that preceeded the selection went quite like this thread.

El: Spain doesn't make wines to compete with Italy.

Yo: Surely you jest...

So it was quite embarrassing when I thought the 95 pretty terrible indeed. We left it for the couple whose anniversary it was; she was pregnant and he was drunk, so perhaps enjoyed it. They'd shared glasses of Chassagne with us But to let bad bottles sour one's palate on Spain would be a loss.

FWIW Stephen Tanzer left this in my inbox this morning:

The new issue of the International Wine Cellar features exciting new releases from Spain...No other country is a richer source of great wine values today than Spain. In my recent tastings of more than 500 new releases, the results of which are featured in the just-posted Issue 109 of the International Wine Cellar, I uncovered a host of brisk white wines that are perfect for summer drinking, superb Cavas (the world's best inexpensive sparkling wines) and versatile, food-friendly roses. But best of all are Spain's red wines: everything from satisfying, full-flavored wines available at single-digit price tags to hugely rich, world-class reds, many of them remarkably affordable.

mucho informacion aqui: riojawine.com

Edited July 25, 2003 by lissome (log)

[Auxerrois]

Good Afternoon,

I think that by making a "Vs" comparison we are all missing the true point of wine in the ultimate soul of "terroir", an individual place and moment in time. Over the last couple thousand years farmers in these countries have been planting grapes that are complementary to both there food and there climate, the same goes with their produce and livestock. Regionality, and more important, localility are the real truth behind wine, how those local flavors blend with local wine. A fresh white from the liguarian coast taste best with the local seafood. Albarino from Galacia (Green Spain) is at its peak with the atlantic shellfish. Brunello and Bistecca Fiorentino, Rioja and Roasted Pork, Lambrusco and Parmesan Reggiano, Toro and Manchago, Greco di Bianco (the dessert wine) and nut tarts, Fino Sherry and fresh squid, Barolo and truffles, ect.

The list goes on and on, and these combinations are the ones that make us strive for hedonistic perfection, and in some cases devote our lives to it. And the inspiration they install give us the energy and passion to finding new pairings as international inclinations strech across borders.

To sum up I think they are equal, because it is in thier histories, their cultures, and their climates, in total their world and their experiences are shared though those bottles.

David

PS to Craig Camp

I just ordered my second six-pack of Kurni.

[Bux]

Spain VS Italy - What is the best wine? 

If we're going to go this route, and it's not one I'd recommend because it's a pointless question with a pointless answer in my opinion, but as I said, if you're asking, the question is "Spain vs. Italy - which country makes the better wine?" I think most criteria would place France securely in number one position, for all anyone should care when selecting a bottle of wine.

I'm more surprised the quality of Spanish wines would even become an issue after four meals in a very remote corner of the country, not to mention one known for it's whites. Much like questioning the quality of pinot noir after a weekend in Alsace. I would have expected any interest in wine to lead a visitor to Galica to explore the Albariños, although I've had a few Godellos worth knowing as well.

I think Spain is a fascinating place in terms of wine these days and that's more important than being first, second or third best. Then again so are Italy and France. Hell, I wish I knew more about Austrian wines, but fortunately there are a few restaurant sommeliers who seem to know enough to recommend good bargains on strange lists. Come to think of it, the prize wines at the top are not going to have much effect on my drinking habits anyway. By the way, it's never been established what standards we're using to compare Italy and Spain. Which is best by virtue of making the best wine, having the best average wine, producing the most varied wines, not having the worst wine, or what?

[Sparkitus]

I guess my own bottom line is that this type of discussion, while quite lively and stimulating, is pointless in the end, so I agree with that asessment. Otherwise, I would just add that the Spanish wines that are *widely* available are not always the most interesting ones, and I will include Conde de Valdemar which I've enjoyed many times in the past but gave up on because they were boring, not bad. Like any country in a similar position internationally (Greece comes readily to mind), they have to do first battle with the impression that shitty wines of the past have made on the world market. In Greece's case it's Retsina. In the case of Spain it used to be dirty faded Riojas, and now it's just bland Rioja. So it makes it hard for those willing to experiment to return to such wines while they're missing some real (and afforable as someone mentioned) gems. But I guess going from dirty to bland is a sort of improvement nonetheless, isn't it?

[Loris]

First of all, you were in Galicia. Did you drink any Albarino (white)? It is not a red wine area, really, but the whites can be good to really good, depending on the producer.

Yes I drunk it, It was really good, a good bouquet. The bottle didn't have any label arghhh

Many Spanish regions are just too hot and dry. Only the future will tell.

Galizia is a hilly, sometimes rainy and not very hot region (22°C, July 20th).

I'm sure that Spain produces many good wines but maybe they are a little bit harder to find. I bought few bottles in Madrid airport, I will let you know.

[badthings]

FWIW Stephen Tanzer left this in my inbox this morning:

The new issue of the International Wine Cellar features exciting new releases from Spain...No other country is a richer source of great wine values today than Spain.

Actually, Portugal is the new Spain. Delicious albariños/alvarinhos for half the price of Galicia. And they are starting to make some excellent reds. I would call them international rather than terroir-ific, but I haven't had enough to really judge.

Certainly, at the low end of the market, where I live, Spain is producing a lot of satisfying, drinkable wine, perhaps more than italy (when it comes to reds at least). But this is a matter of preference, and, I suspect, the biases of your local merchants. There is really a shocking weakness in italian wines in my town, whereas I have a Spanish Table down the block.

I do think it unwise to order red from a carafe in Galicia and expect something exciting.

[Carema]

Actually, Portugal is the new Spain. Delicious albariños/alvarinhos for half the price of GaliciaHREF="http://www.tablespan.com/">Spanish Table down the block.

I do think it unwise to order red from a carafe in Galicia and expect something exciting.

There you go. Luis Pato is doing some exciting work in Portugal. His Baga that retails for about 11 bucks kicks butt on every level. I also have found a little wine from Estramadura (Il Cortello) that sells for 8 bucks. We cannot keep it in stock. You live in Seattle, The Spanish Table rocks and if you go up the street to Pike and Western Wines they will order anything for you. I do not know what the deal with Seattle and Italian wines is either. Maybe the acidity is too much. I do not know. Vino Nobile di Montepulciano seems perfect for a rainy day, watching the azaleas stretch out their sloppy hand-sized blooms and feeling sad for no particular reason at all.

[badthings]

Actually, I'm in Berkeley, so no rainy days. There's also a Spanish Table in Santa Fe now.

There are some excellent wine stores here -- which is why it's surprising that they're so weak on Italy. I'm sure if I went to SF I would have better luck, but I'm just so... lazy.

I will seek out the Patos and the Cortello. I had a decent tempranillo from estremadura recently, forgot the name...

EDIT: of course for wines I can't afford, Italy is the place, though there are now plenty of Iberian wines out of my range too.

Edited August 4, 2003 by badthings (log)

[Elissa]

If I were a French wine producer it would not be Australian but Spanish rivals who featured in my nightmares. The Australians are the marketing devils we know; the treasures hidden away in Spain's vineyards, the most extensive in the world, we can so far only guess at.

from a Janis Robinson Wine of the Week

Edited September 3, 2003 by Elissa (log)

[Gerry Dawes]

First off, the characterization of Spain as "too hot" to produce great wines is not to be believed. There are any number of high altitude, old vines, terroir-driven vineyards in the Mediterranean parts of Spain capable of producing excellent wines in such places as Priorato, Montsant, Alicante, and even La Mancha. In the cooler, more temperate Atlantic Ocean-influenced regions of Spain (half the country), there are excellent wines being made in La Rioja, Navarra, Ribera del Duero, Toro, Bierzo and, yes, Galicia, where great Albariños are truly great white wines, some godellos show incredible, terroir-driven potential, and the mencía grape in Ribeira Sacra makes one of the great red wine discoveries of Spain.

As to the characterization of Riojas as "dirty and faded," name them, please. You really cannot judge the wines of any country or region by drinking the lowest common denominator--although some of those can be quite good in Spain--you have to taste some of the best efforts to recognize what a region can really achieve. Low-end Bordeaux is generally not very good wine, there are any number of truly awful, over-priced Burgundies and oceans of German and Italian plonk out there, but you cannot judge those regions or countries by that criteria. In this lineup of posts, I cannot believe the mis-information that is being passed about Spanish wines. "Dirty?" "Bland?" We obviously have not been drinking the same things.

[Gerry Dawes]

I'm coming from a weekend in Spain, Santiago de Compostela. I didn't get very much impressed from the wines of this region. I've been in four different little restaurants and had a lunch in a local farm. I drunk:

- at the restaurant many bottles are served without label

- it's a tradition to drink in milk cups

- I drunk a red wine (Crianza) with poor alcool, maybe 9%

- I drunk two different Crianza Rioja with the same powerful taste but one with good bouquet and a bottle with a poor one, same vintage, same winery, same restaurant

Spain VS Italy - What is the best wine? 

"Without a label."

Obviously the house wine, perhaps made by the owner or a relative or bought in bulk from a co-op and bottled.

"Milk cups."

It is a tradition in Galicia to drink some wines in tipico places from those little saucer-like vessels, from which they also drink orujo, Galician grappa. There are back-country tipicio restaurants in Cataluña, where groups of friends still drink from a needle-nosed porró and, at fiestas in La Rioja and Navarra (and in many other places), people still take botas to the bullfights, but these are folk customs and not indicative of the state of modern Spanish wine.

"I drunk (sic) a red wine (Crianza) with poor alcool, maybe 9%."

Unless it was watered down, it did not have 9% alcohol. There is no region in Spain that I know that would allow a crianza wine with alcohol that low. It was probably at least 12-12.5%.

"I drunk two different Crianza Rioja with the same powerful taste but one with good bouquet and a bottle with a poor one, same vintage, same winery, same restaurant"

Same wine? Was one a reserva and the other a crianza? Hard to tell from your post. If it was exactly the same wine, one bottle could have been stored in too warm a place, the other kept in a cooler spot. In really inexpensive places and many that cater to tourists, restaurants all over the world often buy wines at the lowest price possible, which includes closeouts. Who knows what these wines were?

[Gerry Dawes]

As much have the wines of Spain have improved, they just can't compete with the diversity and quantity of great Italian wine. Rioja, Ribera del Duero, Priorat, Albarino have great wines of world class quality, but the rest of Spain is just waking up. Many Spanish regions are just too hot and dry. Only the future will tell.

Craig, could you back up and elaborate on this whole paragraph? And, by the way, many regions in Calfornia are "just too hot and dry." They just irrigate.

[Gerry Dawes]

"In Spain, the industry is wakening from a very long, stuporous sleep adn the influx of talent from Bordeaux and elsewhere is going to erupt in the next five to ten years - and the prices will still be far below the super-Tuscans or super-Umbrians."

As a winemaking nation, Spain has been "awake" for well over a decade. What influx of talent from Bordeaux and elsewhere? A lot of top Spanish winemakers (and many Californians) have done their stages in Bordeaux, that's for sure, and Miguel Torres worked in Burgundy in the 1970s, but it is not now uncommon to see Europeans working under Spanish winemakers to learn from them.

As far as prices go, some L'Ermita vintages tip the scales at about $300 and Pingus has gone for as much as $495. There are a number of others in the $90 to $150 range.

[Bill Klapp]

I am probably with Bux on this one, in that I regularly drink and enjoy wines from both countries. I do not think that we have yet seen the best wines that Spain will produce. I suppose that I believe that there are very few, if any, Spanish wines prepared to go toe to toe with the best that Bordeaux, Burgundy, Barolo and Barbaresco have to offer, notwithstanding the likes of Vega Sicilia, Pingus, L'Ermita and a few others. At the high end of the market, there is the risk that we will see more "internationally styled" wines using indigenous grapes. Not necessarily a bad thing from a marketing perspective, but destined to produce wines for the same bin as the California cult Cabs, Australia's top-end Shirazes and most Supertuscans: delicious, but too expensive for what they are, and not certain to age well. However, one cannot and should not overlook the rather dramatic developments in Spain in the past decade. I am far more impressed with the lower-priced garnacha-based wines which often give Chateauneuf-du-Pape a run for its money. Spain has emerged as a quality/price ratio leader in recent years, and I think it has done an admirable marketing job. Italy has just as many excellent quality everyday wines, to be sure, but I do not believe that the best are marketed all that well outside of Italy, as the focus seems always to be on Barolo, Barbaresco, Brunello, the Supertuscans and the cult wines of Umbria. By the same token, like those in Spain, Italian winemakers are aggressively adopting new techniques, which will continue to pay dividends in the future. Both countries are on similar tracks as far as "waking up" goes, and to my mind, both well ahead of the French in that regard. For me, France makes both the best and the worst wines on earth, and I do not have the same degree of confidence that that the coming generations of French standardbearers will get the job done right.

[Craig Camp]

First off, the characterization of Spain as "too hot" to produce great wines is not to be believed.  There are any number of high altitude, old vines, terroir-driven vineyards in the Mediterranean parts of Spain capable of producing excellent wines in such places as Priorato, Montsant, Alicante, and even La Mancha.  In the cooler, more temperate Atlantic Ocean-influenced regions of Spain (half the country), there are excellent wines being made in La Rioja, Navarra, Ribera del Duero, Toro, Bierzo and, yes, Galicia, where great Albariños are truly great white wines, some godellos show incredible, terroir-driven potential, and the mencía grape in Ribeira Sacra makes one of the great red wine discoveries of Spain. 

As to the characterization of Riojas as "dirty and faded," name them, please.  You really cannot judge the wines of any country or region by drinking the lowest common denominator--although some of those can be quite good in Spain--you have to taste some of the best efforts to recognize what a region can really achieve.  Low-end Bordeaux is generally not very good wine, there are any number of truly awful, over-priced Burgundies and oceans of German and Italian plonk out there, but you cannot judge those regions or countries by that criteria. In this lineup of posts, I cannot believe the mis-information that is being passed about Spanish wines.   "Dirty?" "Bland?"  We obviously have not been "drunking" the same things.

Gerry I think you protest too much. As you read through even this thread you find that everyone here (including myself) are avid fans of Spanish wine. The excellent wines produced from regions you mention are admired by all. My reference to 'many' regions being to hot does not refer to all or even most of the regions - just many of them. No one is judging the Spanish wine industry on the wine Loris tasted, but as you note there is plenty of plonk made in all wine countries - Spain included. While there are great Rioja wines there are also a lot of lousy ones - just like there are a lot of lousy Chiantis or Bordeaux.

Spain had a competitive disadvantage against Italy because the Franco period held back all aspects of Spanish culture and business. However, Spain is not getting so much attention just because it is in some sort of wine producers affirmative action program, but because it producing great wines. It is not reasonable to only look at the positive attributes of Spanish wine but the blemishes too. Spanish wine can handle the hot seat just fine.

[Craig Camp]

As much have the wines of Spain have improved, they just can't compete with the diversity and quantity of great Italian wine. Rioja, Ribera del Duero, Priorat, Albarino have great wines of world class quality, but the rest of Spain is just waking up. Many Spanish regions are just too hot and dry. Only the future will tell.

Craig, could you back up and elaborate on this whole paragraph? And, by the way, many regions in Calfornia are "just too hot and dry." They just irrigate.

As I mentioned before I agree with your comment that most regions are not too hot, but I still stand my mine that many are and I would say the same for many of the California vineyards you refer to. In California the best wines are not coming from Region 4 or 5 zones but in Region 3 and 2 - warm, but moderate climates. Wines with high alcohol and the lower acidity from too much heat just don't carry their weight well. Those fat, chunky, out-of-balance, overextracted 15%+ alcohol old vine zins prove this point all to well.

For my palate Priorat and Sicilia take things about as far as I can go on the power side of wine and often find they can go over the top when it comes to the concept of matching wine and food. To take an example from Italy the wildly over-popular (IMO) Primitivo is liked more for the amount of flavor it delivers than for the quality of those flavors.

Fortunately for us Spain has many regions that do not suffer from climates that are too hot. I don't want people taking their viewpoint on Italian wine only from Puglia anymore than you want people to take their image of Spanish wine from La Mancha.

To sum up a bit I would never dream to claim that the best Spanish wines in all price categories are not on par with Italian wines. What I would argue is that Spain and Italy are equals quality-wise, but not in the amount and variety of quality wines produced, but this is certainly an area where Spain is rapidly closing the gap.

The 2003 Veronelli Guida Oro rates 1,911 producers and 8,485 wines. The 2003 Gambero Rosso Vini d'Italia rates 1,884 producers and 13,336 wines. Guides including this vast number of quality wines and producers can only be produced in Italy. Keep in mind these guides do not review the vast ocean of mass produced grocery store and cooperative brands which accounts for the majority of Italian production and these wines that are reviewed have some (even if it is small) desire to produce quality wine. These wines are produced from dozens of indigenous varieties in addition to the well established French imports. No country produces world class wine from a broader range of vines.

So this is Italy's only edge over Spain - quantity of quality not quality itself.

[Craig Camp]

"In Spain, the industry is wakening from a very long, stuporous sleep and the influx of talent from Bordeaux and elsewhere is going to erupt in the next five to ten years - and the prices will still be far below the super-Tuscans or super-Umbrians."

As a winemaking nation, Spain has been "awake" for well over a decade. 

Here I think you support Bill's point not yours. Ten vintages is nothing in the learning curve of making wine. You only get to do it once a year so that is only ten trial and error runs. Italy woke up from its long sleep in the 1970's and now over 30 years later is still going through huge growing pains. Spain must go through the same process. There is no shortcut to making great wine.