Foliage

[Marlyn4k]

Hi

We're huge fans of Foliage and Chris Staines' cooking. What a terrible shame that Jay Rayner got the hump! (I just bought his book as well).

We interviewed Chris last week (along with Director of Comms for Mandarin) and am in the process of transcribing the tape...will post it here when done and approved.

[Basildog]

I think it's a matter of small niggles amounting to a big one.It's a strange thing , but if a restaurant has certin rules (time of booking , credit card numbers, cancellations fees , dress code etc etc) then they are putting pressure on themselves to perform, because if they don't, then the guest is going to remember the niggles.I would think that if Jay had not had a service problem, the other points would not have been mentioned.

[Suzi Edwards]

i felt that jay's review had the air of "buyer beware" to it. i guess people are prepared for the stuff that might go wrong before they tip now.

i'm still annoyed he hasn't reviewed roka though, i thought my 10 quid was safe.

[jayrayner]

Perhaps if I feel the need to explain my review, it didn't do it's job. Certainly posting a reply here is a great displacement activity from writing the next one.

BAsildog has got it: pile all that stuff on and you raise the bar. It wasn't just the 15 minute thing or the credit card thing (Although those combined with the empty tables do mount up); it was the hassle level of the whole experience. And it raised this simple issue with me about how much of a pain in the arse etaing out at this level can be. And if that's what's going through my head while I'm sitting there eating the food then that, I decided, was what I ought to write about: the experience of the restaurant.

I will confess, as I pretty much said in the piece, it pained me to do so. David Nicholls, Exec chef at the hotel, is superb. One of those names not many people outside of the business know but should. I went because he said his boy was on top form (And food wise, he is); it was everything else that riled me. Which I hope was what my review said.

Now, time to go and take down the Gaucho Grill. Carpaccio ceviche anyone?

[Andy Lynes]

Jay, I understood your general point, but I was making a more specific and admittedly less important one which no one has as yet addressed - does anyone really want to eat at 15 minutes past or to the hour?

[jayrayner]

Once I've put my youngest to bed (my task on an evening like this) the earliest I can get out of the house is 7.30pm. It takes me 45 minutes to get to town. I want to sit down to dinner the moment I'm ready to do so. So that's 8.15 then.

All this detail is irrelevant of course. The point I was making is that when the bill heads comfortably towards two ton you should be able to say I want a table for 8.05 or 8.10 or for any time I bloody well please and they should just say 'how many for?'

So yeah, sometimes I want to eat at a quarter past the hour and why shouldn't I?

[dallardice]

Yes, I can think of several instances where a xx15 or xx45 booking would be relevant. Pre- or post- theatre, perhaps. When one member of the party is arriving by train at xx55. After a meeting which ends at xx00. OK, none of these is really critical and in most cases I'd be happy to wait until the next half-hour if a restaurant suggested it.

In fact, in my experience it's not unusual for me to ask for, say, 8pm and be offered 8.15 because the restaurant doesn't want too many people showing up at once. But I'd share Jay's mystification at them managing arrival times when a restaurant isn't busy.

So yes, I can understand asking for a xx15 booking. In most cases it wouldn't bother me if they suggested xx30 instead. But I too would be surprised to find an empty restaurant after such a conversation.

[Andy Lynes]

The point I was making is that when the bill heads comfortably towards two ton you should be able to say I want a table for 8.05 or 8.10 or for any time I bloody well please and they should just say 'how many for?'

But the more a bill heads towards the £200.00 mark, the less likely you are to get that 8.05pm resevation - would Ramsay at RHR stand for it? (Although as a reportedly fully booked restaurant they have more of an arguement to refuse it I suppose.)

[jayrayner]

At which point I would love to see some Americans chip in with their views on this service issue.

[Scott]

Once I've put my youngest to bed (my task on an evening like this) the earliest I can get out of the house is 7.30pm. It takes me 45 minutes to get to town. I want to sit down to dinner the moment I'm ready to do so. So that's 8.15 then.

All this detail is irrelevant of course. The point I was making is that when the bill heads comfortably towards two ton you should be able to say I want a table for 8.05 or 8.10 or for any time I bloody well please and they should just say 'how many for?'

So yeah, sometimes I want to eat at a quarter past the hour and why shouldn't I?

Agreed.

though when I have been I have never needed a credit card or had a 15 minute stipulation like you faced. I have also had very good and some dodgy service.

the food is cracking though.

[SamanthaF]

Not taking bookings for 00.15 or 00.45 is daft.

Out of interest, how many choices are there per course on the lunch deal? There use to be 8-10 per course, but this then dropped to 3.

[Conor]

I couldn't agrre with Jay more, if you are paying this kind of money, then you should get in reason what you want.

Obviously bookings are staggered to ease the pressure on the kitchen and service staff to maintain standards, but this can be controlled whether the booking is on the hour or 27 miutes past it. I do truly feel in restaurants that the more you pay the more complicated it can get and its something i try to elimate as much as possible.

As far as the credit card number, i'm afraid i agree with the restaurant. But not for the resons mentioned. Unfortunately there are people in London who don't honour their reservations, or book three tables at different restaurants and decide on the night which one to go to. By asking for a credit card, it is unlikely that a diner will not turn up. Also, while Foliage was not full that night, they cannot predict that in advance when they are taking the reservations so they must stick to one policy. I think that by asking for a cc number, i use it as a deterrent, and would very rarely charge a cancellation fee because at the end of the day, if you chage £25 cxl fee pp, its's pretty likely you won't see those people again.

[Andy Lynes]

If I rang a restaurant and asked for a 7.15pm booking and the reply was, we can do 7.30pm I would say, fine, whatever. If, as has happened on more than one occasion I asked for a 8.00pm reservation and they said they could only do 7.30pm, I would also say fine, whatever. Its generally not an issue for me.

Perhaps I'm not demanding enough, but I'd put quarter past and quarter to the hour reservations in the same catagory as ordering off menu, which is something else I'm simply not interested in doing.

[tony h]

what's to stop you turning up 15 min late/early anyway? I generally just aim to their at the approx time - never once has this caused a problem. How on earth are you supposed to get anywhere in london on time anyway. whole thing's daft.

anyway - here's my foliage bit. I turned up at the front desk and asked for foe-le-adg. horror on front desk git's face - you mean faw-ley-aj. kind of takes you appetite away.

[fisherman]

i cant believe you're giving jay a hard time over the 8.15 thing, no matter where i'm eating, i want to eat when i want to, if someone wants a table for 8.15 then so be it. why is 8 or 8.30 anymore acceptable than 8.15?

i enjoyed reading the review and it reminded me a few places i've eaten lately, and certainly put me off dining there.

[Andy Lynes]

i cant believe you're giving jay a hard time over the 8.15 thing

The intention isn't to give Jay a hard time, simply to establish if anyone actually ever wants or needs a reservation other than on the hour or the half hour. I'd be interested to know if anyone can recall a specific, recent (say in the last 3 months) example.

[Marlyn4k]

For me it's more a case that people will get an impression out of kilter with the reality. Foliage is without doubt one of the strongest one star restaurants (and may well be promoted in January) - the long walk to the toilet, the din from the bar and the fairly impersonal dining room would be genuine observations.

However, the food, wine and service experiences are strong and provided at value for money prices - to banter the point of an 8.15 versus 8.30 booking time is an exercise in pedantry. If Jay feels the need to receive his piece of red carpet (like Michael Winner) perhaps he should book in his own name.

[jayrayner]

Cheap shot. I think everybody should get the red carpet treatment at those prices. And the fuck up with the main course really was dismal. ANyway I wasn't the one who pulled out the 8.15 thing. My piece was about the accretion of detail. But I'm glad you've had good experiences there.

[fisherman]

the red carpet treatment should indeed be enjoyed by all at those prices, if i was told i couldnt book a table for the time i wanted, not because a table wasnt available, but because my needs didnt fit in with their wants, i'm afraid i'd put the phone down and eat elsewhere..........

these things are important in reviews, how you are welcomed both on the phones and in person are vital to your enjoyment of a night out.

[Marlyn4k]

Jay

I'm just wounded on their behalf as they're so under-publicised and the first exposure in a long time is sadly a shotgun to the head of the new restaurant manager.

PS Like your book, gonna review it on our website.

[Andy Lynes]

Anyway I wasn't the one who pulled out the 8.15 thing.

No, that was me and it's me being pedantic about it.

[Gary Marshall]

i cant believe you're giving jay a hard time over the 8.15 thing

The intention isn't to give Jay a hard time, simply to establish if anyone actually ever wants or needs a reservation other than on the hour or the half hour. I'd be interested to know if anyone can recall a specific, recent (say in the last 3 months) example.

yes,

when i went to QC the other friday. My friend had a meeting that would finish at 12.30 in the city i thought 1.15 would be fine, give him time in case his meeting overran and get over to holborn, i called they said we can do 1pm or 1.30 pm.

so i booked for 1.30, turned up about 1.15 and sat down.

to be honest i thought most top end places worked on 15 minutes spacing so they can do the old 'hello mr marshall how nice to see you' routine working out who you are by the time slot.

pretty sure RHR does 15 min slots but i'm not betting the bank on it.

if the restaurant isn't full (as QC wasn't) and they can do a table at the time requested then i really don't see why they should insist on a different time.

I don't see asking for a time at quarter of the hour is in anyway requesting special treatment. It's simply a function of the expected travel time to the restaurant which may be linked to trains, meetings or a host of other factors.

I can't see how anyone would want to prove their influence/status or whatever over a restaurant by 'boasting' of an odd timed reservation.

gary

[jayrayner]

Jay

I'm just wounded on their behalf as they're so under-publicised and the first exposure in a long time is sadly a shotgun to the head of the new restaurant manager.

PS Like your book, gonna review it on our website.

As I said in my piece, it pained me too. Nicholls really is a big man in this world. Re the lack of coverage that was a strategy on their part. they felt Hywel Jones got too many column inches too soon, and that it was a hinderance rather than a help. SO they let Staines keep his head down. When Nicholls talked up his boy to me, it was his way of saying now's a good time to go and have a look.

Which again, only pains me. But I still hold to the point: all this stuff is relevant to the enjoyment of a night out. And I came away from the table thinking why did they have to be such a hassle. So that's the piece I wrote.

Glad you liked the book though. I'll stop by and have a butchers at the review.

[Andy Lynes]

I don't see asking for a time at quarter of the hour is in anyway requesting special treatment.

If you take it in the context of restaurants only offering on the hour or half past the hour, then it is asking for something outside of their normal operations. Similar to ordering something not on their menu.

[MobyP]

The point surely is about flexibility. No one doubts that a top kitchen running on full speed doesn't want their timing thrown off - or alternatively believes it can produce its best effort when given certain time intervals inbetween sittings. But as Jay said, the restaurant wasn't close to being full - presumably over the course of 50 or 60 weeks, they would have had some impression that this would happen - so that inflexibility becomes a burden placed on the customer, rather than a simple act of generosity - given a quick calculation of how full - or not full - they were likely to be.